I agree 100%. It pisses me off to have to do an internet search to find out the power rating. A few weeks back I came sooo close to buying an amp that I really liked and thought would be a good fit. It was a very large piece of equipment so I thought for sure the amp was at least 150wpc or higher. After doing the internet search, I found the amp was only 60wpc, class a/ab. Thank God I didn't pull the trigger on it.
Guilty as charged, sorry I did fix it though.
I never list any of the salient aspects of the gear that I am selling, other than condition. The reason, simple, after many, many transactions, if someone has not done the research to know what they are buying, I really don't want to sell to them. I am a hobbyist not a retailer.
Now, you could make the argument that they are going to see that I am selling a 400 watt amp and then figure out if it is what they need, but my practial experience runs counter to this. BTW, IMHO the input impedance of an amp or the output impedance of a preamp, is going to be a much more salient bit of info than how many watts an amp puts out.
So yes, in my estimation it is too much to ask. And I understand that may preclude us from doing business, but it seems that we are both comfortable with that.
Wow, Viridian, I am surprised at your response. Certainly the items you mentioned are important. But, after all, an amp's main job is to amplify the signal. And how hard would it be to simply list the mfgr's output ratings?
It wouldn't be hard at all..but I explained why I won't be doing it.
And an amps job is to linearly amplify a signal, something it won't be doing if there is a significant impedance mismatch with the output impedance of the preamp driving it.
It's a simple copy and paste. I include specs because I want to recoup some money fast. You have 30 days to sell in a crappy economy so I'm willing to take the 5 seconds to paste the specs in there. I haven't sold a lot of gear but I look at a lot and I know who I will NOT buy from. That's the people with no specs and no pictures. If you're reading this please dust your gear before you take the picture.
Don, you bring up an interesting point. I always post pictures and if there is a defect, I highlight it. But I love to purchase things from sellers with no pictures, no feedback and/or English as a second language. It's certainly a risk, but the selling price may end up being half of what it would normally be. Those things are going to cost you money in your selling price. But no specs, I'm not sure, however your point about time to sale seems quite salient and right on the money.
I can't say that I disagree with you, BUT, I also can't see any reason not to include ALL the info. Doesn't make any sense to me. People do want to see that. In the end, the more info you give them in the listing, the better for you.
Power gives some idea, but it is pretty much useless specification without knowing how it was measured. My amp, for instance, has module rated at 200W/4ohm but only 55W according to FTC measurement (that requires 1 hour preheat). It is possible for the lower continuous power amp to be actually louder. Music power delivered to speakers is only a few percent of peak power (unless anybody listens to sinewaves). What about distortions? Bel Canto makes the same amp as Rowland 102 (same B&O module) with 300W rating since they specify it at 10% distortions. In addition overdriving some amps is painful (odd harmonics) while other amps (including mine) have soft clipping. There is also not that much difference when power doubles (only 22% of perceived loudness). Perhaps it would be better to know peak power and max current but most often it is not available.
while I can see the OP point, I also tend to agree with Viridian
If I am buying an amp here, i don't need to know Specs--I am into this hobby so I will get the information myself which I feel is critical.
If I were selling locally on Craigslist, people want to know Specs----like when I was selling my Linear Power car amp which is rated at 75 watts for $300 and someone let me know they could buy a 2000 watt amp at the flea market new for $69
Listing basic pertinent specs speeds up a possible sale. A amp's current may indeed be more telling than watts when it comes to drive and quality. But best to list something. Inquiring minds can take it from there.
Pictures, front and back of the unit go along way.
I don't think it is necessary to list all the specs but if you are selling an amp the least you can do is state the power rating in the ad. Even so I think most potential buyers will google the amp to see if the ad is accurate.
Also agree with Viridian.
If the supposed buyer cannot bother to KNOW what he is looking for, then I also would not want to sell to them.
I want the buyer to KNOW what they want, and be certain they will want exactly what i was selling.
I am not interested in just dumping it off on the first fool passing by.
I normally don't put in full amp specs because it can clutter up an ad. If data about the amp can be easily found via a search engine I'll leave out the specs. Most prospective buyers will research the amp anyway.
One time I got burned with the amp specs in an ad.It was with a McCormack DNA-1. I had found some literature had it at 150 watts/channel and then put that in the ad. Then it was pointed out to me that it put out 185 watts/channel.
You ain't got no money anyway ya bum, just like most everyone else here. A lotta whine no dine from people like you. There needs to be a whine catagorey so people can get their whine on. Maybe you should get a clue.
