Bang for the buck


Hi all, I'm looking to get some feedback on great value/sound used speakers for a 14x11.5' room in an apartment. Are there any suggestions from audiosciencereview or your own experience that mate great sound with excellent value on the used market? I recently found a pair of Salk speakers at a good price, but their frequency response is the only measurement graph I can find. Plus, I wonder if a large part of that speaker price is due to the cost of the cabinet and its elaborate finish. I'm looking to put my money towards the music more than the cabinet jewelry finishes. (I'm on a budget <$2k). Thanks for any recommendations 

128x128labguy

Salk's are awesome, and many of their models are available in a lower cost plain finish. Great price due to manufacturer direct sales. I use a pair of their monitors in room a little smaller than yours. Magnepan LRS+ and .7 also great options, as Magnepan bass supposedly travels less through apartment walls.  There are some threads here that technically explain that. I have also owned the Magnepan.

@labguy 

"Are there any suggestions from audio science review?"

Seriously? Asking that here is like walking into a vegetarian restaurant and asking if they make a good ribeye.

 

 

@tony1954 is that because ASR doesn't properly measure equipment or just because the vast amount of personal experience found here definitely outweighs any measurements found elsewhere? I don't want steak from  a salad bar, but I would like to learn why you say that. Thanks!

I've had Salk SS6M speakers and Fritz's speakers. In all, I liked the Be tweeter speakers about equal but I liked the Fritz Carbon 7 better than the other two. 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-fritz-heiler-s-carbon-7-se-mk-2-bookshelf-speakers

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-fritz-heiler-s-carrera-be-bookshelf-speakers

Someone reached out to me wanting to sell the Fritz Carbons for about $1k plus a bit. If you're interested P.M. me and I'll share his contact. He's in NY

is that because ASR doesn’t properly measure equipment

yes, no proper double blind listening tests (see the way harman conducts blind listening tests for a proper example)

https://youtu.be/lj2xbgvIGbo

BTW, I recommend the JBL 580 or 590, on sale:

https://www.harmanaudio.com/sale/STUDIO+580BK.html?dwvar_STUDIO%20580BK_color=Black-USA-Current&amp;cgid=sale

Review:

https://youtu.be/odJ7YPPt30Y

is that because ASR doesn't properly measure equipment

Good evaluation is test and listen to the product. They sometimes don't bother to listen. And when they do listen to a loudspeaker, they only listen to one...not a good way to listen to stereo loudspeakers. 

Gotcha, thanks for rhe info.

It sounds kind of like how Rtings rates Tv's. They rate them without ever taking the tvs upscaling ability into account for their image rating (not every tv image is already in 4k guys). 

@labguy 

I don't want to speak for all members, but many believe that judging audio equipment predominantly based on measurement results is a flawed process.

Measurements are critical when considering a piece of equipment, but they believe that actually listening to a component should be the principle method of assessing its attributes. 

You judge food by tasting it, so it makes sense to listen to audio equipment.

 

You didn’t mention what your front end is? Tubes, ss, receiver? Makes a huge difference on your pic. 

Solid state front end. May upgrade to a better integrated but plan to stay solid state.

At times I try to read what they have to say about a product and each time I feel like the oldest person on the site is under 20. Meaning they got the world figured out by numbers but in no way have yet to experience any of it in real life. I'm done with that scholar view of audio. It has nothing to do with our ears and the environment we use to listen to music. A lot of talk to say nothing imo.

@baylinor well said, i understand, thanks.

@yogiboy do you think those Vandersteens will outperform a Salk veracity ht2?? I've heard a vandersteen before and was impressed but I don't remember the model. i can het a desl on a salk songtower or veracity, but I'm not sure that they'll do great with all genres of music and fit my small apartment space, and I listen to just about everything.

A brand new pair of JBL 4309’s are 2k....I bought them for the heck of it in Walnut w/ Blue grills. They still sit idle in sealed boxes. Maybe I’ll get around to listening to them.... some day.

I have never owned a Salk so I can’t give you an answer on that. I have owned Vandersteens  (2c and 3A ) and I recommended that model since you have a small space and a two thousand dollar budget!

@audioguy85 I need your job! I can't imagine havng that kind of cash to drop on something and leaving it in the box.

I bet they sound great, but I suppose it's relative to what you currently are using. [Shrug]

ASR is a good source and a lot can be learned from understanding measurements but not all that is important is measured. How do you measure bass texture and detail? How do you say which kids are more natural if they are both flat because there is a big difference. I think good measurements are just the start of being able to play ball. Now they need to bring all the other stuff too.

I own the JBL 4367 and Revel 228be both of which have been measured on a Klippel and posted to ASR. Both are flat on axis and have even drop off as they widen but they could not sound more different. The JBL is so much more dynamic and detailed top to bottom. There is almost no comparison to be made and that is in the same room/system on a popper amp.

