The times they are a changing.
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You can tell by crazy prices. The industry survives on shrinking population. They sell fewer and fewer items and end up raising prices to compensate. High end industry lost its connection with customers long time ago. It decided to focus on a few rather than on new generation. It started quite some time ago and is still going on. Stores that still exist sell $200K speakers to execs driving McLarens. They don't even have a room with gear for peasants. |
No, because there will always be an interest on obtaining the best sound possible for recorded music. Participation in High End Audio(HEA) has always been limited due to cost. An ARC SP-11 retailed for $5k over 35 years ago, 10 years later a Forsell Statement amplifier had an asking price of $30k. These might be extreme examples but so are the current components some are whining about. HEA as always will never be a mainstream hobby but its extinction is a complete overreaction. |
Being an Audiophile, relating to being interested in recorded music in conjunction with quality of playback (Equipmentphile), has been born as a term from the 1950's. Using this as guidance, then anybody bought into Edisons Phonograph 100+ Years past, with a declared passion for the Tool and Music Replays are able to be referred to as a Audiophile. Audio (sound) Phile (Lover / Admirer) is the basics for the origin of the word, has been corrupted by Marketing Spiel and many variations of the basic meaning over the past 70 years since it has been recognised as a regular used word. In the era when the term Audiophile was to manifest, Source material for recorded music was limited. Tape will have been the best medium with Vinyl Medium being the second to it. Today it is quite different, there are multiple Source Option and many options for the Tools to be used to initiate the Replay of the recorded music. This has expanded on the Numbers of Audiophiles actively participating. Family Members and their friends all Listen to much more music than I do using electronic equipment as the Tools to create a replay of recorded music. Associates through Work, also listen to much more music than I do, all using electronic equipment as tools to create the replay of music. If a Audiophile is some body who enjoys music, especially music reproduced using electronic devices, then the general interactions I have with people daily is strongly suggesting recorded music is extremely attractive to be listened to through electronic devices, by a larger population that at any other time in history. Where these modern electronic tools used to replay music differ to traditional electronic designs, is in their being very portable, and being readily available to be used, enabling an individual to participate in their interest with numerous opportunities. Have a look at the success of live music events, Tickets selling out in minutes, this is the real indicator of how the easy to use Source and Electronic Devices seen so commonly in use are impacting on their users to seek out other musical experiences. The Streaming Services are the ones that really know how many Audiophiles are on this Planet at present. My assumption is that the end figure would excess a multiple of 10K x any figure a forum member would suggest with their limited take on what being an Audiophile means. Audio Equipment used by those who lock themselves away in a room types, are a dying breed, as in the eyes of those who function day to day with the hobby at their fingertips, locking oneself away in a room as a means of living for a hobby will be viewed a miserable experience, almost sharing the same concerns or very similar, for the Obsessive Gamers who lock themselves down into the Gaming World. The modern Audiophile is very astute, being better off keeping their funds for having a few weekends away at Multi Day Music Festivals, enjoying numerous live performances listened to through Electronic Equipment, ( another abstract of being an audiophile). The above mirrors the same that has happened to Photography. There is a estimation that during the entirety of Film Photography, more images are taken Digital in the past Two Years, than the entirety of Film Photos taken historically. How about adding the Gross of all Digital Images taken and then compare the end figure to the Gross of Film. Those with an interest in music and are not seeing the large numbers of Audiophiles during their daily activities, really are locked away in their rooms with the Curtains Drawn. Happy Hi Fidelity and Audiophilia. |
This is a relevant metric, but it could indicate that a fairly rarefied segment of the population with resources is buying the equipment, not the average person. Most of my friends are highly educated and have reasonably good resources (they can afford good audio but they don’t spend on it), and when I ask them to listen, 99% say they never do that. They listen on earbuds or Sonos or in the car. I’m a member of the Colorado Audio Society and have gone to several meetings where there were a large number of people there. There are virtually no members under 50 in the group and maybe none under 40. It looks like the kind of audience you’d see at a classical music concert. I’ve not been to a headphones convention but I know that skews younger. Since those folks have college debt and high rent prices to contend with, I’m not sure that many are buying multi-thousand dollar headphones. Have you seen this blog post?