Hello Elizabeth, what you just said in theory sounds about right but it won't work in these new economic conditions if you intently want to sell. Most Audiophiles need to sell what they have to help make the next purchase. Knowimg that, anything that would inform the buyer including stating the specs is helpful. Another thing is that Audiogon has lost many seasoned audiophiles and there are many newcomers that need to be informed as to the the fitness of the item being sold
Amazing. What seems would simply be a courtesy to provide the info for members of this forum, smacks of the same sales snobbery that potential buyers have faced in brick and mortar audio stores for decades.
If that's your attitude, every question asked here could be answered on some other website. But the majority of you take the time to answer those questions and help those with questions. You can extend the same courtesy while selling an item, it doesn't take that much more effort to write '100 wpc @ 8 ohms'.
I'd hate to be a newbie trying to buy something from those of you with that attitude. Those attitudes don't do the hobby any good. Thankfully, there are enough people here that are willing to be a little more helpful in the sales process.
RW, no, it is not too much to ask.
As I expect many others here do, I browse a lot, and often see items that are unfamiliar to me (that's part of the fun of browsing). If the basics are not listed, I browse on(and all the quicker if I see "If you're reading this, you know . . . ").
My browsing only occasionally leads to unexpected buying, which make me think sellers who do not list basics don't miss too many sales for this reason.
In what seems to me a very tough market for sellers, though, I wonder why anyone would want to miss out on a chance for a sale, even a slight chance. I guess some people find typing in a few lines of info more burdensome than others, or find emails asking about the unlisted basics less annoying.
To each their own!
while I understand the perspective Viridian (ie hobbyist), but I tend to include basic info and sometimes paste in complete spec's to help my odds of selling.
What drives me nuts is guys who paste in complete mfg spec's and features lists, but say absolutely nothing about the condition of the item.
Wow! ditto, Mitch4t, amazing. No, it's not too much to ask Rlwainwright. Listing the power rating should be no big deal. (not the big deal that some of the posters are making) Sure the buyer needs to do their due diligence and learn what they don't know about the product through research. Once again you have forum members here that exhibit audiophile "off-putting" attitudes. It's like a seller saying "you don't know the product, so I'm not going to help you learn anything, and your money is no good here." Ludicrous....
For me having specs in the ad is not important as I tend to know what Im looking for and have done my homework in advance
.but I am an audio hobbyist, therefore, I have a broader knowledge then a casual Agon passerby.
Im more interested in what cannot be found on manufactures websites, like the condition of the amplifier, any modifications/repair history, does the owner have original packing for safe shipping, is the warrantee transferable, does the owner have experience in shipping large heavy items, etc. Does he provide high resolution pictures? For me, these are important facts.
I understand Viridian's point about the type of buyer he prefers to deal with and that's his right as a seller. However, sellers should know that perceptions cut both ways. When I see an ad without much of a description, it smacks of deception or laziness (true or not I'm entitled to my opinion). If a person is lazy when posting an ad for something they want (a sale), how lazy were they when maintaining the equipment? I agree with Donjr about the dust and have recently commented on it in another thread (more laziness - see above).
If I'm in the market for something, yes I have done the research and know what I'm buying. But when I see something like "if you're looking at this ad ..." without anything else listed, it tells ME something about the seller. I refuse to do business with this type of seller and that is my right. I also won't buy from someone who doesn't post pictures or only stock pictures and if the item is more than ~ $100 I will need to talk with you first. Like Jedinite, I don't want to see the whole marketing brochure in the ad but a cut and paste of the spec section from the manufacturer's web site really doesn't take that much effort.
Too many buyers expect to be spoon fed audio knowledge and a minimalist ad can screen out those not willing to do a little research on power, distortion, matching, etc. Remember there are three kinds of lies. Lies, damn lies, and specifications. Watts per channel info. is for the most part useless information. You need to know how the amp behaves at 8-4-2 Ohms if a SS amp and a difficult load, and how much power is available at 20 hz up to 20khz. I have seen some 125 wpc tube amps only eek out 25 wpc into a 50hz load, and this was rolling severely at both ends. But at the benign 1 khz they can make rated power. Put a little stress in the mix and the amp nearly went belly up. When you see the amp for sale it will list 120wpc which is accurate as long as your music doesnt deviate far from 1khz. In my book, bass counts and if it can't make rated power into the frequency extremes it is unusable power. If those specs matter the decision is yours. Jallen
Uuummmm....why would people "look at 40 or 50 amps", used I presume, in a day, if they don't know anything about the amps they are looking at? I guess a newbie might do that, so maybe it's more important for lower priced equipment to list the wpc.
I do agree, when selling entry level stuff, esp. on CL, it can be esp. useful to try to explain EVERYTHING about it. But people looking for more expensive audio gear, or keyboards, already know what they're looking for.
