I've always been under the impression that your front main speakers should be angled so that the "face" of the speaker is basically perpendicular with the listener's face when viewing the speakers from the sweet spot. I do however see others placing the speakers parallel or inline with the surface of the wall behind the speakers. I'm wondering, how much loss to the sonic sound stage this creates.
Mostly depends on speaker design, their size, how far they are apart, your listening distance and placing in room.
If you want a hot presentation (more high frequency energy) choose good toe in and if you want coherency on a wider area decrease it.
Keep in mind that toe in alters high frequency response, the level of side walls reflection, and the relationship of direct and early reflected sounds.
Only experimentation can give you the best coherency considering also what kind of tonality your speaker has and how wide you want your sweet spot.
Tannoy recommends pretty extreme toe-in. I own a pair and I have them toed in as much is possible in their current location. To me, they sound very good this way.
Generally speaking, the more you toe-in speakers, the more solid and precise the center image will seem, but, this comes at the expense of a less expansive (wide) soundstage. You need to experiment, that is the only way to know what is right for your situation and personal taste. the same actually goes with all aspects of speaker and listening position placement--a lot of trial and error is required. Don't for get to also dial in speaker height and rake angle (how much the speaker is tipped backwards (i.e., the degree to which it is angled toward the ceiling).
Keep in mind that toe in alters high frequency response, the level of side walls reflection, and the relationship of direct and early reflected sounds.
^^ This! +1
Early side wall reflections are interpreted by the ear as harshness. So you toe in the speakers to reduce the amount of sidewall reflections, allowing the direct radiation to mask the side wall reflections. Sometimes you might even have to have the speakers cross in front of you to do this.
Experimentation always required. Starting position, “cross the beams” 18” behind your head in the listening position. I put a tall object behind my listening chair and use a laser measurer to point the speakers. This has the added value of checking the distances are the same.
This was the recommended position for my speakers. But I noticed the sound field was restricted… and my speakers are known to disappear. So, I gradually changed the toe in until there was none… still had a strong central image and the sound field opened up and the speakers disappeared.
You just can’t be sure until you try. More toe out until the central image starts to get weak. It is great practice because it helps demonstrate what a sound field is and how it works.
if you have a large enough room… pull the speakers out another foot. Reduce or enlarge the space between speakers. Each will show you another variable of the sound stage.
Really depends, but often included in the manual. Focal likes little to no toe-in.
Also, some find B&W sounds much better on midrange axis than tweeter axis. Meaning, you want to sit lower, or angle the speaker up.
As a speaker maker Troels Gravesen once commented, and I agree, even when we try to design our speakers to be listened to on tweeter axis sometimes the design just doesn't work out and your best listening position is somewhere in between the tweeter and the midrange.
Magnepan recommends very very little toe-in, extremely dependent on design and room. But best place to start is again, owners manual. You think they write those things for their health?
As others have said, entirely depends on the speaker. But keep in mind in order to get a sound stage, or a wider sound stage… Sometimes you have to reduce the tow in. I had such Cornwallis before I had Harbeths, and the Harbeths are totally different animal. I had them towed in as you described, and I was getting booming bass, and virtually no sound stage. I reread the manual again, and discovered that in fact they are supposed to have very little tow in. And sure enough, in flattening them out , they totally blossomed. Experiment! Your ears will give you the answer.
I'm happy to report that my Walsh don't present me with where to aim my toes. *S*
My other speakers? Tweak as desired, but ones' space will rule the day. It can make for a musical weekend...although getting up 'n down to dial the degrees of in~out can feel like a marathon of up 'n down physically. ;)
Any and all of the suggested means are appropriate, as the room ultimately rules.
Pick some selections that suggests the 'air' that you're hunting for and have at it.
Mild introduction of ones' fav beverage or inhalation therapy to ward off the physical demands required can be helpful.
Advising ones' significant other' that these events are about to occur helps.
SO may bail, endure, or seek a seat as desired.
Opting for the first may involve 'expenses' as you may have already experienced. ;)
or to make it real easy you can go on the cardas website and they have a program there where you just put in the width of your room and it'll give you the exact measurement from the front wall and the sidewall to put your speakers and I tried it and it works beautifully.
Whatever you do, do not trust your own ears...this only leads you down the rabbit hole of having your own tastes and opinions which is never a good idea. Opinions of strangers and those claiming expertise on a system they can't actually hear is all you need. Experimenting with speakers to the point where they sound good to you? Really? What makes "you" so special? Another note..."extreme tow-in" means the speakers are facing completely away from you, which is nothing if not extreme.
In a well acoustically treated room where first reflections are specially well controlled, no toe in is best in my experience. Wide soundstage, no harshness at all and yet great defined center imaging. The key to speaker toe in is the room. Never had no toe in in any prior listening room with good results before my house of stereo. It pays high dividends to spend money on your listening room. If you don't, you will NEVER know how good your current equipment could sound.
