Adding a “safe haven” forum for discussion of tweaks?


I think we can all agree that threads about tweaks like fuses, stones, mats, power conditioners etc. stir up all kinds of controversy, conflict and ill will.

 

Short of banning discussion of these controversial topics, is there another solution to this problem?

 

I got this idea from teo_audio’s comments about a solution implemented at Canuck audio on another thread:

 

“Canuck audio tames it by having a cable and tweak area for threads. Where any counter to the idea that such things are functional (in attempt or in analysis), is not tolerated.

 

Meaning.. threads where people discuss tweaks, or mods or cables and so on, if a naysayer posts there, and interrupts the discussion, in any way, they get their posts deleted. And...if the given naysayer can’t hold their tongue, after said deletion-ish warnings..... they will, rapidly, via any repeats in behavior, find themselves banned from the forum. They have to grow up, or get lost.”

 

You may not like parts of his description, but I think the idea has real merit.

 

I propose a new “safe haven” sub-forum, with some special rules, for the discussion of tweaks. These rules would ONLY apply to this specific sub-forum, the current rules would continue as they are in all other areas.

 

The special rules would be along these lines:

 

Posts that categorically deny the possibility of tweaks having any effect or value are not allowed.

 

Posts proclaiming tweaks to be “scams” “cons” etc. are not allowed.

 

Posts that directly state, or imply, that another poster is lying, are not allowed.

 

Posts that make absolute negative statements like “Science proves it can’t work.” are not allowed.

 

Posts demanding measurements, controlled listening tests etc. are not allowed.

 

Posts that express skepticism (without making absolute negative statements), ask tough questions, or request more information are welcome.

 

Of course, some who hold the above opinions may object, but they would still be able to express those opinions in all other parts of the forum, just like they always have.

 

What do you think?

tommylion

I agree with you, in the meanwhile I think you should go to Audio Asylum for that discussion.

Aside from the fact that I am already invested here, I find the format on AA really cumbersome.

What I think is, won't work. Besides, we already have it. We already have people saying very clearly where they stand. Just look how clear you were to let everyone know, and how little that did to stop the same old boorish behavior. 

 

A classic problem. Fascinating, really, when you dig into the philosophical underpinnings. In terms of nuts and bolts what do we do however, well sorry but this site has officially abandoned us. There are no good solutions. Not that I can think of anyway. The one that seems to work best, or should I say least bad, is ignore and report. 

Hard to do. Some people are such juicy targets in their ineptitude it is hard to resist. But resist we must. You are on the right track. Good luck.

I know I am probably tilting at windmills, but I had to put it out there😉

D

Don't let it discourage you. 

All the best,

Nonoise

Well as I’ve always said. Post your opinion once and move on. Not respond to everyone on the forum. Repeated responces apposed to the collection of data and continued harrassment after being asked to stop.. That’s an issue, but not a problem. ADD a simple patch to the software that prohibits the user to post any further on THAT thread if it detects multible moderator deleations or other user complaints.

 

Pay attention Agon programmers this is a GREAT IDEA..

 

Easy fix, let the behavior reflect the correct responce. IF it’s done enough times within a time frame. Then there is a lock out for a week up to a 30 days.. Everone is treated equal. It is ALL SW driven..

 

Actual threats.. Don’t be silly.. ONE 90 day time out.. Good By forever after that..

 

Regards

My personal observations are that this really is driven by the OP.

Discussionsi about preferences seem to stay civil ( as much as any other thread ) but often apparent vendor threads show up which get deservedly bashed. They read something like 

 

"I just tried this new Baba Yaga Purple fuse in my Sansui receiver and it's besting every other amplifier I had ever heard.  I can't wait to get the cryogenically treated version!"

Did you have to bring Mussorgsky into this?

Post removed 

The best solution would be an ignore button. Life is too short and precious to waste on boorish know-it-alls.