For you speaker question I would maybe try JBL 580s. They will be way under you price when on sale. JBL sells them direct at 50% off a lot of times and they have a 60 day trial period. They measure very well and perform above their price range. They lack some detail and dynamics in absolute terms.

i have not heard it personally but arendal speakers are getting good reviews and are “lower” cost they might have something in your price range

 

@labguy it’s called being in debt up to your eye balls lol...kidding aside (not really), I am too lazy to remove the Tannoys right now, I'll get around to it at some point when I have the inclination or if I'm bored.

With speakers in particular, it's best to hear them yourself, with your amplification or perhaps what you hope to get!  There are so many good speakers in your price range, and they all sound different.

Some bigger makers, like KEF, have several lines with different goals in terms of quality & looks.  You might prefer smaller stand mounts in an apartment.  The small Q series speakers are in the $600-800/pair range, with the towers more like $1500-2200.

I think the Quad S series speakers are good value on the used market.  There is a pair of S-5 on here for $2.2K. brand new in box

@james633 I had Kef r3 , buchardt s400 mkii se, and Arendal on my radar too. So many to pick from. Heard some monitor audio gold I liked but they are out of budget. It's going to be impossible to listen to all the options that interest me, and my current setup seems to exceed its price point of being so affordable. I'm pretty sure I'll need to triple my spend to noticeably know it's worth the improvement. I like the sound I have now. I just know it can be better. Having apartment neighbors necessitating lower than my desired volume level is a buzz kill too by the way.

spendor sp1 or sp1/2

tremendous value, excellent sound

couple with a rel subwoofer for full range presentation

Anthony Gallo Reference 3.5's. Don't let the small size fool you, they are giant killers, and can be had for a good price used. All stainless steel and aluminum.....gorgeous speakers!

All those speakers mentioned are fine. But truly best bang for the buck is JBL. The JBL 580 is a $1600 speaker on sale for $600. Free shipping free return 60 day trial. They are great speakes and play well out of their price range. They don’t go real  deep but probably a good think in an apartment.

https://www.jbl.com/STUDIO+580BK.html?dwvar_STUDIO%20580BK_color=Black-USA-Current

Post removed 

I own a pair of Salk SSM6 

JIM Is a great boutique builder

His build quality is stunning and parts quality

Is of highest quality.

Normally salk owners rarely sell

So if you have an opportunity

To purchase used that would be a great

Opportunity. Also remember

Wirh his direct to end user business

Model anything he sells would

Be at least double the price when compared

To other speaker mfg's .

I have also owned a pair of Buchardt S400's and 

A good used pair of those should

Also be on your radar

A small pair of Ohm towers would likely tick off all your boxes.  Plenty available used here and on popular auction sites.  New ones are a good value too.  I have owned my 2000s since 2009 with never any regrets.  In your room, the MicroWalsh Tall would probably be a good fit.  Check the Ohm Speakers web site for more info.  (Other than being a customer and fanboy, I have no affiliation with Ohm.)

 

@labguy,

“Solid state front end. May upgrade to a better integrated but plan to stay solid state.”

 

Are you using a home theater reciever, vintage integrated, etc. What is it you have exactly. Home theater Receiever on an efficient speaker may sound ok but is gonna fall flat on something like the Salk’s that you mentioned. 
 

Used Tektons or some new Tektons for that price is a good choice and can play nice with most electronics. The JBL 580 mentioned above I think is a good suggestion also. I’m sure the Salk’s are great as well but prepared to be underwhelmed if you don’t have a pretty descent front end. 

+1 for Vandersteens. Have owned 3 pairs since the 80s. They are a great all-around speaker, but you need to be sure your seated ear height is at or lower than tweeter level. They are very picky about that. Stand up and you lose most of the treble energy. Stay seated, at the correct height, and they will reward you with very good, non-fatiguing, well-balanced sound.

i would add to @tomcarr ’s comment on vandy's that they also like fairly serious power and damping factor (usually means substantial solid state amp) to get the excellent bass response they are designed to deliver

I like your idea of the KEF R3s.  If the KEF sound is to your taste they are less picky about placement than many other brands. This is helpful in a smaller room where there are limited placement options.  Down the road you will want to upgrade the sub.

 

As others have mentioned, what ever gear you have it will only sound as good as the room allows.  Room treatments are the biggest no brainer out there!  Cheers

In a small room a KEF LS50 Meta + a KEF KC62 sub is a killer combo. I loved this combo for the past year+. I sold the sub recently and looking to sell the LS50 Meta because my new amp does not play nice with subs. I will be getting the KEF Reference 1 meta for the same small room (no sub needed).

I am listening to the LS50 Meta right now with a CODA #16 amp and the amount of bass is the most I have ever heard (without a sub). The rush to upgrade on this sound is not that great, but I will eventually. The CODA #16 plays fine with subs, it is another amp that I am working to play nice in this room.

Only caveat is that you need power for the LS5 Meta to get the best out of them like I am. Though high quality power is not that expensive.

