I am not sure I would recommend a vintage cartridge (many of the best of which will cost $1000 and more) to a person who is new to the hobby or is just now trying to upgrade for the first time. Because one cannot be sure of the condition of the suspension of a very old cartridge, and because one must take the word of a private seller as to condition even of the stylus. Before I would buy an expensive vintage cartridge these days, I would insist that it must be inspected by an independent source, like SoundSmith. SS will do such an inspection for a nominal sum. The peace of mind is well worth the cost. I do own and enjoy several fine vintage cartridges, but I bought them when they were relatively cheap and tried to stick to cartridges that were truly NOS to begin with. I've had only one bad experience, after having made at least a dozen such purchases.
Meantime, I can vouch for the AT ART7 as a superb cartridge that competes with all of my expensive LOMCs and can be bought new. Beware, however, that its output is low, 0.12mV. You need at least 65db of total gain before the amplifier input.
|
The reviews often has nothing to do with reality, most of the reviewers never ever tried a bunch of exceptionally good vintage cartridges, they can only compare one new to another new models, this is a lack of knowledge and experience. It is almost impossible to find a negative review on anything, but the truth is that a great cartridge from the past with price tag under $1k can be better than new cartridge with price tag over $5k. The reviewer will not tell you about the winners from the past, they can only say something about a product they are reviewing.
The best cartridges for the money are vintage MM/MI from the late 70s - early 80s. Some nice LOMC from the same era also 10 times cheaper than anything new and can be found NOS.
A choice of NEW cartridges is very limited and the price for inferior models are insane compared to vintage models in perfect condition. Some cheap modern cartridges are pure garbage in terms of sound quality, but the marketing department work well to promote them. |
Read the reviews and audition a Sumiko Blackbird, high output or low whatever your preference. It's in your price range to...
|
Chakster, glad to get a second vote of confidence for that. I am still trying to get an additional SPU headshell for easy swap outs and its not been easy to locate at non-ludicrous prices on flea bay. |
You might want to consider a Miyajima.
Miyajima is a killer MC, i got one finally for my Ikeda IT-345 and it's Kansui model. |
Still have the Art9 as first choice or Hana SL as second choice on my Project 9C arm. Depends on my final budget. |
Tha ks Terry, it was fun researching your suggestions. Miyajima looks interesting. My harder first task is finding an extra headshell for the Ortofon RMG212.
People are asking $hundreds + which seems steep even for A rare item like this. |
You might want to consider a Miyajima. I have the Zero for mono LP's, and it’s very good, especially for the price. |
Alucard, I appreciate your thorough response. That helps me get a better sense of what you are hearing from the cartridges. I don’t know if I have ever owned an AT cart, so your experience with them is great. Given that I did just throw down on the SS MIMC , I am probably set for the foreseeable future.
The one thing I will still be looking for is another Ortofon headshell for the TD124 that I can dedicate for 78’s.
Anyone have good suggestions for a 78 cart? I may need to search archives or repost this as a new thread. |
The AT33PTG/II is very good at extracting the low deep bass from the music and also being able to not add anything to the mids while still being able to bring out the highs without sounding tinny or shrill, plus it is still afordable for midpriced systems and has a microlinear stylus.The AT-ART9 is a good cartridge for those people that take care and have meticulously clean records, it let's all the subtleties of the music shine through, but it there is any dirt or dust on the record this cartridge will also let you here all of the noise and pops on the record as well.The AT-ART7 well if you want a cartridge that sounds great with classical or orchestral music where there are many varied instruments all playing together this cartridge let's you distinguish all of the differing sounds with clarity and detail while not breaking the bank, it can be used on turntables of any price range and will not make you think you just settled for a lesser cartridge, but let you enjoy the savings of having to spend 5k-10k for a cartridge that might be better but not that much musically better.
|
Alucard, what do you like about each of those carts?
|
You can try one of these 3 cartridges.1) Audio Technica AT33PTG/II $549.002) Audio Technica AT-ART9 $990.003) Audio Technica AT-ART7 $1,090.00
|
Ok, so some new changes in my source world. I still have the Bryston TT with the Dynavector 20x2, but I recently acquired a Thorens TD124v2, and decided to go all out (for me.) I am using a SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star cartridge. Even better lateral imaging and depth than the DV, a less forward presentation, very low noise. I am sure there are other differences, but this is still too new an addition to the system (about 6 record sides), and variations in loading etc may have a role that I still haven't noticed.
|
I have the Shibata stylus version of the AT VM750 at $400. It's good. One poster suggested buying one and saving the $1000. I also have a $1500 London/Decca SuperGold and it wipes the floor with the AT. So you might consider actually spending the full amount. |
Thanks Terry. I will have to check what albums matchc your criteria. |
Don’t know if this will work for you, but I adjust azimuth by finding an undamaged record which sounds noticeably better on one channel than it does on the other.