I've seen a separate section for this on other sites. Unfortunately, I don't think it helps curb negative responses.  You just have to ignore posts from those that spoil a discussion.  Wish them a good day,and move on. 

@jperry +1

@tommylion So you want a safe space? Not sure that will work and in real life it is debateble if it works on college campuses. They have created an entire generation of softies that is for sure.

But if Agon created it I would respect its boundries....oh who am I kidding no I would not...yes I would....no, no I would not, dang the bats are back.

 

 

I agree with you, in the meanwhile I think you should go to Audio Asylum for that discussion.

@tommylion 

'Posts that categorically deny the possibility of tweaks having any effect or value are not allowed.'

No

 

'Posts proclaiming tweaks to be “scams” “cons” etc. are not allowed.'

No

 

'Posts that directly state, or imply, that another poster is lying, are not allowed.'

No

 

'Posts that make absolute negative statements like “Science proves it can’t work.” are not allowed'

No

 

'Posts demanding measurements, controlled listening tests etc. are not allowed.'

No

 

In fact all of the above suggestions amount to little more than plain censorship.

Don't you think there's enough censorship in the world already?

Without debate there's every chance of this forum descending into little more a vehicle for free advertising. 

Often for products that bear more relationship to snake oil than sonic excellence.

A few would be entrepreneurs might prefer it like that, but what about the common good?

 

If a product is good enough to make it on its own merit, then it's good to withstand closer inspection, isn't it?

 

If you want a seperate section for such unfounded speculations, then fair enough.


Just make it clear that it has nothing to do with any accepted orthodoxy, evidence or any scientific reasoning. If you want to call it a cultish indulgence, go ahead.

It might be fun but you mustn't imply it's factual.

Remember, times are hard for many people and we would
not want folks new inexperienced to audio to throw money away chasing someone else's hand shadows, would we?

There are many products out there that can be tried at home,in your own system,that offer a money back guarantee. Yet people still will argue until their lips fall off,that it's snake oil.  
 

     Now,certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I'm the last person to think that censorship in anyway is a good thing.  However,some folks are certain that they need to save someone from making a decision.  The way I was brought up was everyone is responsible for their own actions.  I prefer to come up with my own conclusions.  I certainly don't care for people to tell me how to spend my money.  Now,if I ask that particular question, well that's a different story.  If I ask,should I try some new fuse,or pay my electric bill......... 

I was under the impression that this is a discussian forum.

If someone goes overboard (outside the posting rules - either way on the "tweak thing", or anything else) the posts are usually deleted is seems.

I've read comments here that certain previous posters have been banned for breaking the rules, but don't know if this is in fact true.

Don't see a problem with the current system.

DeKay

 

 

Agree with Dekay.  All this censoring and banning is not needed.

I am ferociously against censorship...(save extreme exceptional case)

 

Gang of identical cloned mind people, of any kind, annoy me more than some trolls....

"Tweakers" or "anti-tweakers" ressemble sometimes each other too much in beliefs...I prefer specific  debates in complex matter like audio...

By the way it is in a long debate for more than a month with someone some disparaged to be a troll here, that i learned the much in my 7 years of experiments.... Thanks to him, even if i was completely in the other side of the trench i worked a lot to understand "timbre" debating with him...

We are not children around a table waiting to be moderated... Are you?

I am not....

 

 

I was bless with perfect ear but never try convince people what I have is good. Some guy have trash can system tune ear and and claim they have all answer. It mental incapacity problem for some guy. That okay no ban them either but ignore button be nice feature. 

I think it's going to be OK.

Implement, justify dumbness button. Tad more catchy

I dont need an "ignore" button save for those asking for one...

 

 Why people cannot speak together?

Your idea will never happen.

It is not an "idea" at all it is a "will" to create relationsahip on rational thinking...Not censorship to park " thinking alike"  people in the same enclosure...

Adding a “safe haven” forum for discussion of tweaks?

