Holographic Soundstage ?

In my experience computer audio suffers from a lot of noise inside the computer.

You are probably right for those who use computer without decreasing their electrical noise floor...

But i use computer and my imaging, soundstage fill the room and with appropriate recording even  include the listener on the scene...

But save for vibrations controls and electrical noise floor controls, the more underestimated factor is the acoustic controls...

And acoustic controls is not passive material treatment only with absorbing, diffusive and reflective surface.... It is more than that..... Without that my soundstage, imaging, timbre experience and listener envelopment and source width will be poor....With that i control them at will....

In my experience computer audio suffers from a lot of noise inside the computer. The first victim of that is time accuracy as well as sound staging. Your amp and speakers are capable of great sound staging, your source is definitely not, Get a decent server, I would recommend InnuOS.

Equipment that enables a holographic soundstage within recorded pieces of music, needs to be assessed not in terms of brand names - (although some get close),  rather IMO in terms of its circuitry techniques. A great location for reviewing schematics is hi fi engine https://www.hifiengine.com/manual-library.shtml

Usually linearity, extensive current regulation with voltage stability, and use  of - if we describe mosfets - common gate and common drain typically have this ability,as does a cascode.

Your Krell meets some of these outlooks, and may explain why you prefer it. But it is wise look at all circuitry including your source components, attenuation and cabling and speakers, as each contribute as to how well or how poor your Krell is able to amplify reproduction of music via loudspeakers.       

Hope that helps.

The holographic soundstage you describe, do you consider this is revealing what is already in recordings ? 

IMO its already there in abundance, if you want it.  A second question, can you name a piece of music you consider is representative,  of having a holographic soundstage ?

Soundstage from my speakers is great. 

   I close my eyes, and can not tell where the,speakers are. Sounds like there is one 20 foot long speaker sideways in front of me.      Most descent speakers do this. 
Holographic sounds like a stereophile review word, much like “hits way above price,...yatta, yatta.

just enjoy the music. 

Keep your Krell amp and add a nice VTL tube preamp, you'll have all the holographic sound one could ask for.

sgreg1143 posts05-03-2021 7:52amRifraf4u
What i hear is no imagination and simple to figure out. Wifi can only transfer so much data and as it travels through walls ceilings floors and electrical fields that data is compromised. Hard wire does not have thst issue so when the data reaches the dac there is more clean data (sound) coming through.

This is truly comical.....

Did most of you see that the only thing he changed was the amp? A more powerful tube amp will help to control the drivers better, thus better sound. I'm not saying he needs the power for volume, but control. Play with the Raven up until the return date. Put as many hours on the amp as you can, playing music, not idling.

So I was experiencing similar with my Spatial M3 Sapphires a speaker that is known for its holographic soundstage. Initially driving it with SS and while it sounded amazing I felt it was not really wowing me. I never owned a tube amp. I was looking at the Raven but felt that while the reviews and opinions were good I wasn’t crazy about the return 7% return policy. (Which I understand). I found a local audio shop that carries Octave amps and demoed the V40SE.  That was a huge part of revealing the holographic characteristic of the M3’s. The tube amp really brings out the midrange and that was where the holography “lives” IMO and tube amps excel at this. The Raven may need some time as others have said. 

So....We are talking about swapping in a low powered tube amp for 150w krell.

The fact that any tube amp is delivering inferior bass compared to a Krell is not surprising.  No amount of burn in or time is going to fix that.  Krell is known for delivering elite, refined bass.  

Secondarily, I am not seeing measurement but with a 6 ohm nominal impedance, I wonder if it is well suited to being driven by a tube amp of any sort.  I am not finding good measurements anywhere but I wonder what the minimum impedance.

If a tube amp is struggling with driving a speaker, it is not going to sound good.  Imaging will stink.  Bass will be flabby and the overall experience will be more than underwhelming.  

I had a dreadful demo of a PrimaLuna Integrated and B&W 805 D3s.  They are a bad match.  The B&Ws simply are too difficult for the PrimaLuna to drive well.  I have heard those speakers sound great with a Naim amp.  I have heard that amp sound insanely good with Sccansonic speakers.  

The point here is, the Raven is an awesome amp and will deliver transcendant sound with something like Zu. It would never be my first choice to drive something like Wharfedale.  

@winstonwas1  The 845 Art Audio SET is the Carissa.  The Diavolo is a 300B.  Either are insanely good with horns.  I am an Avantgarde dealer because of Art Audio.  

In my experience the room’s acoustics is perhaps the most important factor in soundstage imaging. Side wall reflections can muddy an image as can sound waves coming from the rear wall and front corners.. Before I chased different equipment I’d tame the beast that your system lives in

exactly right...

Save the early and late reflections must be tamed not necessarily erased,but advanced or absorbed or retarded , they must be synchronized, then absorbing methods are relative to each situation and need to be experienced.... In my case i control all acoustic factors with also a controls of reflections from side and back.....We play with milliseconds factors here detectable by the listenings experiments...

