Buying a used subwoofer is suspect at best. Look at it as the universe giving you a heads up.
Even if you have to bring the equipment to make sure it works, Not testing used products is even more suspect.
seller etiquette
I have been reading here for a decade, first recent post under my newly found login.
I have contacted a seller about a subwoofer for a fair price. I asked if local pickup was an option. I got a response that it was. I wrote him that I would drive up, from 2 hours away, in 3 days. I told him I don't want to disturb him by plugging it in, I would just pay and pick it up, as I'd trust his word that it works. I was ok paying full price.
I then yesterday afternoon got an email that I needed to pay asap or he'd sell it to someone else as he got another offer. I didn't read the email until this morning when it had already been sold.
Is this normal? Fair? How could I have avoided it? Should have offered to pay in advance? Should he had been waiting for my response and payment for a little longer?
93 responses Add your response
Normal- the seller can sell or not to anyone they choose. Normally, first come (paid) first served which is in the seller’s best interest - payment sooner/now is much better than the promise/risk of future payment. AFAIK the only thing that is binding contractually is all 3: offer, acceptance, and consideration (something of value like money) is exchanged. Without a contractual relationship, nothing is binding. To get a contractual commitment from the seller, the buyer should have tried to at least make a down payment. |
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0) "You appear to have Zero feedback/activity here" that's what I literally said in my first sentence. You looking me up was a waste of your time. 1) I never said it was here 2) it was on a platform where I have 100% positive feedback for 100s of transactions. 3) I do have feedback on audiogon, under another user name I used for a decade, for which I can’t seem to login as |
@gkelly why is buying a used subwoofer a suspect? |
If I have a buyer who has been clear and straightforward about a transaction to be completed in a few days, with no price haggling, I go first come first served and let the second or third offerer know they have to wait to see if the sale was completed. I just sold a piece of equipment in this situation. Sure, I could get burned. But I think my buyer and backup buyers understood and respected the process. I like to think of this place (at least USAM) is more than a flea market - more of an affinity community. So a little trust seems right. |
Clear communication is critical. Examples of communication that could have occurred: You:
Seller:
Unless the communication is rock solid, either party may have their own version of the meaning of what was said. At the end of the day, money talks. The safest solution would have been to pay the seller as soon as you finalized the offer. Contract law 101: offer, acceptance, and consideration or, you do not have a consummated contract. I don’t mind tire-kickers and answering questions when I sell stuff but I am always clear that the first acceptable offer from a qualified buyer takes it. Not a great outcome for you, and it sounds like maybe more of a foul on the seller who could have called you to verify your commitment before selling to someone else, but, hopefully a learning experience. |
@mitch2 when I commit to driving 4 hours for an item, and making time for it in my schedule, I think it’s normal to expect that I am turned down for a reason. A DECENT REASON. Selling it to someone else for the same price is not fair, when my inquiry started 4 days earlier, I committed to buy it 3 days earlier. Everything in remote communications and deals in based on trust and fairness. That’s why there is a rating system of buyers and sellers. You are siting contract law - which has zero applicability here. Nobody writes contracts in person to person few 100 bucks audio sales. My question was: is this fair? It is a question of people treating each other FAIRLY which I know is out of style these days, it’s dog eating dog.
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It’s important to understand that you cannot leave feedback for someone until money has changed hands. This is true on this site and USAM. So a sale is not a sale until an item is paid for. Had you paid for the item the seller would have been compelled to consumate the sale or receive damaging negative feedback. And I understand that this does not speak to etiquette, but common sense is not so common these days. |
Maybe someone said this already but if you wanted it and didn’t need to hear it why didn’t you just pay for it? Then he’s just holding your item, he knows it’s sold. If you’re driving up and you see it, maybe you say it has a scratch or something and end up not buying it. Then he’s turned down a sale he had in hand as opposed to one in the ‘bush’. |
well I think what may not have been clear in your original post is whether the seller actually made an agreement with you that you would pick up the equipment at a certain time and place and exchange the money then. You then later said that you agreed with the seller on a time in place. If the seller agreed with you that you would pick up the equipment at his place at a certain time and receive payment then noI don’t think it’s normal. You may or may not have had a legally binding contract, but if someone makes a deal and then fails to follow through, I don’t blame you for being upset and this is not a seller with whom I would want to do business. On the other hand, if you just said hey, I’ll be there in three days and he made no commitment about those arrangements I think he had no obligation to wait. I think it gets down to your word is your bond. Or it should be |
I made it clear that: I promised to pay full price We agreed on a time and place (4 hours drive for me) I agreed to buy it without plugging it in The seller agreed to all this. Never said: "if I have another offer", "you need to pay NOW to make sure I don't entertain other offers", etc. At that point why was I turned down when someone else made an offer? Why wasn't I asked: can you pay, I am waiting for your response.