 

We already have one Its called "the insider" And for $100 yr you can have such a safe space. Being a moderator is often a volunteer thing. It was expected that grown ups had the natural ability to allow others freedom of expression.They didn’t generally feel it necessary to argue with someone who they disagreed . This was especially true of someone’s preference of a sound, or what color they liked best or what food they preferred the taste of. People used to understand that NO ONE knows it all & that included themselves. People in the past had the ability to live & let live...to agree to disagree precisely because they knew that no person has all knowledge. They were gracious, allowing someone to express themselves, even if they disagreed. They understood that science had many answers to the problems we face but science does not have all the the answers. They understood that man is a wonderfully knit together yet who’s senses are is still a mystery.

 

IOW, good manners. That’s all it takes. It worked for years.

I think we can all agree that threads about tweaks like fuses, stones, mats, power conditioners etc. stir up all kinds of controversy, conflict and ill will.

I wonder why.

Cheers

I'd rather have a beating than complain about needing a 'safe haven'.

I am ferociously against censorship...(save extreme exceptional case)

 

Denying people the right to speak is censorship. Not having an interest in listening to a lame brain from down under's opinion is not. 


When I share something I have experienced with others, I have no interest in hearing from somebody trying to convince me that I didn't.

I think we can all agree that threads about tweaks like fuses, stones, mats, power conditioners etc. stir up all kinds of controversy, conflict and ill will.

 

I don't believe that for one second!   Ideas should only stir up someone to investigate further and choose the best idea. If you can't tell me why you disagree you have done no one any good. That is counter to making a better community?

I just come up from listen to Maggie's in gym and heavy bench press work. Wife in bedroom listen to music watching needles bounce on MA12000. Only one need safe haven me. Try not form massive government and make me pay higher fee while I'm get busy that just not right.

I have no problem with honest debate and I abhor censorship. Where I draw the line is when a poster slams a product without ever trying it, and in effect, becomes an arsonist in an attempt to burn a small business down. I realize that it may be unintended, but knocking a product without direct knowledge/experience of said product is harmful to the manufacturer.

Over the years, this has happened to several products that I’ve introduced, or reviewed here on Audiogon.

We all know about SR fuses, but how many remember all of the flack I took about PPT products initially until others took the plunge and tried them.?

And then the latest was the recent poster who claimed that he got the same results from two small ficus trees behind his speakers that I am getting from four Shakti Holograms, claiming that they were over-priced. He’s never tried the product and has never heard them in someone else’s system. He has NO clue whatsoever.

Ben Piazza, the developer of the Shakti Holograms, like Tim Mrock of PPT (RIP), and Ted Denney of SR, are small businessmen operating on small margins. . Unwittingly or not, why do these negative posters continue in their attempt to destroy these businesses without a second thought?


Those who have not tried the products in question in their own systems have no credibility in their remarks. Nuff said.

Frank

Another approach is that e.g. every post in a certain forum/subforum must have the word:

HEARD or NOT HEARD

at the top of every reply to indicate whether the person was speaking from experience or not. This way people could easily ignore the replies of people who have not heard whatever was being discussed..  Replies without that could be deleted but perhaps not necessary since interested people could just scan for replies with HEARD at the top.

An ignore feature would be helpful, I suppose.  But I don't really find the most egregious examples of this all that bad (have you ever seen what goes on on, say, a sports board?-- I don't think I've ever encountered racist, sexist or homophobic b.s. here.) The only time I do mind is when someone new asks a question and is reviled because that issue was discussed a year or two ago.  How is anyone coming to this site with a question supposed to know that?  (If it's like: is SS better than tube, a simple response  'this is unanswerable as the following specific threads show' should suffice). At least someone asked what each one of us here has at some point asked themselves.   I've asked some pretty basic and maybe what seem stupid questions here, and I've always gotten civil responses (or simply been ignored, which is fine also).  

It's here

https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=tweaks

fuses, stones, mats, power conditioners etc. friendly.

 

Post removed 

tommylion,

Your idea is censorship, plain and simple, and it would turn Audiogon into another Steve Hoffman type site. 