Some of the Harmonia Mundi choral selections with strings have this characteristic on my system. Also Maurice Andre’s Bach for Trumpet.
First, adjust visually so that the stylus is as nearly perpendicular to the record surface as possible. Then put on the above record and play a few bars.
Then change the azimuth slightly in one direction, clockwise or counterclockwise, it doesn’t matter. If it sounds worse (difference is more pronounced), return to the original setting and try the other direction. If it sounds better (difference is less), try more of the same. Gradually zero in on a setting in which the channels sound similar.
Take your time. You’ve got hundreds of hours to get it right. Good hunting!
|
Oh yes, so I listened to Purcell’s the Indian Queen, Herbie Hancock’s and a mono pressing of Clarence Williams. On the Purcell, the new cart seems to have tamed some of the treble glare that was annoying me on the Denon—which remains a really musical cartridge I gotta say. I want to put it to some more high frequency tests in the coming week. |
@hifiman5, I think i wasn’t clear enough. I picked up a lightly used Dynavector from my super awesome dealer, so the cart is already broken in. I also would have preferred the low output, but at half the price of a new one, I figured it was a good way for me to experience the Dynavector sound on my home system. That said, with my 40 watt amp, the extra oomph of the HO might be worth whatever reduced speed it causes. I’d kinda want to compare the carts A/B to see if I can detect a difference at my current level of listening discernment. (I finally picked up a copy of Robert Harley’s book and he does a good job of explaining how to better listen, so hopefully that will help).
I have toggled between 40/50/60 dbl gain and even adjusting spl to the same volume using the decibel app on my phone, I prefer it at the 60 gain setting. Sounds richer. Not why this should be. Anyone have ideas? |
@dramatictenor. From your post, you sound quite capable of setting up the cartridge properly. I just never trusted myself to get it as right as a technician with the requisite equipment to affirm cartridge alignment. @mattmiller I believe was encouraging you to have the low, not high output version of the 20X2. Frankly, if I had the phono stage then that I have now, I would have the low output version as well as most vinyl files purport that the low output MC's reproduce more air and fine details. No regrets though, I listened to Bizet's L'Arlsienne last night and it was just gorgeous with loads of detail and dynamic flow.
As with all audio components, allow your new cart. to break in. Please share your experiences with it as it matures. Happy Listening!
|
@mattmiller, I think you missed my last post—as I did get exactly the cartridge you suggested. I have only listened to two sides but am just back from work finally and am gonna spin some more music. Purcell is on my agenda. I want to hear how it deals with some operatic sopranos and high strings. |
@hifiman5, I have a feickart protractor, a vtf scale, and a fastidious nature. I am sure there are always additional levels of dialing things in, but part of my own goal—particularly as someone who wants to slowly build a small cartridge fleet, is to be able to properly align a cartridge in the 7 variables i have identified (cartridge shell alignment/cantilever alignment, azimuth, vtf, vta, overhang, screw torque, geometry). I will have to trust my ears, but I am open to suggestions and ideas for best set-up procedures.
Have you used Michael Fremer’s dvd? I dont have that and am wondering if it is worthwhile or adds on to the other excellent information available. |
Hey Drama, You have some of my favorite speakers, the Totems are super revealing as long as things up stream are very good as well. Having said that I would highly consider a Dynavector 20X2, I know its expensive but rather than fiddle around with your old 103, and seeing as you have a very capable phono stage why not give your system what it really needs, a cartridge like the Dynavector 20X2L would add details, dynamics and colors, as well as beauty of tone that the 103 is not going to bring to light.
Matt M
|
@dramatictenor. Congrats. on your choice. I am on my second iteration of the very same cartridge. I think of it is a very honest sounding cart. as it seems to play fairly with all frequencies in the spectrum and reproduces dynamic swing in a very natural way. Be sure you have it aligned exactly! The microcline stylus is very fussy about setup. It is worth seeking out a specialist with the equipment to set it up exactly. Pay him/her a reasonable fee and relax and enjoy the music. Happy vinyling. |
Hi everyone. So I finally pulled the plug. Got a Dynavector 20x2H. My dealer had a demo one with 150 hours on it. Would have preferred the LO, but at $5 bills I couldn’t turn it down. Spent an hour getting it aligned just so. So far, I have only had a chance to listen to Sonny Rollins “A Night at the Village Vanguard.” John Lewis on keys, connie Kay on druns, etc.
