JohnnyR, you never fail to get a plug in for your product that you sell, without mentioning that you are a dealer for Vandersteen. But that is besides the point, as your whole post is ass backwards. Successful distribution will cost the customer less? Wrong, everyone knows customers are going to pay a big mark up . In other words the lucky customer will pay 8 grand or more for the Cirrus though a dealer.
Next you plug the four lofty drivers in the 2ce Sigs, eluding that after a company such as Vapor has spent all their money on veneer, paint etc., that you are going to get lesser drivers. Wrong again. Vapor puts a lot of labor into the cabinets, and they chose some, if not the best drivers in the world,and a world class crossover that can be customized to each client. Vapor's customers are purposely buying direct from the company to save thousands so they can cut out the dealer, advertising, distribution , and sales force. Don't swear it Johnny , Vapor is not aiming it's speakers at your 2ce's , but rather YG Acoustic and Magico. |
luvs2listen/Vapor, why don't you just take care of this situation? Imagine if you had rectified this problem over a month ago and then you had spent that time to fullfill your stated order backlog.
I also find your cheerleading/shilling in another thread a put-off as you are talking about all of these new models you are working on and yet, you can't seem to solve a simple customer service issue nor can you seem to compress the timeframe for deliveries to those who already have deposits placed. At one point, I simply thought that you guys were in the middle of a steep learning curve, now I believe your issues are likely more serious and potentially detrimental. |
(((Stringreen makes the case for supporting well known larger companies that charge you for their advertising, distribution, sales force, etc. That's fine. But if you don't mind working with a new and growing company here in America that eschews all that extra overhead in order to offer you a superior product for a lower price, well, that's the customer we're looking for.))
What Stringgreen is pointing out is for the customer to have some facts.
With successful dealer distribution it will cost the customer less.
The experienced manufacturer can then count on consistency with sales allowing purchases of loftier parts in larger quantity equals less costly runs equals Superior product.
Example a garage tech would have to charge 125K
to build a Rav 4 where Toyota can do for 24K
Lets look at the Parts, technology in a Vandersteen 2CE Sig 2 with 4 lofty drivers and compare to a well painted,Veneered 2 way box
with all the money in the veneer,paint job whats left over to spend for drivers etc
Which speaker do you thinks gonna be playing music besides jingle bells at the end of the day?
Cheers JohnnyR |
Stringreen makes the case for sticking with the larger companies that charge you for their advertising, distribution, sales force, etc. That's fine. But if you don't mind working with a new and growing company here in America that eschews all that extra overhead in order to offer you a superior product for a lower price, well, that's the customer we're looking for. I was this customer so how do you figure my 6k pair of Cirrus speakers are superior? You shipped them with a 1 1/2" gouge down one side that you were well aware of and purposely left this side of the speaker out of the pictures you sent before payment and shipping. Is this the American way to you? It's not the first time Vapor Audio has done this either. It actually saddens me to see you using the word America in your marketing. Would anyone want to know about a known flaw before purchasing? When I place an ad for them here am I required to disclose this flaw? Vapor Audio now wants me to trust them AGAIN! LOL Dat1 started this thread and owned these same speakers in which he sold shortly after. |
Sprks, JP1208 would have received ALL his money back, minus the shipping charges he would have incurred in returning them to us for inspection. That was offered and refused.
Mtruong34, giving a full refund on items that we hadn't inspected first would be the height of foolishness. If anyone else were to buy that set of speakers, they'd be remiss if they didn't do the same.
Finally, Sprks, sometimes, the customer just can't be pleased, no matter what you do. The fact remains that he was offered a full refund, but refused the terms. His part in the entire process would have been limited to packing them up and shipping them back.
Stringreen makes the case for sticking with the larger companies that charge you for their advertising, distribution, sales force, etc. That's fine. But if you don't mind working with a new and growing company here in America that eschews all that extra overhead in order to offer you a superior product for a lower price, well, that's the customer we're looking for. |
JP1208, did Vapor Audio offer you any other option for a full refund for the damaged speakers or just the third party contingency offer? After they offered a full refund in the last thread I was shocked to see that they were trying to run this refund through another buyer. How does the company not have funds to reverse this transaction since they make it sound like sales are soaring and mentioned numerous times that they are doing quite well?
