seller etiquette

@roadwhorerecords I sooo appreciate your kindness. It makes me feel so not alone. 

“There is no way that I would pay the full price and then pick it up at a later date.  That's just asking for trouble.” 

@rick_n - That is exactly how sales work on this site, USAM, eBay, and a bunch of other sites.  You pay first, and then trust that the seller will ship your purchase to you.

@dekay 

I understand you're not wanting to answer the question, believe me, if I was like you, I would avoid it too. 

I admittedly have never bought used audio equipment from a private seller, but I have bought and sold used cars privately a few times. My take on this is that once a price is agreed upon as well as a date and time to consummate the sale, the seller should make it clear whether he wants either full or partial payment in advance to guarantee the transaction. It’s not up to the buyer to make an offer to do so since the seller controls the terms of sale. A potential buyer can only meet the seller’s requirements if he knows what they are. I understand that in this case the seller apparently tried to let the buyer know that he had another offer, but under the circumstances of the prior agreement I think he should have given the original buyer more time to respond.

As far as there being "no honor in capitalism", that's a pretty jaded view. And if it's true, then why is a company's good will worth something when it's sold? A business that mistreats its customers will usually not be in business for long.

@speedthrills 

"Why would you think a seller would hold his sub for you without receiving either a sizable deposit or payment in full from you?"

Maybe because the seller, who controls the terms of the sale since he owns the property being sold, didn't ask for a sizable deposit or payment in full? What if the buyer was on his way to pick up the sub as agreed upon and the buyer got another offer while he was in transit? Would it have been perfectly okay to accept the new offer because after all, money talks? Once again, I'm not aware of any form of commerce where it's up to the buyer to establish the terms of a purchase. I'm finding it hard to believe that so many here are siding with the seller. 

When money rules over the "word given" it is not civilization but jungle or a peculiar zombies hive...

The creator of our social fabric design , the Calvinist  B. Mandeville, not Adam Smith nor Marx, wiser than them all, knowing the unconscious centuries before Freud,  Mandeville, if we listen to Hayek who called him "our master to us all" , Mandevile said it in this way: " the private vices create the public virtue"...

I am not very fond of this "virtue"...

Ignorants applauded and called this "economy"  and "civilisation"...

I understand the OP reaction...When i gave my word i mean it...

Road:

What didn't you understand after the definitions of uh huh I posted?

DeKay

@mitch2 

You pay first, and then trust that the seller will ship your purchase to you

Interesting angle. So I would send nearly a $1000 to a stranger WITH ZERO guarantees because I must TRUST the seller. 

But the seller has all the reasons in the world to NOT trust me that I will come at the agreed time and date with cash in hand. Seems like a very biased, one-sided view.

This is not a hard question.

He agreed to your terms.

He broke his agreement.

He is in the wrong.

Not sure what makes it uncertain to you, because it's clear as day to me.

@parkergetdean - absolutely yes, it happens all the time on Audiogon and USAM.  You should by all means do whatever due diligence makes you comfortable like checking feedback, assessing your communications with the seller, speaking on the phone is helpful (can’t do this under A’gon rules), looking at the pictures in the advertisement, and whatever else you need and, then when you are comfortable, send your payment.  Over the years, I have paid for, and been paid for, hundreds of audio items before the items were shipped.  That is mostly how it works.

@hilde45 , +1.

But I understand: he did nothing illegal. My question was: how could I have avoided it. 
 

I can empathize with the OP since I’ve been in a similar position, but to answer your question OP, I would bet that if you had responded by email within that 13 hours, the sub would still be available to you. Not your fault, but this is what happens to sellers who have experienced quite a bit of tire kicking or lack of follow through from potential buyers in the past. I presume that email from the seller was indirectly looking for additional assurances in your level of commitment.