The alto sax and cymbals are two real stand outs. Amazing decay on the cymbals, and the timbre on the sax is luscious.
Music is fuller and more present without being forward at al. It will be interesting getting to know this microline sweetie.
|
|
Maybe it is not just about math and resonance in theory, the low compliance cartridge just better on superheavy tonearms, they are designed for superheavy tonearms, change the arm to something with 20-30g effective mass and your Denon will be better on heavy arm. Very simple. With heavy arm like Fidelity-Research FR-64s you can only improve the sound of your Denon 103.
Static compliance of the Denon is widely thought to be around 10 (rule of thumb seems to be double the stated compliance of a Japanese cart).
You need dynamic compliance, no static. And yes ... x 1.7 ... to find out the number at 10Hz @yeti42 I’m going to try an SPU Royal N on an arm I can get up to 18g affective mass and it’s a heavy cartridge. My SPU Royal G mkII was very impressive on FR-64fx and Lustre GST-801 tonearms, with its modern Replicant 100 stylus it will put any oldschool cartridges like DL-103 to a shame. The Royal N is just the same, but without SPU headshell if i remember correct. If you have high mass tonearm you can also look for FR-7fz or Miyabi cartridges. |
Yeti,
I was merely sharing another audiophile's thinking. What I do feel comfortable saying is that our math doesn't always describe the real world...which is another way of saying that there are often factors that we can't always describe at current state of knowledge, but which challenge orthodox thinking regardless.
I don't know why the Denon sounds good on this table, but it does. That said, I am still hesitating to pull the trigger on something that hopefully will sound great. |
I thought 1.7 was the factor to convert compliance at 100Hz to that at 10Hz. This gives 8.5 and with a Rega 300 at 11.5 gives a resonance of 12 to 13 Hz, a little high which, might be part of the reason for the popularity of heavier alternative bodies.
|
From Andrew Ballew: Overall, the Denon is a better cart to my ears. Oh, and the intermodulation distortion I was getting has been greatly reduced. Only happens on a couple offending albums, now. But, this shouldn't be, right?? I have seen the question popped on several forums, including this one, I think. The answer is always the Denon is a low compliance cart and WILL NOT WORK with a Rega arm. I'm not really sure where that comes from. If you have heard the combo, you know it works fine. If you do the math, combining the Denon with a Rega arm gives you a resonant frequency of 11.3 hz. Static compliance of the Denon is widely thought to be around 10 (rule of thumb seems to be double the stated compliance of a Japanese cart). Rega arm (RB303) is estimated to be 11 grams. The Denon Cart is 8.5 grams. What the resonance frequency should be is arguable. But it seems that the range between 8hz and 12 hz is considered acceptable. And, my math says I am right there. |
I’m going to try an SPU Royal N on an arm I can get up to 18g affective mass and it’s a heavy cartridge. Word from my arm’s builder is that this may not be enough but give it a try. I’m replacing a Transfiguration Proteus, now an orphan cartridge, and it will be a hard act to follow so something radically different may help stop me comparing it too harshly. I still have a part worn 17D3 but the Proteus did everthing that cartridge did only better. The 17D is still a good cartridge though, I used several of them for 25 years on a Rock mk2 with an RB300.
|
"What do you know about your arm, was the 103 a good match?"
Seems like a good match. 10 gram effective mass or so. It’s written down somewhere. No way 10g is optimal for an oldschool low compliance cartridge like Denon 103. At least 20g effective mass! And very few modern arm will be as high in effective moving mass. 30g will be even better, remember that compliance of Denon 103 is extremely low, this is a stiff cartridge, so superheavy effective mass is a must! Tonearms with 10g mass designed for mid of high compliance cartridges. It is always surprise me when people buying an oldschool monster like dl-103 without having an appropriate tonearm for this cartridge, it is absolutely pointless. |
Yeti, thanks.
"A bit more output than the 103 wouldn’t go amiss if the 60dB quoted as the maximum gain for an unbalanced output for your phonostage by Absolute sounds is accurate."
Easily accurate, yes.
"What do you know about your arm, was the 103 a good match?"
Seems like a good match. 10 gram effective mass or so. It's written down somewhere.