I think Stringreen makes a very valid point here. Sending money to a compnay on the brink sounds like a disaster waiting to happen or they have the money and are just playing games with the customer. |
I only dealt directly with Harbteh company when I was buying SHL5.There was no dealer in my country.Everything was fine.No troubles so far. |
My word!! That's why we have to take into account the stregnth and reputation of those components on which we spend our hard earned money. There are quite a few manufacturers that make excellent sounding equipment....why anyone sends money to companies that are on the fringe is unbelievable....even if their products may seem superior to those made by solid brands like Ayre, Audio Research, Vandersteen, VPI, and the many more that fall into this top category. |
Talk about good customer service, Salk is in the process of bringing out a way for customers to monitor online the progression of their speaker build through the various stages.
This is a win/win, the customers are more informed and it takes away many of the emails they have to answer. |
Odyssey Audio goes out of their way for complete customer satisfaction. Esoteric is also wonderful and Jack at SpearItSound went above and beyond for me twice. Also, Audible Illusions has come a very long way in providing great customer service Audiofeil has also been excellent and Joe Abrahms who sells MIT here has been equally great.
The worst has been Sony. Their service is God aweful. It's a sad day when you ship them their "flagship" $5000.00 SACD player in perfect condition with zero scratches/blemishes and it arrives back to you all scratched and nicked, probably because the low paid tech couldn't be bothered to put the unit on something soft while he/she was working on it. The total indifference Sony showed me when I filed a complaint was hard to believe. |
Paul, you were offered FULL refund and we made it clear that we have a buyer ready now. I always have a list of people wanting a pair immediately. Vapor1, you only had a possible buyer from Canada when you made your so called "FULL REFUND" offer and were waiting for more details. You said I can enjoy my speakers while I waited. Of course you are going to say the person is NOW ready in this thread but I never agreed to your offer in the first place and only questioned it. This is why I said I thought your company would be paying me through a paypal account the same way I had to pay you. The reply back to me was, Vapor Audio does not have those kinds of funds laying around. We just have two different meanings of what FULL REFUND meant I guess and no I am not doing this on a third party contingency upon your inspection approval. Too risky for me. You sent speakers that had flaws and did not disclose this to me before I made my final payment plus all the UPS issues we went through make it very difficult to trust you with an escrow service. Again you have to be the one holding all of the cards and take zero risk. |
Iv'e had A+ service from 80-90% of the manufactures of the gear and cables I own which is amazing these days. Oppo,Anthem,Parasound, Mitsubishi,AudioQuest and Morrow Audio cables. A+ support! Kudos to them all! |
To be fair, I'm equally tired of the whining, crying, and complaining. Way to go Bill, equal opportunity derision! ;) Hope you've been well! J |
I have no dog in this fight but personally I'm weary of the advertising, self promotion, and marketing.
To be fair, I'm equally tired of the whining, crying, and complaining.
Put a sock in it. |
In general, I believe excellent customer service to be on the rise. Limiting the discussion strictly to audio, I find that today's successful audio retailers have the common trait of terrific customer service. Those of us old enough to remember, the audio shops of yesteryear were hit and miss, sometimes depending on whether the proprietor liked the customer. Today, successful audio retailers have formalized it to an art. Manufacturers dealing direct with the customer must understand in advance that cutting out a dealer network requires the adoption and formalization of customer service protocol and problem resolution standardization. Those who execute that well will thrive, those that do not......
Vapor, what is the definition of a full refund? I would define it as a reversal of the transaction, not the introduction of a third party, a fourth if you count an escrow company. It is your responsibility to refund the money. Does the third party you are trying to "broker" the speakers to understand that they are basically used speakers? Again, the distrust imbedded in this transaction appears to run deep.
Vapor and Luvs2listen have allowed this transaction to become a comedy of errors. If I had a pair of your speakers on order, with my deposit in your possession, I might be worried with your ability to deliver a completed pair of speakers in a satisfactory manner. Repeated missed delivery schedules combined with an unwillingness/inability to provide the full refund proposed by you in the earlier thread are worrisome signs. I hope thats not the case but if it walks like a duck....... |
IMO, going on the forums and saying you are offering a FULL refund when you really mean you will find a buyer for the speakers but you have a buyer now is a misrepresentation. The difference? One is absolute and the other is contingent. Contingent upon the final inspection, contingent upon supposed buyer not backing out at the last minute, etc. |
I had a very good experience with Bel Canto earlier this year where they made a repair to an amp i acquired second hand in a timely and cost effective maner and with good clear ommunications. I was very satisfied. |
This is my last post on this topic.
Paul, you were offered FULL refund and we made it clear that we have a buyer ready now. I always have a list of people wanting a pair immediately.