Interesting angle. So I would send nearly a $1000 to a stranger WITH ZERO guarantees because I must TRUST the seller [in response to: You pay first, and then trust that the seller will ship your purchase to you]

Unsure how else it would work with these transactions on Audiogon and USAM. Maybe I’m misinterpreting, but I wouldn’t expect a seller to send me anything until I had paid in full. If meeting in-person, and as a seller, I would request at least a deposit. But that’s me and my experience of being stood up from at least three different potential buyers throughout the years.

Unsure how else it would work with these transactions on Audiogon

My point was not that it should not work this way. I understand that the seller wants to get paid paypal ff, zero assurances and THEN he will ship it.

My point was that the trust should go BOTH WAYS.

Overall, I feel my faith in humanity is restored. A person's word should mean something.

a subwoofer is the most violently used piece of equipment. no wonder dude dumped it as fast as he could. Unless someone is practically giving a subwoofer away, buying new is the best way to go. Once again just look at it as the universe was looking out for you. 

As a sellor i can count  quite a few times that i have agreed on a sale and and a time

where i tell the person they have to put down a deposit, amazing the number of people

who won't follow thru on such a simple agreement then I tell them sure I will hold the item but if someone else come along and makes me a offer I will give them 12 hours to make a deposit if they really want the item. or its gone.

In today's world cash in hand is king I have lost quite a few sales due to waitnig on some of these people, but that dosen't happen anymore if serious put down a deposit.

In this day most of us have cell phones with our e-mail  on them so there is no excuse

not to reply to a sellor if you really want the item. I live near the Chicagoland Area

and treat my sales like a brick and mortor store deposit or take the risk that you will lose

the item you are after.

What I see wrong here is relying on only email.

I would have spoke to the seller, then work out an agreed deal.

Never purchased without  actually speaking to a seller. If I get a bad "vibe"- no deal.

@tablejockey  you are correct always speak to the buyer or sellor and get their cell phone number sorry  I was distracted and  ment to add this to my statement.

Thank You for reminding me of my error

there is no excuse not to reply to a sellor if you really want the item

I did respond.

@tablejockey very true.

@hilde45 +1-absolutely right. For the sake of discussion, accepting the facts stated by the OP, the seller made a deal. He could have said, "no, first one here with money wins." Nothing wrong with that, but he didn't. Its really as simple as whether the seller honors his word-what we learned in kindergarten. Its too trivial to even consider anything "legal" but as to the question of whether seller is wrong-that seems obvious. Its really no different than if the OP arrived with the cash and seller said the price went up a hundred bucks. You either keep your word, or not. These days, its often "not."

I can't speak for the Gon, as l have no experience of it as route to making a purchase.

I have formed an understanding through other forum usage, that there are certain members who are active members because they like the idea of exposure, as they do intend on finding a customer at some point.

On the Gon, I see another influence surface within a thread, where members are participant as there is intent on selling and steering threads towards the idea of making a purchase seem to be the solution to a query.

I would bet with both types of individual, when it comes to the idea of a sale being made, there is a hardness about what a sale should look like. A simple inquiry can become a commitment in the mind of somebody wanting to shift something fast.

In this case it seems delay is classed as risk, and anything that suggested the Vendor may end up with their item without a interested customer was not to be supported.

Kick the sand of ones shoes and move on to where one feels the better welcome, I'm sure when paying a different natured Vendor for an equivalent item, there will be a satisfaction found.  

OP

get over it.  You hadn’t put any money down.  Sellers live in a world where they frequently get disappointed by buyers who don’t follow up on promises to purchase.  The seller actually reached out to you to give you a chance.

  You stated that you lost faith in humanity over this .  Really?  With all the horrible things happening in the world today you lost faith over the purchase  gone awry of a used piece of audio equipment ?  You must lead a very charmed life

 You stated that you lost faith in humanity over this .

Nope. I have never said such a thing. 

@kerrybh 

Its too trivial to even consider anything "legal" but as to the question of whether seller is wrong-that seems obvious.

Totally agree. And not only is legality -- or arcane rules of the selling site -- trivial, it's also not determinative. A bad review by seller or buyer has a lot of clout, and simply writing up that behavior and negging the seller should have a restraining influence. It's just one potential buyer, of course, and maybe potential buyers can't post (not sure) but these kinds of crappy actions catch up to sellers very quickly.