"I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of a London Decca I fitted to an Aro recently, and rather disappointed when it started humming when a neighbour turned something or other on in the adjacent apartment, probably his TV or a computer or some such."
I moved through testing many phono pre's before landing on the JC Junior precisely because it out right rejected RFI from a nearby antenna that the other 'stages couldn't silence.
"If you can get to hear one a 17DX might give the apheta a run for its money but you’re into micro line there so you’ll need clean records, the plus side is the 2000 hour plus stylus life if you don’t mess up the bias setting (like I did on my first D2)."
Well, depends how clean clean is. I have a RCM, but I clean once, and then just rely on new sleeves, carbon fiber brush and occasional groove glide. Also, I don't use anti-skating, not on my Thorens and the Bryston doesn't even come with it. I guess I fall in the school that doesn't believe in it.
"I’ve heard the Atom at the factory driving Sopra 1s and at a dealership driving some Russell K floor standers, on both occasions the object was to show the improvement to be had from the Star and Nova, I’ve not hears it with speakers that were chosen for the Atom, oh and I’ve heard it powering some Shahinian Hawks surprisingly well, though not well enough to live with, its still an entry level product, how much cartridge does it need?"
Well that's a great question. At some point, I may get an amp and use the atom as a streamer. Not to play louder, which I don't regularly do, but to provide more presence at lower volume.
But I've listened to very expensive cartridges on nominally very resolving systems, and I don't always hear more than what I hear with a 2k cartridge. So maybe my ears are shot (not what the tests show, though my highs do disappear at 12khz. This aging thing...)
Still, I tend to think that transducers are the parts of the system which make the clearest sonic difference, and that makes me think that a substantial cartridge upgrade is worth a try.
|
Some random thoughts:
A bit more output than the 103 wouldn’t go amiss if the 60dB quoted as the maximum gain for an unbalanced output for your phonostage by Absolute sounds is accurate.
What do you know about your arm, was the 103 a good match?
I’ve been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of a London Decca I fitted to an Aro recently, and rather disappointed when it started humming when a neighbour turned something or other on in the adjacent apartment, probably his TV or a computer or some such.
If you can get to hear one a 17DX might give the apheta a run for its money but you’re into micro line there so you’ll need clean records, the plus side is the 2000 hour plus stylus life if you don’t mess up the bias setting (like I did on my first D2).
The D2 lacked a bit for body but the range has been improving there, it never lacked for speed.
I’ve heard the Atom at the factory driving Sopra 1s and at a dealership driving some Russell K floor standers, on both occasions the object was to show the improvement to be had from the Star and Nova, I’ve not hears it with speakers that were chosen for the Atom, oh and I’ve heard it powering some Shahinian Hawks surprisingly well, though not well enough to live with, its still an entry level product, how much cartridge does it need?
I get the succession thing, I have some Thiels and a Transfiguration, the latter will be very hard to replace. Ortofon and AT won’t suffer from that though AT have been known to drop support for some of their discontinued cartridges after a disappointingly short while.
|
|
now that Shure is out of the game, what are you doing for replacement styluses?
JICO SAS |
Hey, here is an interesting interesting quote from an Art Dudley review of the Peachtree Nova 300: After experiencing an excess of lightness from CDs and SACDs, I braced myself for similar results from LPs—and was relieved to hear no such thing: perhaps a simple consequence of the fact that the Shindo SPU pickup I was using has a proper, God-fearing spherical stylus, which doesn't lighten or brighten recordings as can other styli. Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/peachtree-audio-nova300-integrated-amplifier-page-2#54RZs8i2uEBK...Given our discussion about stylus profiles in here, I thought it was a refreshing take to hear what a great ear has to say about the advantages of a spherical stylis vs the disadvantage of other shapes. |
Elliot, Thanks for sharing your perspective’s. I spent a lot of time on alignment also. I was a chef in my first career, and precision of tools in there use is deeply ingrained in me. So I feel like that is handled. I have a Shure M97xe in “my fleet” as well, and have always enjoyed it’s “buttery” sonics, athough the sound is also more “dampedl than my Denon103r and other cartridges I have heard. It also didn’t have as high end extension or crispness—and I am old enough to be limited in that area, so that says something.
But apart from that, now that Shure is out of the game, what are you doing for replacement styluses?
As for the Stylast, I use it before every side. I have hd the current bottle three years, and I imagine the bottle will last at least another 5+, so I can’t worry about that. |
I'm 71,
My cartridge/stylus comments are below, but consider them in the context of my aged attitude:.