For the record: I conduct myself with the priority of treating others the way I hope to be treated. I would NOT screw a buyer I agreed to meet with in such a manner as described above. |
What it means is that once you have paid, the seller is compelled to consumate the sale. So if you want something, pay for it. That is how the current systems are designed. Is that more clear? Had you paid, in all likelihood you would be listening to your subwoofer rather than questioning the moral compass of your seller. This in no way is meant to justify any behaviors; it is meant to explain, how as a buyer, you have the ability to shape the outcome of the sale. |
@viridian that’s not how my brain and moral compass works but thank you for the explanation. I think it is fair to assume that when a local pickup is arranged, the point is to bring cash, look at the goods and then go on our merry ways. I could be mean to a lot of people without any consequence, I can put dog poop bags in my neighbors’ mail box but I will not do that because I am a decent human being. I would rather bake a cake and put that in their mailbox. Telling the user what guarantees a sale (e.g. I might change my mind at any minute, if you don’t pay now is a swell approach) Lastly I still don't know what the feedback has to do with it. |
since you were not going to even test the unit at the sellers locale, why not just pay in advance? We once saw a piece of furniture we wanted. My wife likes to ponder, so she told the store owner that we would be back in a few days to buy that floor sample. We returned to find that was sold the previous day. Neither of us blamed the store. A bird in hand, etc. I don’t see any difference here and at least you were notified before making the drive |
I'd second what Mitch2 says. And event though a fair proportion of participants will treat our specialized markets as communities, there will still be traders that will prioritize any sale over respectful arrangements. At the other other extreme is Facebook Marketplace - a total Wild-West of a trading place. To lock in a deal - you have to show up with the money, on-time; offer to pay a reasonable deposit with Venmo ahead of pick-up; or get a firm commitment from the seller that they will hold, like "Will you hold for 3 days until I can get there in person?". This latter approach can be a bit hit or miss - I have lost out a couple of times because of it. So, the two things you could do differently next time are 1) pay a deposit with PayPal/Venmo, 2) get a commitment from the seller that they will hold for 3 days, even if another offer comes in. Best of luck in the future .... |
You said in your OP that he reached out to inform you he had another buyer and could you pay ASAP? And you didn't read the email until the next morning. That's kind of on you, don't you think. I'm sure you are a trustworthy guy and would have certainly followed through. But in my many years of buying and selling, that is not always the case. |
@ozzy62 +1 The seller sends OP email, the OP does not respond, the OP is surprised and offended!? Really? |
I guess common courtesy in the audio business is expected to be less, much less than in other commodities. I've purchased a lot of used audio equipment in the past 40 years, but typically from established brick and mortar or friends. But I do buy&sell firearms, vintage tools, art, books. When contacted by a potential customer that says they will buy my product in X amount of time, I give them that amount of time and a little more for unseen reasons. I typically don't have any problems, nor have I had problems being the buyer, and giving my word to the seller that I will be there when I say, then they sell out from under me. Guess it's just an honor thing. |
If you want traditional customer service - buy from a retailer or direct from the manufacturer. You want to save some bucks buying private, here is the only rule which matters: the seller doesn’t owe you anything until money changes hands. This one was probably mishandled on both sides. Frankly these future payment promises are annoying, and as seller I would not agree to it if I thought the item was desirable enough to get a faster sale. And if I were they buyer, I’d offer to pay up front if it really had to be a pickup in 3 days. Don’t like it, don’t trust the seller enough? Pick a seller you do trust (feedback research), or go through retail channels. I know some guys don’t like to use shipping carriers but I generally prefer it - works well into the flow of a private transaction. Mishaps with UPS or FedEx are exceedingly rare with proper packing (factory packing). To be fair, a large subwoofer sucks to ship, especially if you’re going between east and west coasts ugh. |
as others have suggested, there's a different set of unwritten rules for established members, as opposed to new ones--i.e. if my prospective buyer had a long trail of positive feedback i would absolutely feel compelled to honor our deal, whereas if the buyer was an unknown, i'd probably have handle it like the op's seller. no aspersions on the op, who i'm sure is an honorable gentleman, but many of us have experienced phantom offerors who simply disappear. |
You have received good feedback from some experienced members, which I believe was your objective.
These may not be the answers you were looking for but many of us have been successfully doing this for many years. Along the way, we have all learned lessons the hard way. Good luck on your future endeavors. |
Not a fact. I did respond, in less than 13 hours. By which time, it was too late. Fact: we agreed on something. Seller changes his mind. If I were the seller, I would have waited a day at least to give the buyer a chance. @mitch2 I understand. The difference in this situation: I have a long established presence on that site, 100% positive feedback. I exchanged over 20 messages about the deal and discussed the details of the pickup. I guess I have been spoiled by good hearted and generous audiophiles (not represented in many of the comments here - reality check - check) |
@dekay I don't know what and why you are commenting |
If I was selling something and I had a good warm n fuzzy feeling about the buyer, I would agree to hold it. And if I agree, I will NOT sell it, even for more money. I honor a gentleman's agreement. However, if this isn't specified, and I don't know the buyer well enough to agree to that, then it's a matter of who shows me the money first. I will always offer the initial prospective buyer the first right of refusal. But if waiting 24 hours for a response means I lose a sale, in that scenario I'll move on. |
Sure it is. Why would you think a seller would hold his sub for you without receiving either a sizable deposit or payment in full from you? You should treat in person pick ups the same as an online transaction- pay for it and then go get it. The reason why people try to NOT pay for it in advance is pretty simple. They really want the option of not committing until they see / hear it in person. As a seller whenever I do in person at my house I have the buyer either send me a large non refundable deposit or pay in full. Every "real" buyer has had no issue with either. |
I admire your attempt at an honorable resolution, but if I know them or not, I try to show all those with the respect. I too am a guarded person and understand concerns, but these are purchases, not you or your family's safety we're talking about. I believe the reason society is at the point it's at, is because of "Screw them, before they screw you" attitude. I'm not saying that is you, but, most of the posts I'm read here are just that. |
Road:
DeKay |
At this point I keep repeating myself and it feels like kindergarten with "Uh huh"s and reading/cognitive issues I would think the seller would hold it for me because we agreed on a time and place and there were no ifs and buts. Full asking price. Just a pickup. No listening. If there were ifs and buts, it should have come up in 20+ messages. It's how humans communicate. On the planet where I live. But I understand: he did nothing illegal. My question was: how could I have avoided it. |