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@hilde45 People under 50 that can afford the pricier items have demanding jobs and families. I would count myself in that group and have 0 time to go to Audiophile group outing. I am happy if I can listen 2-3 hours a week. The luxury of time + money usually does not exist until later in life. It doesn’t mean that there are not a lot of mid age people interested or participating in the hobby. |
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Let's put it this way: my kids (now 26) were exposed to high end audio from the time when they were born. Interest in my setting them up with an audio system when they got their first apartment: zero. Not enough room, and why would they want that if they can stream anything they want from phone or computer? On the other hand, my stepdaughter, who's now 40, is still using my hand-me-down Maggie SMGa's and Rega Planar 3; for her, vinyl was (and is) trendy. |
Interesting anecdotal evidence. Something to combine with the survey data. Thanks. |
I have a younger friend, around 45, prosperous and with refined musical tastes, whose children are now nearing independence and wants to spend an evening hearing his favorite recordings via a serious playback system. All signs suggest he grasps the deficiencies of the "smart speaker" world is ready to explore the magical world of serious two-channel listening.. Two years ago, I helped another younger friend in the same project. His wife and children constantly remark that they have never heard music sound so good. He doesn't even own a preamp; uses a mid-fi streamer/DAC straight into the amp, and recently asked for help in adding a vinyl rig. So, anecdotally, there are grounds for optimism about the future of our little "hobby" or niche obsession. |
It's undeniable that at a younger age most must work hard and do multiple chores to run a family and that undoubtedly puts the research of quality sound as a distant secondary endeavor, if at all. Equally true is most retired people with the means to sit back and enjoy the roses are in dire need of finding some kind of hobby that will enhance their life. Anyway, that is pretty much how it went for me. I grew up in my teens listening to rock music nearly everyday, but not in any audiophile form other than on my dad's system. Then in my twenties, I dove into my professional life, unfortunately no longer being able to give much time to listening to music. It wasn't until the business world ended for me that I could finally get back into music and have been on an audiophile path ever since. I honestly know of no one in my younger friends or family who has any desire to get involved with the hobby. They enjoy listening to my setup but would never consider following it. At least at this point in their life. |
I think we (as in audiophile, studied listening) have always been a niche. When I was a teen into my 20s, listening was a social activity-- there was much less home entertainment to compete. Into my 30s and 40s, I participated in an audio club in NY but got to a point where had far less time to listen, and was not interested in futzing around with turntables and tubes (my long time systems, since the early-mid 70s). Home theater became an easy way to push a couple buttons and be entertained when I was doing so much traveling for work. By my 50s, I got back into two channel audio and revamped the main system entirely. Now, in my dotage, I have the time and interest to continue this type of "studied" listening. I have met young people who are pursuing a similar course, though they have not yet reached their peak earning power. That doesn’t matter, it’s more a mindset and approach than money spent. But, without wide-ranging data, all I have is my anecdotal experience-- and believe we have always been in the minority (except perhaps in the ’70s, when hanging out and listening was a "thing to do" for our generation). |
@ghasely I think everyone should question the value/implication of this data: "The three best years for modern era high end audio sales in terms of units sold and revenue were 2021, 2022 and 2023." a. How were the 'best years of audio - revenue' adjusted for inflation? b. How were the 'best years of audio - units sold' adjusted for population growth? We need to compare 'apples to apples'. If these adjustments are lacking, the opening statement has little relevance.