There are a few good cell phones to measure speaker angle toe in. Just do a search to find them. Simple to use & accurate.
Fstein, I curious what angle & distance from the floor did you find was most effective in driving your neighbor insane? Was that specific circumstance covered in the JBL manual???? Hilarious!
I have two systems currently. The one with Acoustat panel speakers are aimed just to the right/left of my listening position. The KEF’s are barely toed in, maybe 1°-2°’s. So no two speakers are going to be the same. I’ve had the KEF speakers about 6 months now and I’m still experimenting with them.
i agree, he is an old hand, been at this forever, you need to stick with him, his dry style/delivery, he is all substance no fluff, honest and forthright
for all noob and noob questions, it is a no brainer recommendation to seek out his videos on topic x, if there is one, watch it first, beginning to end... what he does is a real service to the audiophile community worldwide
Vandersteen says to place my speakers (Model 5) facing straight ahead, but I like to toe them in. After experimenting with scores, maybe hundreds, of possible orientations (ask my wife!) I wound up with the speakers facing straight ahead.
But now I KNOW I like them that way.
Have fun!
All these brand related suggestions are meaningless.
Each speaker (sometimes within a common brand) has a unique dispersion angle in the horizontal plane. This is what you are addressing with toe in. You need to know what that is, both by reading (owners manuals) and by listening. This is when tape measure and string can help you map out this dispersion pattern within a space. Keep in mind this pattern is truly only in play near and around crossover, not the entire bandwidth so the further you get from the crossover points the less the spec is true. The spec defines the smallest dispersion angles not the widest. The purpose is to let you know it will never be less than the stated angle .
Once you get the horizontal angles (direct sound) mapped out, then it’s time to address the first reflections (called indirect sound, or the bounce). Using the string to determine (visually) the dispersion angle of your speaker in your room, you can see how much energy is hitting the walls vs your listening location. if its half the dispersion, you are in trouble. If it’s a tiny corner, its normal. Sometimes toe in is used to reduce this first reflection energy by lessening how much dispersion hits the walls. [You can actually hear this bounce by placing your ear an inch away from the wall. Have your ear face the wall to reduce sound that is not from the wall itself, only the bounce]. The degree of toe in will be less with a very smooth dispersion angle speaker (usually using direct radiators ie cones and domes) than a narrow horizontal dispersion speaker (horns). The spec for a speaker might say 110 horizontal but the real heart of the response may sound good to you across 90 or even 60. This is why listening is important, validating how good the spec is, how well they measured it, how honest they are, if they even know what the horizontal spec is. If it's not stated, assume it's so bad they don't want to print it OR they don't know how to measure it properly. Sometimes using pink noise is an easier way to hear bandwidth changes than music. Small differences in dispersion are easy to identify with pink noise.
Once the horizontal dispersion area is mapped out, you can develop a plan to deal with first reflections via absorption panels. Where a bunch of energy hits the side walls, this will mess up image big time. [This is why we say to get the speakers away from side walls]
Once that is sorted (not a trivial step) you can look at vertical dispersion. If you are out of the sweet spot due to vertical angle, it will the same effect audibly as being out the dispersion pattern in horizontal- Mid and HF will be reduced and you’ll hear less details, less image. With Vertical, the experiment is with different heights of stands or heights of seating position. Most times well engineered speakers are optimized with a down angle in HF vertical dispersion, so you are better off sitting below the vertical center axis, versus above it [this is why I never get people at high fi shows standing in front of speakers- they will NEVER hear it properly]. THis is also why we never want people to flip speakers upside down, the dispersion is now optimized to hit your ceiling. So vertical dispersion is more listening, educated experimenting, testing. Every speaker is different, just plan on that.
SO what you see in pictures of other speakers and toe in may have ZERO to do with your situation and your room. I’ve had the same exact speaker toed in severely in some rooms with bad first reflection problems and no absorption, The same speaker in a larger, good sounding room might have no toe in.
In some cases, you see that because the owner either refuses to compromise the vest look for the best sound, or they simply don’t believe the difference is worth compromising the look (WAF can come into play). Of course, they might have found that what you are questioning, is the best placement for sound. Can’t speculate which case it is, with certainty.
I have my modestly-sized, stand-mounted Nola Boxers canted very slightly inward. I found the sound a bit sterile and small in image size when the speakers were directly pointing at my ears. The image I get with the speakers just off parallel might not be as sharply, scientifically precise as it could be but it's much more natural-sounding and spacious.
i think perhaps we are making this topic of toe-in angle harder than it needs to be
1) start with manufacturer suggestion
2) if it is a common speaker, note the suggestions of other users, perhaps
3) rotate in or out based on your preference, just do toe in/out each speaker the same degree... try varying increments
speaker maker knows the dispersion pattern of the speaker ...but doesn’t know your room, how reflective the first side bounce is, the dimensions of your listening triangle... so some common sense and experimentation and listening is need to assess what is ’goldilocks’ setting...