It's not 20 years ago. Today, everyone has a phone with them for every move they make. If you don't respond in a timely manner to a text or an email these days, it's because you are lazy or uninterested. Of course there are some exceptions, but those are outliers. I've had messages to sellers go unanswered for days. That's unacceptable if your goal is to actually move something.

Maybe the seller should have just told the second buyer to pound sand. But he didn't and did actually try to give the OP a chance at the item. 

If you can't get there the same day, offer to send a deposit via Paypal, Venmo, or whatever. 
End of issue. 

I've had so many people respond to ads saying 'I'll buy it', then you never hear from them again.

I had an experience with a bloke in Canada, from a well known Canadian retailer with a popular YOUTUBE channel. We went back and forth, agreed a price, he wouldn't use PayPal, so I sent him my bank details, then never heard from him again. Wanker.

Another issue is that email from USaudiomart is problematic and often ends up in a spam folder - not just me, there's various threads about the issue on their forum.

So if you're involved in a transaction as buyer or seller, be sure to check your spam folder.
Anyway, I don't think the seller guy did much wrong. He gave the buyer the opportunity to pay, he didn't respond, the seller sold it to someone who paid. 

Turn on your doom scroll radar to a level that detects items that has a high sale value. If the buzzer had gone off, you would’ve been much more active In acquiring the item. Pretty much know when you can sit on an item and watch the price go down and at other times the minute an item pops you’re making a phone call making your way down there as fast as you can. Still amazed that a used subwoofer got that much action in the classified but oh well. 

@gkelly it's been listed for 75 days, 5 views a day. So I did not think it was a hot item. I wasn't not active or very active, I was reasonably confident I was going to buy it. I had the money, and a place and time in 3 days. 

As to why I didn't read the email between 5PM and 6AM the next day: it was Saturday PM. I am fine with not reading email on a Saturday evening. I didn't think the seller would back out and sell to someone else. But it happened. 

The moral of the story: I should not assume anything. The end.

From what I’ve read, I agree with the OP. Particularly learning about the timing of all this, Saturday evening through 6 AM Sunday morning? All that said, it would have been Better for the buyer and seller to have exchanged phone numbers. Of course, that cannot happen on this website. Which is a whole other disappointment!

Is this normal? Fair? How could I have avoided it?

@parkergetdean 

I really understand your disappointment and feel some sympathy for you, but I look at both sides for “fairness”.

In the Seller’s interest;

• A sale asap is best
• Cash now is better than cash later
• Cash now is MUCH BETTER than the promise of future payment, which may not happen if the buyer back out

As the buyer, you tried to encumber the seller to hold the item for you “for free” expecting the seller to ignore sooner “for sure” offers for your possible “future payment”.  What guarantee does the seller have that the future buyer won’t back out?  NONE.  If that happens, then the seller is screwed not accepting the first come offers.  
Bottom line, you made an arrangement for your benefit at the seller’s expense, crying foul that “they didn’t keep their word” to your one sided bias arrangement.

I’ll share a story with me as the seller.

Last year I had a pair of Verity Audio Parsifal Ovations for sale. They had generated a fair amount of interest. A guy local to me made me an offer and I accepted. He was to come the following weekend to pick them up. In the meantime I had another offer to ship them, I declined that second offer because I gave the first guy my word, and of course I would rather not have to ship.

He asked me on the phone if I could hook them up so I did. I assumed he wanted to make sure all the drivers worked and there were no issues. So I just haphazardly placed them directly next to another pair of speakers, far from ideal but I figured it would suffice.

So when he arrives he takes my ipad and selects several songs from Qobuz and listens intently. Then he stands up and says "boy I’m glad I got to hear these. They are very closed in and constricted". Then he says thank you and leaves. This happened all in less than ten minutes.