We try to work with you in private, you misrepresent things in public. With all the options we've given you, any reasonable person would realize we're trying and would communicate until details are agreed upon. Since you're not doing that after the offers we've made, I have to assume you're happy with the speakers. |
I had no support from this German company of Axinia Schaefer...but, to be fair, she was willing to take my money for a silver litz re-wiring and to build me a SS platter for a Micro Seiki turntable, no problem. Then she refused to deliver the items that I paid her to build for me...hence, no product...no need for customer support, super.
Watch out for that one!
Cheers! |
Ghasley, Once they had a buyer for the speakers then they would have the funds but there is no way I was going to send these speakers without payment first. Vapor wants to use an escrow company, then have me ship the speakers to them so they can inspect for damage. After this is done they would then release the funds if the speakers came in clean. I can find a buyer and take less risk like Dat1 did.
I am also sorry for not taking a little higher road in the last thread but there are limits to the amount of bull I can handle. Lesson learned again! I have name called in the forums before and should have known better what was going to happen. I swear it's the dark irish in me. LOL
As far as the amps go, Dennis from D-sonic finally got them back but had to use the forums to get it done because phone calls and emails were going nowhere. I saw him in 3 different forum sites and was on a mission.
Anyways, I will give a pop for Vapor Audio's Cirrus speaker as an amazing sounding monitor. Mine have a great mid hall sound, huge stage,with top notch decay. When the music gets real busy they stay nice and poised. The bass is uncanny for the one 7" AT woofer. The vocals and acoustical music will be tough to match in this price range. Dynamics are not over done with this set so when you crank it up it is not overbearing. Poised keeps coming to mind. I think Dat1 can vouch for some of these comments.
With that being said I would box these up and ship them back without hesitation because nothing sounds that good to make you forget about the frustrations.
I know companies can bounce back from these things and become stronger than ever. It has been done before. The speakers themselves can without a doubt hold this company together but the customer service side or bedside manner needs help. I don't want to see Vapor Vaporized but if they keep making promises they can't keep and can't be upfront with the customer then they will have a harder time keeping the doors open.
So, no I don't think customer service is dead, I just think it is still being learned! |
Amazing! With the deletion of the old thread, I was mistakenly comforted that there had been a resolution between JPL and Vapor/Luvs2listen/Aire. Apparently not.
Now its out there alleging that Vapor cant afford to provide a refund due to lack of funds, which I hope for the sake of all in the queue awaiting their speaker delivery following submission of their deposits is a misunderstanding. The bad PR is mounting (people alleging missing amps, scheduled reviews vaporizing, etc) and how unfortunate.
As I stated in the previously deleted thread, excellent customer service is paramount and the cost of NOT providing it is crippling. Again, I look forward to seeing how this all ends. |
I forgot to also mention Vandersteen. I bought my 2Cs in 1987. Every time I've called them with questions, Richard has either answered the phone or I was transferred to him quickly. Another great example of customer service. |
I'll echo the praise for Salk Sound customer service. After a few email exchanges, I ordered a pair of supercharged song towers and a custom sized supercharged CC. Jim found me a unique veneer, a spalted beeswing makore.
He estimated 30-45 days, I emailed him at the 45 day mark and was told my speakers were in the finishing process.
I received them right around the 2 month mark. Well packed, with no damage at all, no flaws I can find in the speaker build. The CC came out great, he made it to fit in a 7" high space above our mantel and narrow enough to fit on the mantel. It came out 37" wide and was done in a satin black finish.
They have been nothing but a pleasure to work with through the whole process. emails were answered promptly and he talked me into speakers at a lower budget than I initially set. Highly recommended. |
Vapor1, are you kidding? Pete Schumacher emailed me and said Vapor Audio does not have that kind of cash laying around for a refund. I expected to box these up, get you the tracking info and have you paypal me the same way I sent you my payment. You declined my offer due to not having the cash on hand. I didn't decline a refund, so as soon as you have enough cash on hand please paypal me and these will gladly be back on the next UPS truck direct to your front door. Your offer to find a buyer for the speakers was declined because it's your way or no way and I have to jump through your hoops. I trusted you when I made final payment on the 6k pair of Cirrus speakers but it seems you can't trust me now. I think my transaction record here speaks for itself. |
I’m a little surprised that no one mentioned conrad johnson. Even with their very old gear, whether I purchased it new or used, they have always been solid with me. |
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Dat1 and I had the same experience from the same company. Ty Lashbrook was awesome to deal with and have heard nothing but praise from Salk and Selah. Sorry for the late reply but some of you were engaged in the thread I was in that turned nasty and was shut down. If any of you want more details just email me. [email protected] We offer new stands to replace the damaged ones, you declined. We offer a FULL refund for the speakers and stands, you declined. I'm not sure what else we're supposed to do? |
No.