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This question has been coming up for decades with lots of reasons that it is a dying pursuit, but the number of products continues to proliferate. I remember watching in awe as old guys came in and carted off the most recent Audio Research component… far more expensive than I could dream of purchasing. Well, now I’m the old guy…and after me there will be followed by other younger old guys. |
Earning Power has nothing whatsoever to do with listening to music via electronic devices. My experiences to date are there is very very little snobbery to be found in music replays as a Hobby, there is not agenda to keep the Riff Raff out, no exclusivity for the membership. That is not saying there is not individuals who share their interest similar in this Hobby who are not snobs, some of these individuals most likely are members within a forum, and some may even be frequent posters on their chosen forum/forums. A Hobby and the attention it can generate through the usage of surrounding supporting networks, takes all sorts to assist with the cultivating the growth. I am not prejudiced towards any sharing their interest. It is well noted on this forum and many others, exceptional listening experiences are able to be produced using electronic devices that are not stupid expensive. As mentioned in a previous post, there are today in use numerous sources, the individual is more defined today by their choice of Source and Medium used, than their chosen music genre. Years ago when in discussion you were Wed to a Vinyl or CD Source / Vinyl CD Source, with a specific liking for a Genre/ Multiple Genre's. Today an individual is a Data Streamer, Digital Recorded File user, Phone user , Hard Drive user , CD user , Analogue Tape user , Vinyl user or any combination. Even a typical found in the home Desktop PC or Laptop are considered today a replay Source worthwhile using for Stored Digital Recordings or Streamed Data Recordings. Any will be considered Audiophile in relation to the end sound that can be produced, to achieve an End Sound that is deemed attractive does not require silly monies to achieve. |
@tom2015 +++ you are spot on with your post “People under 50 that can afford the pricier items have demanding jobs and families.” I am a perfect example of that. Influenced by my older brothers I started going to concerts and buying records at 10. Reading audio magazines, buying the best components I could afford doing odd jobs through high school and college. Then demanding work (TV/Audio Buyer and Sales manager), getting married, 3 kids, house demands, tight budget living in CA - music was not a priority. Then 3-4 years ago being retired, kids in college, free time the hobby was reborn. This time without the financial restraints and guilt but focused on value and not going too crazy. (although my wife thinks otherwise) Hopefully this trend will continue into the upcoming generations for the minority that really cherish hearing music in a room rather than earbuds. Time will tell but there should be some screaming deals on used gear we leave behind. |
@hilde45 Indeed, as you know better than most due to your profession of interpreting data accurately and objectively for a living, the data can convince either side of a topic that they reading the tea leaves appropriately.
I posit that there has never been a time in our hobby where competent music systems and specifically, access to music, has been more readily available. Now, that access is different and the definition of "what is hifi" is different to different groups. When many on Audiogon were getting interested, there was a local hifi ship and it served equals parts retail/service shop and audio hangout. We ALL remember those days and there were more than a few who hung out and never bought.
The pandemic shined a bright light on every segment of the industry. You discovered quickly which companies had an accidental business model and supply chain relationship, different abilities to act/react to the changing landscape and wildly different demand curves depending on the product and the manufacturer's ability to deliver. We experienced 20 years of change in three years.
Everything is going to be ok...hifi will live on and shift just fine with or without us. If objectively analyzing generations of data tells us anything, it is dominated by the fact that (A) the law of large numbers is actually a reasonable predictor and (B) every generation believes they are exceptional and most generations are incorrect. LOL. |
It is a changing landscape. I'm 65 and enjoy my stereo system and speakers. My nephew is into jam bands (Goose, Grateful Dead, Phish, Widespread Panic, Spafford) and enjoys listening to albums and recorded shows, but he mainly listens through a headphone stack, not speakers. He has a decent 2.1 system in his living room but it is used 95% of the time for movies, not music. |
I always thought boomers were the greatest generation being born of parents who fought in WWII and all that went with that. Turns out you can add audiophilia as well as one of the defining qualities. 😄 Snark aside, the same questions were asked when digital watches came out as many foresaw the demise of mechanical watches. I'm still laughing at that one. All the best, |
I don't believe the demand for high quality audio equipment will go to zero, but like horse racing, another passion of mine, it seems to have less appeal for younger generations. Some of this relates to financial matters obviously, but I think it goes beyond that. Music is more portable than its ever been even though portable music is generally far below high quality. That appeals to the younger folks as it suits their lifestyle and their incredible dependence on cell phones. Not much interest in what we would call critical listening, or in making the investment most of us have made. My daughters-both in their 30s-love music and I have the iTunes receipts to prove it. They cannot understand, however, my affinity for sitting still for 2--3 hours at a time listening to music. They are perfectly content with Spotify and AirPods Maybe this will change as technology improves. Eventually, portable music will be delivered at a quality that is unavailable now-might make a difference. |
Audiophiles are born by hearing music on a system of someone who has better equipment than he has. We are certainly no longer in the era of audio stores on every street corner, but so long as there's a saving remnant there's no reason why things might not turn around. It's the height of foolishness to think that the latest turn is the last one. One phenomenon that bucks the trend is the renaissance in headphones caused by computer gaming and portable devices. Sort of like dinosaurs evolving into birds but it is a move in a particular direction. |
@kerrybh +1 Horse racing has a very similar analytical structure(decision making) when compared to High End Audio! |
@rok2id
Aren't Toyota, VW and Stellantis(Fiat-Chrysler) #1, 2 &4 as far as sales worldwide? What could be more flourishing? |
I went to a private MBL event and the actual owners/buyers there were in my age bracket and slightly older, which is 40s/50s. Axpona, on the other hand, was likely more of a demo in their ~60/70s.