I had no idea he wanted to "audition" the speakers before purchase. He never mentioned that the sale was contingent on what he heard. Had I known that I would have taken greater care to set them up. And anyone who has ever heard the Parsifal Ovations knows that is NOT how they sound. And they didn’t sound that way in my treated room.

So of course I reach out the the second buyer and he has moved on. So that’s just a little story about what buyers will do sometimes.

@ozzy62 ,

Yes, the buyer should have been upfront that the sale was contingent on a sound demo. All this buying and selling boils down to clear, concise communication between parties where everyone is on the same page. When I’m buying or selling on a different site, I always provide my phone number so we can speak or at the very least text each other. Communication is detailed in what I expect and what is expected of me. And of course, always check feedback.

@kennyc 

you tried to encumber the seller to hold the item for you “for free”

I would have long abandoned this thread if this nonsense stopped coming up. Please. I did not pressure the seller to do anything. I committed to 4 hours of driving, an extra $80 on my part to picking up the item. The seller AGREED to this. If he had said: it's not yours until you are here because I am entertaining other offers, I would have asked "how about a deposit?" But he did not. He agreed to the terms, in fact he suggested the terms and I accepted all of them.

What guarantee does the seller have that the future buyer won’t back out?

My word. There is nothing more than that, no deposit, written contract means more than MY WORD.

@ozzy62 

If I were your in person buyer, I would have said: "I am interested, I have the money, can I come by, listen to them, and if my ears like them, I would buy them."

In my story, I told the seller: "do NOT hook it up, I am ready to take them as is, and hand you cash".

@parkergetdean 

Understood. And I didn't relate that story insinuate in aligns with your story. I just wanted to share my experience of what could happen when people aren't on the same page.

@ozzy62 got it. It sure must have been annoying. I once had a fast classic car, when I tried to sell it, I stopped counting how many people test drove it just for fun

@parkergetdean 

Admittedly, I did not read every single comment here, so some of this may have been covered already.

You asked "How could I avoid this in the future?" (Paraphrasing)

Here's what I would have done:

1) Offered to put down a small deposit (Venmo or PayPal) to guarantee holding until agree upon pickup date / time. Don't wait for the seller to ask for one - offer it yourself. This shows the seller that you are now vested in completing the transaction;

2) Did the seller know it was a 4 hour drive for you? Significant information like that should be communicated. If nothing else, it gives the seller understanding that with such a long distance to travel, he needs to be a little more flexible if (for example) you are an hour late getting to him due to traffic, etc.;

3) Unless the whole "I will just pick it up, won't even test it out" angle was crucial to getting the sellers agreement in the first place... which honestly would raise red flags in my mind IF IT WAS... why give up a generally recognized 'right' without getting anything in return? As a person who has both bought and sold in the past, I fully expect that anyone purchasing from me is going to want to test the equipment. If I was buying and a seller said "no testing, just pick it up and go..." that's a MAJOR downward push on pricing (at least what I would be willing to pay)... again, don't give up anything that is considered a standard allowance unless you are getting some consideration in return for giving it up...

@carlso63 

1) agreed.

2)

Did the seller know it was a 4 hour drive for you

yes

on 3) this wasn’t my way to lower the price, it was a token of trust. I already agreed to the full price. I have heard this sub before. It was on photos and looked to be in great shape. What else would I want? A sub even a great one is hugely dependent on setup, I don’t care how it sounds in someone’s garage. 

@parkergetdean 

On 3) You might not care how it sounds in someone's garage... but you would care if it was buzzing or sounded muddy due to a blown voice coil, etc., or no sound at all... 

Just food for thought. Don't give up any allowances / privileges / rights unless you get something in return.

Dude. 

Buyer beware. 

Lick your wounds. Move on 

assuming your communication was clear as presented, seller is in the wrong. you had a deal and the dishonest seller broke it. selling your subwoofer from under you is dirty dealin, my friend.

If you and he agreed, then you both gave your word and the deal is done, but not yet paid for. Otherwise, your word ain't worth spit. 

@roadwhorerecords I just saw your message. So sorry I can't respond the system does not let me. I agree with you a 100%