I think consumers are much more demanding now, taking advantage of the
current economic conditions. |
I know this echoes some of the responses earlier in this thread, but Bobby at Merlin provides spectacular customer service. Manley is also amazing - they've been wonderful taking care of my Manley gear, all of which I purchased second hand! Tash Goka at Reference 3A is also cordial and forthcoming on the phone. Generally speaking, I've found the smaller, high-end manufacturers to be very good on the customer service front. |
Customer sevice should be of the utmost importance to every manufacturer. Like many, I wont buy from any company if I hear from word of mouth or see in print that they are indifferent or , even worse, hostile towards customers. Manufacturers, especially in this economy where less people have this kind of disposable imncome, should be bending over backwards to make a customer happy, not shooting themselves in the foot by having a customer refuse to by again from them. Chances are, if a manufacturer is just in it for a one-time sale, he wont stay in business very long. I have an amplifier (Belles 350A)that I wanted checked out to see if it was the cause of a crackling sound coming from my speakers (it wasnt). I was up-front with Dave Belles that I bought the amp from a fellow audiogoner used, but he agreed to check it out anyways. It took about a month to get it back but he told me that they were very busy with orders, whic I understood. Since he found nothing, thats exactly what I was charged........you cant beat that. I have seen many talk about how great Jim Salk is with customer service and the fact that many buy from him two, three, or four times bears this out. Also, read my response about Jeff Catalano's excellent customer service in the Highwater Sound thread, same deal as Salk-many are repeat customers due to Jeff's above and beyond customer service (bought a TW Akustic Raven One turntable, Ortofon 12 inch arm, and Dynavector cart from him). |
Dat1 and I had the same experience from the same company. Ty Lashbrook was awesome to deal with and have heard nothing but praise from Salk and Selah. Sorry for the late reply but some of you were engaged in the thread I was in that turned nasty and was shut down. If any of you want more details just email me. [email protected] |
As far as speakers go, look no further than Ty Lashbrook at Tyler Acoustics. Outstanding is putting it lightly. The man goes above and beyond to satisfy his customers. |
As far as speakers are concerned, which is what the OP was looking for, I can recommend two from personal experience.
First is Vandersteen. Both the dealerships I have dealt with and Vandersteen itself are exemplary when it comes to customer service. Quick response, often by founder Richard Vandersteen personally, excellent knowledge level regarding their products, and very helpful regarding set up assistance. Excellent owners manuals and web site, as well.
Second is Ohm Acoustics. This direct-only seller also provides very quick replies to questions. I had cosmetic issues with some speakers I purchased from Ohm and was immediately given the choice of repair (all shipping at Ohm's expense) or a partial credit. I had voiced my unhappiness with the fit and finish of the caps on the speakers I bought, and without asking, a new, better quality set appeared at my door. Founder John Strohbeen is usually available to answer questions and make helpful recommendations. My experience has given me the impression that Ohm wants its customers to be very happy with their purchases. They do not advertise much, they never display at shows, and have no dealer network, so word of mouth is Ohm's main source of business. Ohm's 120-day home trial period for their products is among the best in the industry, AFAIK. They get it - they have to provide a top notch customer experience, and they do. |
03-20-12: Chashas1
No, but good customers are dying off... I think this is also a part of the equasion. |
The same names keep appearing, K&K, Daedalus and I agree with them. The clue for some, is size, small manufacturers are often much better and quicker in responding to individual requests.
No, to me, the problem is'nt manufacturers, but retail. There are some worthy exceptions, but so many stores are unwelcoming, even hostile and unhelpful. Unless you walk in with your credit card or chequebook, out, they are'nt interested. I suppose they have to put up with a fair number of tyre kickers, but in the current difficult times, I just can't understand this attitude |
No, but good customers are dying off... |
I would have to say one of the very best people I have ever worked with was Geoff Poor who owns Glenn Poor's Audio in IL as well as the sales director (I think or a key position) or BAT.
Had to be the best time I ever had at a Hi Fi Shop. Wonderful to talk to, worked thru everything you could want and even if its a long drive, its worth it.
Also the guys down at Oviation Ultimate in Indy. Seriously some of the most friendly guys I have worked with. I'm younger and they would show me everything in the store and work with you and weren't on a high horse and dismissed you because of age etc. Whenever I'm in Indy I have to always go there and visit.
There are some horrible places though. I think customer service on a good level is dying out. Either they don't think they need to do anything for you or they just want the sale. Happens a lot.