In my case, I had to plan months in advance to attend Axpona and blocked out a weekend. Despite this, I still was only able to attend Friday. It'd be very difficult to go to regular meetups or events, which I'd imagine is true for many working-age audiophiles. |
Those audiophiles who can visit Axpona and similar shows seem both highly dedicated to the hobby and have money and time to burn. That's a hallmark of an older generation. Plus, music development, production, and consumption is changing - vinyl resurgence notwithstanding. The ease of streaming trumps fidelity for many. And since most younger don't ever have the chance to listen through a high end system, that remains a barrier. Plus (again), with Sonos and soundbars now delivering such (relatively) decent sound at affordable pricing, I would venture that many don't see the necessity for fidelity - especially as the video/visual component of domestic entertainment is much more engaging than it ever has been. |
@rok2id There is plenty of midrange gear around, and a huge home theater/distributed audio market that targets that segment. Just check out Best Buy or Target or Wally World or Crutchfield. Sony, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, etc. still pump out lots of under a grand units, and not just Marantz, but other nameplates in the higher end do the same. Parasound may make megabucks gear, but they also make a lot of entry level gear. Plus there are companies like Emotiva and Schitt and Topping and others who market directly for the mid level consumer. I remember my first encounter with the audiophile market in the 70s. Pretentious salespeople tried to upsell customers and were downright rude when rebuffed. (Little has changed, alas.) I researched speakers for my cousin, all of 15 at the time, but interested in good sound. We found a well regarded speaker that he could buy with what he had saved from his summer job. We drove the 50 miles to Raleigh to buy a pair, having found two dealers that stocked them. The first dealer did not want to honor the price he gave on the phone, and when we told him that was the budget, he sneered "so you really are in THAT price range?" We just turned and left, going to the other dealer. Their quote was more, but they honored it, and treated us to an audition of the next level, AFTER the transaction. They understood the concept of priming the pump. The first dealer did not get a bigger sale, nor even the extra forty bucks. The second dealer earned a lifetime of repeat business and referrals. I estimate my referrals added 30-50 grand to his sales, all gained from not humiliating a teenager over a 300 dollar purchase. That first dealer is the one that makes people, as the younger generations say, cringe. Wine tasting groups and stores can have the same vibe. People are still buying and enjoying wine and spirits at all prices and with all levels of sophistication and appreciation. How we buy and share our interests has changed, but fundamentally, much remains the same. We all seek people who share our interests and respect our tastes and circumstances. |
Of course you are correct. I am just letting off steam over the current prices. When I think of some of the inexpensive stuff I have purchased in the past, like Harman Kardon HK3490 ($299) and Marantz PM7200 ($500) and Polk Lsim705 ($1500pr), and then consider what it will cost to replace them with similar items. Nearest Marantz would be $3000! But in some sense, audio has never been cheaper. Maybe I just like the wrong brands. Thanks Cheers |
Every piece of evidence I see indicates that the audio industry is flourishing.
There is no doubt that the ultra high end is on fire but it gets a disproportionate amount of publicity. While everyone rants about six-figure gear the mid priced stuff flies ot the door. |
Gen X here and love my system started way back in my 30s that would be the late 90s and in that time only met a handful of others into good sound in person. Outside of CAF and at my dealers that is and a few friends have gotten into vinyl and have starter systems and that's cool. There is so much good gear out there now and still tons of affordable stuff. |
@ghasley — I agree. The challenge of putting together a great audio system with little money is SO easy today compared to earlier. Especially with used stuff and a little knowledge. I agree with your posit. Here's my posit: there is a level of sustained attention required for audio listening. That is why the gear matters. The more distraction there is, the less people engage in sustained attention. That's why audiophiles are a vanishing breed. Distraction will win and attention will lose — and you won't need expensive gear for the distractions.
I still don't get why people who think a thread is worthless take the time to sound off. I mean, don't they have a closet to go in and yell? Or a dog to kick? Please don't answer me. I don't care.