I mean, why would someone be looking to spend $1-2-3k+ on a used Cary, or C-J, ARC, whatever, amp if they don't know a lot about it already? Research is key, when buying anything, before starting the search, I'd think. Don't know what it is, look it up, it's easy these days.....
No, its not too much to ask at all for a seller to regurgitate the key vendor specs that people base buying decisions on, like power rating, in the case of an amp to make life easier for the buyer. Its the smart thing to do IMHO.
You know what happens when one assumes....
I do not know a lot about a lot of things I see up for sale here initially other than what the seller tells me. If he tells me nothing of interest, I am more likely to take less notice accordingly.
I could be showing my age, but there was a time when Audiogon had sophisticated buyers and sellers. Issues like this would not have come up.
Sophistication and courtesy are not mutually exclusive.
Some of you need to come down off of your high horses.
There simply is no good reason to omit info on anything you are trying to sell. I'm amazed anyone would not put all that in an add. I usually know what I want. (on the rare occasion i'm buying) I also think it's "lazy" when I read "if you are looking at this" That may not be the case at all, but that is the message it sends me. To be honest, I also just disregard that seller. No offense intended Marty.
I remember when you used to be able to post a link in an AudiogoN ad. I used to post a link to the product I was selling web page. I miss that feature.
I've never purchased an item on Audiogon without either knowing the product specs and reputation or researching them. I've enjoyed sales without any specs. In the computer age it is easy to look up all info on an item. I don't think this is a "high horse" issue. Just the way this site works. It's not Craig's list. It's not ebay. I much prefer the ads without specs. Even if some specs were shown, it should not be enough for the conscientious buyer. Use the space for photos of the component and details of your use or ownership. That is what I need to know that the company website and reviewers cannot tell me.
How about those infalted original price specs, seeing more and more of that here.
If I'm truly interested in a product I'll do my own fact finding research.
The OP said he looked at 40 to 50 amps today, seems like he's on the wrong track already.
Good ad copy should address the needs of your audience. Too much copy or not the right info will turn off the audience.
Audiogon has many types of consumers, therefore, there is NO perfect one size fits all ad format and copy. There is no right or wrong
.its just preference.
I didn't realize that we were choosing sides here. I tend to side with Viridian and Onhwy61. I'm still used to the old Audiogon days, when we had educated consumers. Audiogon has changed, there are many more uneducated consumers and even scammers here now. Too many tire kickers and low ballers now. Who decides what the most imporatant spec is? If I'm selling speakers, is it the speakers size or efficiency that is more important?
I've found it easier to just sell on other sites now. There is not nearly as much traffic, but I haven't dealt with an uneducated buyer yet.
My question to RW is... who is lazier? The seller who does not post specs on his product, or the buyer who is not interested enough to look up the specs on his own?
I have never bought anything without doing my due diligence or homework on a product. I've found many ads that have posted misleading specifications. Some will post fake photos too. Are you going to blindly trust a salesman's word??? I suggest that you investigate a potential purchase fully yourself. If you are interested, look up the numbers yourself, after all, you are spending YOUR money.
Whine and whine...
In a post-apocalyptic world, this thread provides good clues as to who would survive vs. who would perish.
Buyers need to do their OWN homework about anything they are considering purchasing! It is a LUXURY to me if the seller is kind enough to provide features and specs, but in this cyberweb era none of us has ANY excuse for not doing the requisite research before purchasing ANYTHING.
Hey, be a true audiophile and be self taught about this activity and hobby. You have to pay to play.
Do as President Lincoln did, READ!
Enough said, and stop whining people!
"My question to RW is... who is lazier? The seller who does not post specs on his product, or the buyer who is not interested enough to look up the specs on his own? "
They are both lazy IMHO.
The two are not mutually exclusive.
A url reference that the buyer can copy and paste to the reference site with the correct specs can suffice. That is probably the approach I would take to provide teh most information possible efficiently.
WHen the buyer checks, having some correct specs available via the add adds seller credibility, which matters.
Sellers can publish what they want or not for whatever reason. If it works it works. But more information is usually better than none, especially with expensive items.
What if a buyer asks a question about specs? Do you bother to help them out then or tell them to do their homework elsewhere first before inquiring?
Seeing an ad for an expensive esoteric item in particular with nothing at all to justify the cost other than the cost itself is a major negative to me. If I were the seller, I would not assume the buyer has the high opinion of the product needed to justify the cost.
Touting expensive gear with nothing measurable to justify the cost is a common practice of audiophiles that is often criticized. I guess if only another audiophile can appreciate what a product offers due to factors that are not measurable or reportable, then why bother publishing any facts? The enlightened audiophile will know? Or is this just a way to market a product whose asking price cannot be justified quantitatively? Its a valid question.