Not only is the dispersion pattern important, but also the distance one sits to the speaker-another thing that the designer starts with a particular assumption that might not fit one's particular setup. High frequency energy dissipates faster than do the lower frequencies, so that if one sits farther back, the highs sound attenuated compared to close in listening. At an audio show, I once heard a speaker built around a very expensive Voxativ driver that sounded extremely bright when I sat in what appears to be the sweet spot; but, when I went back another fifteen feet (in theory the angle actually put me more directly in line, so highs should increase), the sound became much better balanced.
The high frequency balance can be adjusted somewhat by changing the toe-in to compensate for such effects as distance from speaker, room reflections, etc. But, to me, the biggest change one can expect is on the focus of the center image (toe-in increases focus) and the left to right spread of the image (toe-in decreases the spread), such that one is trying to find the right compromise.
2. Distance of listening position from speakers (assuming this is adjustable).
3. Distance from side walls (corollary: distance between speakers).
4. Toe-in.
Whenever you make a change to 1, 2, or 3, you need to adjust 4 to keep it the same angle, but in addition if you change 1, 2, or 3, a different toe-in may prove to be optimal.
But, to me, the biggest change one can expect is on the focus of the center image (toe-in increases focus) and the left to right spread of the image (toe-in decreases the spread), such that one is trying to find the right compromise.
I think this is application specific. More toe-in will decrease reflections off the wall, so that should help with image placement. Less toe-in will increase reflections from the walls which makes things seem more spacious, but can also confuse your hearing.
If you have no wall reflections, then all toe-in does is change frequency response.
Ultimately, you are constrained by your environment. Each case is individual and must involve experimenting to find the optimal balance between frequencies and soundstaging. Away from the wall is generally better, with an unequal distance to the side walls and just enough toe in to achieve center fill and realistic soundstaging.
I am at a quandary over this very issue. From the day I installed my speakers I had them toed in to aim about two feet behind my head. After a year of listening and then going to a local audio store. I thought there is no way my speakers are set up right. Like even sitting in dead center, was like I knew where the speakers were. and a little too top end. So for S&G I toed them right out flat. And low and behold. the most beautiful sound and soundstage I've witnessed for the first time with my speakers. More bass. More clarity. Flat out. No toe. Go figure. That's where they are staying until some expert listens to them and can explain why it should be anything different. How is this anomaly possible?
Glad to hear you got you got you speakers toe in dialed in!
I guess I don’t understand the quandary. Every listening space is radically different. Virtually all aspects of audio are “it depends” because every system / listening space is different..
I bet if you moved your speakers away from each other or towards each other, or away from the wall in front,.. or put sound absorbing material on the wall in front, on the sides and / or behind you… you can get additional sizable improvements in sound.
as for a longer answer. I do not think I can add anything of interest that has not already been said.
As a general rule, I keep them mostly parallel with the rear wall, toed in maybe a couple of degrees at best, but sometimes I need a change, and I toe them in.
in other words, not only does it depend on your room and equipment, it depends on your mood that day.
Getting it right is like getting to Carnegie Hall, practice, practice, practice.
I've had my Wharfedale Linton speaker stands for a couple of days now and with my JBL 4319 monitors in the same space and position, I have the widest sweet spot imaginable.
I got this cheap couch a while back that's ergonomically perfect for my height and I can move anywhere in the 56" seating width and still hear what I can in the exact middle. Never had that happen before.
All I lose is the center image stability, and it's perfectly fine for casual listening. These new stands puts the top third of the mid range driver just below my ear and almost halves the distance between it and the tweeter.
They're toed in to just an inch or so outside my ears so all this tells me I can reduce the toe in some and still retain the coverage of the horizontal spread and move the outside limits of the soundstage some to what I was used to.
They look rather imposing next the the TV (sitting up that high) but the additional amounts of musical info I'm getting is wonderful. The only trade off was a slight lessening of the base which turned out to just be a loss of bloom as the base tightened up some. (I used to have them on some low and angels back stands much like the L100 come with).
It's moments like these that make this hobby so much fun.
I usualy have 55 inches between center of the speakers. I move them closer together, 45 inches. There is more focus and details, the bass is less boomy because of the left side wall. I put just a little toe-in. it is realy more musical and coherent, so positionning is a must to experiment with, absolutly.
Nice system! 45” - 55” in general would be a very short base, but as always very system / room dependent. Looking at your system / room it looks completely appropriate.
In addition to Toe-in, people often forget that speaker height and tilt angle are also helpful tweaks. For a stand mounted speaker, lowering it and tilting it back can increase bass response. I have large floor standers, but I've found that putting them on a pair of 4x4's (raising them 3.5") reduces LF boominess, and get's the tweeter/mid angle just right for my listening position. I've tried 6" stands, and that thinned out the LF's too much, and ruined the tweeter/mid alignment. My toe-in is to have the speakers pointed directly at me. (this is for my old B&W Matrix 801-S2's).
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