Practical over esoteric; fine quality is good enough; chase great recordings, discover new artists, rather than tweaks.
I believe analog process records/reproduces overtones correctly, resulting in more involvement than digital even if analog involves more noise.
Similarly, that is why I prefer Tubes to SS. (Thus concentrate on efficient speakers to reduce power demands, which gets big, hot, expensive using tubes.
Primary, far and above anything else, is speaker matching and placement in any given listening space, very often unrealized.
..................................................
TT: mass mechanics/cartridge alignment most important, effects results more than cartridge/stylus 'quality'. Just yesterday, I re-checked my recent cartridge alignment, and found it ever so 'off', I re-did everything, listened, improvement far beyond any cartridge/stylus change I have used. That's after years of alignment experience. The mechanics are most important.
I have moved from elliptical to Micro-Line (both Shure and AT), back to Elliptical (current Shure M97xE). Always MM, never MC, avoiding adding the challenge of another amplification stage.
I've heard esoteric MM and MC, brought my own familiar LP's to friends, demos, showrooms. I'm sticking with M97xE.
After years of Thorens/SME/Microline: both my spare virgin Shure ML and AT ML sit unused in the drawer, I prefer the elliptical.
I found ML added a frequent need of deep groove cleaning that I found tedious, in the way of spontaneous listening sessions. Many times ML resulted in more noise than elliptical, especially AT without the brush.
I definitely want Shure's brush (anti-static, anti-skip, an additional level of soft touchdown).
I also find the brush reduces the gunk on the stylus, reducing frequency of StyLast, thus consumption of the fluid is prolonged (not the reason, just the result).
Misalignment, aside from less than optimal results, is a cause of groove damage. IF Micro-Line is misaligned, my instinct tells me ML will do more damage to grooves than elliptical, and, if bottom groove damage has occurred, using elliptical slightly higher in the groove can produce more satisfying results. That's instinct, certainly not facts.
|
A vote for Sound Smith! I'd get whichever one of theirs you can afford, and enjoy knowing that it doesn't get any better (maybe equal, but not better). |
+1 with rwortman. VM540ML is the same stylus as the VM740ML, and nearly the same cartridge body, at a couple hundred dollars cheaper. I have two VM540ML cartridges and I’m amazed how good they sound compared to lesser cartridges. The micro line profile is also the longest lasting at 800 to 900 hours, and you can try the Shibata or special line contact styli if you want, using the existing cartridge body.
|
I humbly suggest the Nagaoka MP500. Sounds excellent to me. Well rounded.
boron cantilever if I remember correctly |
Thanks Raul, and ive enjoyed reading your extensive information on cartridges btw
|
Dear @dramatictenor : """
I don’t base purchasing decisions solely on the presence of negative feedback on the Internet. I have never yet encountered a product that I could purchase in which I have not uncovered negative feed back.... """
Agree, is stupid a different way of thinking.
Good luck in your leraning hunter.
R. |
This thread has been more informative and fun than I imagined. Thanks everyone. Such great ideas and knowledge. |
VM740ML and spend the $1000 you have left on something else.
|
I purchased a Kiseki Blue for less than your budget from the seller below recently and am very happy with it.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9gb42-kiseki-blue-n-s-brand-new-cartridges
Other cartridges I have to compare it to - Hana SL, Van Den Hul MC Two, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood, Denon DL 301 MKII, Nagaoka MP500. The Kiseki is in another league, only the Van Den Hul comes close to retrieving the amount of detail of the Kiseki. |
|
As for your question to me about Ortofon, Of course pins coming out is an issue. However, I don’t base purchasing decisions solely on the presence of negative feedback on the Internet. I have never yet encountered a product that I could purchase in which I have not uncovered negative feed back. Everything manufactured has defects, at least if there is some amount of volume in the production line. I remember back in the 80s, some cartridge companies charged more for their highest end cartridges. When asked the difference between that and the next lower product, their response was that it was the exact same product, but that they discarded more of the hire and products and label them as their next highest level. Wish i could remember that company but I was in college and probably trying to memorize other information back then.
|
Additionally, if I could justify investing the funds, their SG sounds more interesting than their MI but I would rather invest that sort of money in the market than in my toys. |
Chakster, i have read and viewed a lot on the Soundsmith site. And I admire the company’s reputation. One concern I have is that SS seems overly dependent on one individual, at least for its better cartridges, and I haven't learned of a succession plan. Are you aware of one? That would be helpful to know. |