Even dealers will do it. Rather than talking about the gear why not turn it on and invite the person to listen? I thought that was what the hobby was about and not to just get a quick sale out the door. |
so, i think we've determined that customer service is still very much alive? |
I imagine "value for dollar" high-end brands is the bulk of the equipment found in real brick & mortar stores with listening rooms, etc. I get the sense the esoteric stuff tends to be demoed in smaller, more private settings. |
I just this week had a problem with one of my Quicksilver V4 amps. After speaking with my dealer, John Rutan at Audio Connection, he offered to come and pick it up or have me drop it by for him to take a look at it. I brought it by and he went straight to work with a phone call to Mike Sanders at Quicksilver. After about 45 minutes I was a happy camper again with the problem solved. This was right before closing time as well.To have the manufacturer answer the phone himself and the dealer do the work himself, all the while really trying to get to the bottom of the problem, with no attitude, is what I call great service! |
Just a plug here for my local dealer. Speaker Shop in Buffalo, NY will do everything in their power to resolve any issues in your favor. Been doing business with them forever.
They do in-home installs and in-home evals (the latter if they know you) They'll ship as well. They tend to stick with the more well-known larger companies in deference to our local market's incessant need for the perception of "value for the dollar" (hence, McIntosh, B&W, Paradigm, KEF, Marantz, Magneplanar, etc). Look 'em up. |
I have had excellent customer service from a variety of dealers, distributors and manufactures. Rick Milam of A-V Design (ARC, Ayre, B&W, Vandersteen, Focale, etc) and Robert Bruce of Sound FX (Proac, Magnepan, Linn, NAD, etc) in Kansas City are dealers who are superbly knowledgeable and easy to work with. Jeff Catalano of High Water Sound in NY is an excellent purveyor of tubes and vinyl and one of the most helpful and candid audio experts I have encountered who guided me into a superb TW Acustic analog rig. Walter Swanbon of Fidelis AV in New Hampshire distributes Harbeth speakers and Perraux electronics and is one of the most friendly and knowledgeable audio experts I have met. Vinnie Rossi manufactures Red Wine Audio electronics in Connecticut and distributes WLM speakers and is as down to earth as one gets. Kevin Hayes designs and manufactures VAC amplifiers in Florida that are my current reference and he personally responds to all queries quite generously with his time.
The numerous poor customer service folks out there are discouraging but there are excellent suppliers in our audio community who are easy to work with and who will do everything they can to earn your business if you take the time to seek them out.
Hope this short list helps. |
I have received outstanding customer support from Wyetech, Wyred for Sound, Stealth Cables and Etymotic earphones. If you do your homework and buy top quality components from music-loving designers and manufacturers, you will receive great customer service.
Neal |
I think you should talk with Duke at Audiokenesis.
I think he falls in line with Ralph from Atmasphere in outstanding customer support. |
Redgum from Australia is very good. Spent enough time talikng to me and answered clearly all the questions. Sent me a spare "ignition key" for my amp for free. Yes, key instead of usual power switch. Liked their English too. |
Learsfool, can you list the manufacturers from whom you've had excellent service? I think it would help the OP. |
I would look at something from Vandersteen. They sound incredible and if you are having any problems, they will work with your dealer and make sure you get the best possible results. Also, Vandersteen is very picky about who they let sell their speakers. If they can't find a dealer that meets their standards, they won't let them become a dealer. |
My experience with customer service in high end audio is almost without exception excellent. It better be, for the price. |
i have dealt with virtue audio numerous times. they are first rate: helpful, accurate and timely responses. lest i forget: incredibly friendly. |
Dat1, I know about your less than satisfactory experience with your last speaker purchase. IME, these kind of problems come from one man operations. They usually are not businessmen and have problems getting products out on time. It's funny when you visit their website or listen to their VM greeting, they always state "we" this and "we" that, when you know there's only one person running the show.
In your price range, I would stick with the tried and true speaker manufacturers with a dealer network. I've had good experience with Magnepan (3.7s comes to mind, almost considering a pair for myself), Martin Logan (hybrids are usually not my cup of tea but very good customer service), Thiel, Dynaudio, and B&W (usually not my kind of sound but recent audition of 805Diamond got me impressed). Sanders Sound hybrid electrostats is the only example of a hybrid I like. They have a smaller version under 10K you might consider. He is a small operation (but not one man) but has been around a long time and has been known to give great service. Duke of Audiokenesis makes speakers also...I think one man operation...but one of the most generous person I know of in high end. He has gone out of his way even though he knew I wasn't interested in buying one of his products. |