I sell for a living. Anything I can do to "speed up" the sale, is money in my pocket. Why? Because time is money!
If that means posting more info than what is necessary for the sophisticated buyer, but holds the hand of the one who needs it - so be it. As long as I don't misrepresent the product to offend the knowledgeable buyer, the sophisticated buyer shouldn't care. The one who wants the info will appreciate the posted specs. In todays economy, it's a buyers's market and more effort is required on behalf of the seller. It would be interesting to know the time of the sales cycle for those that disagree.
What if a buyer asks a question about specs? Do you bother to help them out then or tell them to do their homework elsewhere first before inquiring?
Mapman, I answer any questions a buyer may have. As to how much numbers mean to anyone in this hobby, I suppose you would have to decide if you feel that music is an objective listening experience or a subjective listening experience.
Personally, I do not get hung up on numbers, they tell you nothing about how a product sounds. They may be of some use when trying to integrate a system though, matching impedences and efficiency requirements, etc. For the objective, who listen by the numbers, I suppose numbers mean more. I lost interest in numbers during the THD wars of the 70's and 80's when global feedback was used to artificially decrease the THD. Amps had "better" specs and sounded worse.
As always in this hobby, YMMV.
"They (specs/numbers) may be of some use when trying to integrate a system though, matching impedences and efficiency requirements, etc."
Exactly! That's why some numbers are important!
A seller that knows which ones matter most impresses me and establishes credibility that helps with all the rest.
You know the more "murky" stuff that might help actually distinguish a product from its numerical peers or just be a lot of BS.
If I am interested in a product and the seller doesn't
provide even the most basic specs or worse, list a product and not say if it is an amp, pre, speaker, etc then I will not buy from them. If the pictures show a lot of dust (are you that lazy that you can't even bother to make the piece you are selling look saleable?), stuff piled on top of it or no pictures and the seller refuses to send pictures then I won't buy from that person. If the seller or buyer doesn't have any feedback then again, I won't do business with that person unless I am selling the item and I get paid via Paypal first.
Lately, there seems to be a lot of jerks selling and buying in the classifieds. And yes, I look at the ads every day and even if I am not looking to buy something, if something catches my eye I may buy the item provided my minimum criteria has been met.
There seems to be a lot of arrogance here as of late and IMHO our hobby can do without it. I always list the minimum specs, take nice pictures, the item looks clean, and I always make a sale within the first week. As a matter of fact, I have listed stuff I thought would never, ever sell but amazingly it does and I am sure it is because the ads look good and the price is right.
There was a guy selling an Audible Illusions Modulus 3A preamp here a couple of months ago and he had the list price of 3,895.00!!! I politely sent him a message saying that price was for the much newer Modulus3B and that the 3A sold for at least a grand less and he told me to go f#%$k myself. So much for honest sellers.
I like ads which list: "Superbugle KX-344" for sale
No description, not even what the hell it is...
Please, if I list an amp and no watts per channel. just skip my ad. Do me a favor.
My last for sale amp I sold to a poster over on A.A. who was asking about an amp. I offered mine via email and yes I sold it to her. She is still happy with it. And I am glad too. Never had to post an ad anyway..
And thus I never had to deal with some whiny idiot. LOL.
I wonder how many here knew the specs of their gear before walking in to buy it and how many knew walking out the door.
Agree with OP. Seller easily knows all specs, especially if they are a dealer or mfr. Don't make buyers hunt for specs, which are not always readily available. Simple courtesy.
Wow, this seems so straight forward and captain obvious. Ya, put the darn watts per channel in the ad as it is an amp after all! Are we really arguing this?
Oh my, no way we humans will avoid falling over the pending fiscal cliff and this thread is my proof:-)
+1 Paraneer and Rockadanny
Specs like this are important too I guess
1. How old is the unit and are you the original owner?2. Is the unit in perfect working order and has it ever been repaired or modified?3. Will you please email me some more pictures of it?4. What service was it used for and how often?5. Why are you parting with it?
+1 Elizabeth. Thank goodness for A.A.
Or one can save alot of time & headaches, by running a blank ad and in the heading use the words: "Guess what I'm selling." If they they don't get it right, they should look elsewhere because I'm sure not going out of my way to type in any description or specs that could possibly result in a sale. Because I'm no idiot.
Agreed,this site was cool before but you knew it couldnt last but thats progress.Anytime something good gets going and the masses find out it naturally starts to decay.Witness the whiner who begs for a meaningless clue.As Groucho Marx would say......cheers,James