I fully understand your annoyance with the member who got you going with this idea to begin with, I have had issues with him myself, and he even reported me once and caused me to be given a warning when it was he who deserved one. Still, you need to remember that it's better to ignore his type, because your responses just energize him to respond back. 

While your solution sounds tempting superficially, it would just create an atmosphere of mistrust and members would have apprehension about expressing their opinions. I think that it's best just to ignore the annoying posts and there will be fewer of them.  

It won’t happen because of the first amendment. Audiogon is a buisness and has to follow the dictates of their lawyers as not to get sued.

Tablejockey, good to know!

Frank, you’re the best!

This thread will probably be shut down within a day or two also.

Good points cd318

Boo on steenkin'' cencorship

Negative comments on tweaks are usually obvious enough to show they have no basis in experience.  

But this is the internet.

 

I think we all deserve a safe place where we only hear the things we want to hear. 

While your solution sounds tempting superficially, it would just create an atmosphere of mistrust and members would have apprehension about expressing their opinions. I think that it’s best just to ignore the annoying posts and there will be fewer of them.

That has already happened. Many new members are afraid to post and some of the members who have been here a long time have stopped posting long ago because of the discourse some like to bring here. Shame.

 I totally agree ,my motto if you don't have extensive experience 

With the product ,then you speak out of pure ignorance !!

cd318,

Your comment:

"If a product is good enough to make it on its own merit, then it's good to withstand closer inspection, isn't it?"

Although this is true, the abuse comes from those who have never tried a given product yet comment on its inability to improve sound quality. That is not the "closer inspection" comments that allow a product to "make it on its own merit". Unfortunately, it seems to happen all the time. 

I joined a while ago and in fact I was a member many years ago but I tend to stay in the background because of the animosity here. I've been an audiophile since the 80s and we were ridiculed back then 4 improvements that couldn't be measured. I'm sad my beloved hobby has regressed even more in the intervening years. If you were to create a safe haven for these ideas I would be far more willing to participate in the dialogue here.

There are those who wish to discuss, and there are trolls. It's not about censorship, it's about behavior. The adults would like to discuss, the trolls want to sit in mom's basement throwing Cheetos at us. 

I'd like three buttons: like (thumb up), dislike (thumb down) as YouTube, and hide (ignore) as FaceBook. That way each has control over his/her own timeline viewing.

Hey Frank, tommylion, Tablejockey and others here that have taken the time to graciously share fuse tweeks with us, this is for you:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1021/Acme_Audio_Labs_Silver_Cryo_Fuses_Review.htm

The Acme Audio Labs - Small Silver Cryo w/CFC coating fuses for $17.90 a pop. Check em out...

And it’s my understanding when ordering fuses from Acme Audio Labs, you can ask them to ’match’ fuses.

At this time I don’t know exactly what that means but it sounds similar to testing/matching vacuum tubes when multiples are needed for seperates of gear.

Peace Brothers

"What do you think?"    

I think that if you ask a question, make a statement or recommend something, you are, by default, inviting people to respond. As long as people are polite and respectful, then they should not be subject to your rules of engagement. 

It seems your goal is to stifle anyone that doesn't just nod their head in agreement to whatever you post. 

 

TLDR....the entire thread is TLDR.

 

Funny you should start this discussion, as I just sent a message to Tammy with my own concerns.

I joined this group because I am a beginner and I want to learn more about how to create a better sounding system.  However, nearly every discussion is interrupted by someone cute remarks and criticizim.  I think they do so is because they are insecure and they also want to show off their knowledge.  If they want to show off their kowledge, why not contribute their remarks in a helpful way.  It is like passing it forward.  That to me is the spirit of what this hobby and discussion group should be.  There are some very knowledgeable people in this group so let's use that knowledge in a positive way so we can do what we are supposed to do and that is to help others learn and grow.  We should all be excited about helping others in a positive way,  

There are some great people in this group so let's make it fun.