 

 

I’m in a similar situation to @labguy, and have been looking for a pair of speakers in the $2000 or less range. The JBL 580/590 has been on my list, but I am having a hard time hitting the buy button. I read tons of great reviews, but I wonder if they sound great because of the cost, or if they sound great period. My room is small at 12’x12’, but I’ll be moving to a larger room (12’x18’) in the next year or so, after a home renovation. I’ve read comments about the 590’s overpowering small rooms, but no mention of what a small room is. Also on my short list is the Sonus Faber Lumina 5’s. I heard these at a hifi shop and was pretty impressed, but it wasn’t in my room with my equipment, and the dealer is 3 hours away, so in home demo’s aren’t really an option. My last strong consideration is a kit speaker from CSS audio, the TD1X with the 3 way bass module add on. I’ve read glowing review after glowing review, and it sounds like these lean to the warm side of presentation, which I strongly prefer. With cross over upgrades, flat pack cabinets, and the bass modules, these come in under $2000, allowing money for veneers and finishing. My gut tells me I’m getting the most speaker for the money on the CSS kit, because I’m adding my labor for assembly and finish work, and there’s no distributer/dealer mark up, which is likely the bulk of the cost of a $2000 speaker. 

I just sold my CSS Criton 1TDX. They are a very nice speaker and definitely lean to the warm side but are still detailed enough and are dynamic. Remind me a lot of higher end Dynaudios. Also they like power. 

Damn! I didn’t know that add on bass module existed! I likely would have kept them and tried out the bass module had I known. I prefer a 3 way for more dynamic music. 

@onebean 

Get the 580's and the matching sub that is on sale too (at $179 for the sub you can get a pair if you want) look at the return policy, they pay shipping both ways, no risk:

 

Return Policy

You may return any item you purchased on JBL.com, within 30 calendar days of your package being delivered, subject to the terms & exceptions below.

We will gladly exchange your product for the same model (subject to availability) or give you a refund for the full amount of the merchandise including taxes. We will provide a free pre-paid label to return your order. Gift wrap and shipping charges are not refundable. 

 

Wow that is a damn deal! I’m tempted although I don’t need them. Heard a lot of good things about them. 

I have a pair of PMC Fb1i Signatures listed (on the free site) that are perfect for that size room.  PMC’s use transmission lines so they have superior bass for their size, and are used in many major recording studios.  Only downside is the high price when new.

@kota1 thanks for the info! I saw the 30 day home trial, but assumed I'd be on the hook for return shipping if I didn't keep them. Shipping those heavy beasts would likely be expensive. 

Do you know how close I can run the 580's to the wall (unfortunately the port is on the back and not the front)? We are planning a dedicated theater room in our renovation, and I'd like to keep the speakers flat against the wall, so I can run an acoustically transparent screen in front of them without using a bunch of room depth. The JBL's might be perfect for this application.  

The 580 don’t reach too low in the bass and should be fine just a 1’ or 2 off the wall. They are a good balanced speaker and really special for the money. I would want to run subs with them. This cheap JBL subs kind of suck but they are super cheap lol. 
 

the only think with the 580s is the center is total junk and way too small. If you are going to use a AT screen I would buy 3 580s. 
 

the new line is the 6 series and looks much nicer and has a much better center.

 

https://youtu.be/P9mCCW5Xq-A  

@onebean

Re: placement page 3 in the manual states you move them closer to the wall to increase bass but doesn’t give a minimum distance for back walls, only side walls (20 inches for side walls).

In my experience if you find that you have too much bass you can either:

A) Place a sock loosely in the ports.

B) Place an absorption panel behind the speaker.

https://www.jbl.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-masterCatalog_Harman/default/dw356fc2fb/pdfs/STUDIO580_OM_EN.pdf

The matching sub is marked down from $599 to $179 and JBL makes excellent subs, I own the JBL 10 inch for the Studio 2 series. At this price you might want to get a pair.

There are some very good suggestions here, but I'd like to weigh in with my own: Ryan R610. I've owned a pair for several years now and have not really been tempted to upgrade. On the used market they sell for way under $2K (they're about that new), but the problem is that they almost never come up on the used market. That's how good they are. Of course, as with any speaker, the electronics driving them are a factor, as are the cables (and in this case, the jumpers unless you bi-amp them) but for musical, balanced, non-fatiguing sound, very few speakers in this price range can beat them. 

If bang for your buck is the main consideration, some sort of DIY kit speaker can  offer an amazing value by using the same drivers that are found in expensive speakers ($25,000+).  

I don't review specs, they are flawed in many ways  believe.  At $2k budget Wharfedale Linton 85 come to mind. Unless you want vintage.

I don't want vintage,  the croton tdx are definitely bargains,  but I would not be inclined to build them myself. The bang for the buck I was thinking of was great sounding speakers that sell for irresistible prices on the second hand market. As someone already pointed out, sometimes those great speakers are hard to find on the second hand market because people tend to keep them. I like the idea of getting a Salk veracity ht2 vs the songtower (both are great I'm sure, but the ht2 is probably better but bigger.). I do wonder if for a small space (15'x11') if the cabinet space of transmission line design takes up more cost and space than cheaper and simpler port designs.

I have no idea if the Salk songtower or veracity ht2 would walk all over the Arendal 1723 speakers, but those 1723 seem to be on the current speaker "hype train" , and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious about which choice would be better. (Largely due to the fact that I've heard neither and I have absolutely no clue because of so many available options)