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Source quality, for the listener, has never been better. Streaming pretty much makes CD quality ubiquitous and many systems are capable of delivering more. Analog is there for those who have or are curious to try those media. Considering the source limitations of a generation ago, a worldwide streaming capability at CD quality was unthinkable at a consumer level. Even in analog, the equipment selection is an order of magnitude greater than when I bought my first (modest, college student) turntable. The web has delivered a range of gear no brick and mortar-based market ever could. Asia has become an innovative and increasingly prosperous market for every kind of gear which in turn has made many new products available for very reasonable prices everywhere. These are the best of times in audio. |
@rok2id You are right The high end is rather, uh, high-priced. The NYT noted a system at an audio show in 1975 that cost over 6 grand, and noted that the entry point for audiophile listening had crossed the Rubicon of 2 grand. In 2023 dollars, that would be nearly 35000 for high end and close to 12 grand for entry tier gear. That is pretty much the same as today. But in other electronic segments, from televisions to tablets, prices have dropped with innovation. I agree with some here that the ultra high end systems, costing 75-100K plus get outsized attention at shows, just like the Lamborghinis and Rolls Royces at car shows, but that is bling culture at work. Two forces are churning. Income inequality has produced a larger class of multimillion- and billionaires for whom price is no object. But, even though the more-money-than-sense crowd is bigger than ever, the thick end of that market, the nouveau riche, is interested in installing a movie theater in their house, not a concert hall. The vast majority of sales of the top spec'd equipment is to enthusiasts, who are stretching every dollar because they are obsessed with ultimate sound. No doubt, the internet has made it easier for ambitious engineers to connect with those serious audiophiles, and niche markets command premium prices. What amazes me is how many smart gear designers charge prices that are not low, but nowhere near premium priced, heavily advertised and reviewed brands. I recently auditioned an amplifier pair that is easily as good as any I have ever heard. In the designer's house, no less. The price is at the very top end of what I can save for, but a third of what it would cost from the top nameplates. Like a fine restaurant, they build to order. |
@simao I would agree with you that convenience is more valued than fidelity, but there is nothing really different about the current generation, as @roadcykler pointed out. I listened to FM (and AM) on lo fi car radios and table top sets and "transistors," and listened to records on my family's console hi fi when I was a teen. As I began to develop more appreciation for the music, and production became more sophisticated, I climbed the audiophile ladder. Nowadays, the kids enter music via MP3s, "curated" stations, wretched earbuds, and yes, the radio, which is still the dominant way that people get their music fix. It's no worse, in many ways better, than what I had. And a small but significant number will graduate to better sound. It reminds me, as a photographer, of when people complain the cell phone is killing cameras, even photography itself. Over my lifetime, and before, it was claimed that the Brownie, the Instamatic, the point and shoot, and even the original 35 mm film camera were going to overshadow serious photography. They are all gone or dwindling, and the stand alone dedicated camera chugs on. There have always been lots of snapshots, and a lot of very enjoyable listening of not the highest fidelity, and there is nothing wrong with either, but in the end, they have little effect on the serious enthusiast's experience. |
Very interesting subject. My kids, 23 and 26 yo, have zero interest in my system. Too bulky, too much of everything. This is despite probably a 50k investment over the years (system, LPs, and CDs). Neither want it. Too much work. We own a 2nd house that my daughter lives in while going to school. It is like pulling teeth to get her or her boyfriend to mow the yard. Just a different mentality now a days. I suspect this lack of enthusiasm rolls down hill. However, I suspect there will always be a niche. That niche can not just support high end users. The market would collapse. One can't say that all high end audio equipment is out of reach for the common man. Look at Schiit. Great product, great price point. I think there will always be options available but maybe not as many as previously. |
Many of the younger folks are not into acquiring things that tie them down. That’s why streaming with their phones or earbuds is so popular…in addition to being way less expensive. Many are also controlled by what’s socially acceptable too. I believe Audiophile's will always exist as these younger gen’s grow up, get more disposable cash and they become are less mobile. I see the expansion of hifi desktop speakers, powered speakers and hifi integrated systems as a means to attract the upcoming audiophiles. |
Bottom line for me. Industry is doing fine. Look at any of the recommendation threads here. 1 question, 100 brands mentioned and recommended. No real consolidation, no companies dominating the market, lots of new entries every year and very few companies that seem to be shutting down. Especially the amount of cable companies always amazes me. Low initial investment and high margins it seems. Forum is always active, I think we are in good shape… |