Back reflections will play a positive role in listener envelopment factor this is demonstrated... All is a quesion of balance and timing thresholds....

Acoustic is not most think it is like buying costly materials and think they are done because the sound is good....

If you have not a room 3-d filled with sound NOT coming from spealers but an holographic volume encompassing and even including you in many recordings, you are not done.... And at the end instrument and voices timbre must sound natural ....

In my experience the room's acoustics is perhaps the most important factor in soundstage imaging.  Side wall reflections can muddy an image as can sound waves coming from the rear wall and front corners.. Before I chased different equipment I'd tame the beast that your system lives in

OP is drown in info....and hasn't posted in awhile, either......*L*

@grk7007 -- sure ok... whatever you say... 🙄 -- tis a modern miracle that people can type but they can’t read...

anyhow... op has plenty of ’advice’ now... good luck to him in his pursuit

Best 3d sound i heard was after hours at a Chicago emporium that had a Art Audio 845 SET. Integrated (Diablo)? driving a single horn Zingalli loudpeaker playing Duke Ellington on vinyl through a Px Art Audio phonostage, SPOOKY REAL!
I felt as if id gone back in time and was looking down from a balcony upon the performers.

I just relate this 2002 experiance as testimony to the importance of proper speaker and amplifier pairings for desired effects or results.
In class A its also important to have a stable 8 ohm impedance to get the best results even with solid state class A.
Ita all about removing the noisefloor.

I hope im not distracting from origionl post as my experiance or testimony as it relates to his desires is my best way imo to be of help.

We have diverged far off the OP Q.
What makes 3D? 
If a  speaker has no potential for fidelity soundstage, it makes no difference what amp/source you use.
If its not there, it aint there.
Rake a  Jadis JA800, hook it up to B7W,, The Jadis will sound like a  B&W sound, which i can't stand. 
I'm searching for fidelity right now.
I am re-inventing the Seas Thors.
The seas FA22RCZ arrives late sunday.

Which will go between the dual W18's. 
The Millennium tweeter is history. 
This  tweeter has fidelity, but the sound stage on complex music is too small, = not 3D.
3D = hight, depth, width. With human vocals perfection. 

Keep in mind I have Mirage OM 6 speakers
Transparent Super Bi Cables
Plinius SA 102 in mono bloc at 740 watts
Pure class A or ab switch

In class A mode after about 45 minutes to warm up i notice a blacker background with a very realistic stage.
Plenty of clear space between musicians with a spooky in the room presence. Not the greatest depth although you get a sense of it but absolutly first rate instrumental tones along with detailed vocals, parting of lips, the foot pedals in pianos, even the room accoustics in recordings, wood floors, high ceilings or cathedrals , a very realistic recreation of the event.

At 740 watts into an 8ohm load the dynamics can startle you. Even so I have 2 Bag End subs in stereo rated at 8htz that add a spatial ambience as well as extend or augment my mains to provide detailed bass response and staggering dynamics!

Love my Plinius gear as i have them in my hometheatre with other fine gear
2 Plinius SA 102s
Plinius SA 100mk3
Plinius M8 preamp
Plinius p 8

I also got a pair of Klipsch Cornwallmk3s 103 db sensitivity
Powered by 
Dared VP 845 with 1942 nos RCA 845 tubes
18 watts pure class A
The tubes cost more than the amp
1958 nos RCA 12ax7 and 1954 RCA 6sn7
Also a
Cary cad 300sei F1 version with
Latest pair of Western Electrics 300b tube
1944 Sylvania chrome dome 6sn7
My Lampizator lite 7 dac
Possibly upgrading to big 7 mk2
Innuos Zenith mk3 server
With Revelation audio labs cryo silver cat 8 rj45 i2s etherner 2 runs for Innuos
Transparent Reference XL rca interconects out from Lampi
Wireworlds Silver starlite usb
And also a VPI  White Prime superscout turntable
Transparent Reference phono cable etc..
In a very 3d stereo reproduction to use in my home as a reference to my posting above.

Sssooooooo!!!

#jss49

We are talking a 6 ohm 91 sensitivity easy load.  And we are talking 30 watts (the amp actually measures out at about 34 watts) with independent high voltage power supplies for each channel for the Valhalla.  A friend was running Opus 3's with an LTA reference 40 amp and had a ton of headroom.  The OP is looking for soundstage, not looking to match wattage of his Krell.  The Krell has at least 3 or 4 times the wattage he needs.  And that's SS watts.  No comparison to tube watts.   He asked for a suggestion and I gave him an opinion after having knowledge of hearing Opus 3's with tubes.  Have you?

The level of holographic sound, etc. is dependent on system voicing, i.e. everything in your system including the room. That stated some are more naturally holographic.

Two of my three systems are:

1. A 105dB sensitivity system--holographic
2. A 89dB sensitivity system--non-holographic

1. The valve/tube amps in the first system are extremely holographic to the point, where a non-audiophile musician noticed it. She remarked without prompting by me and in her own words, "Wow, incredible big sound, but not loud and just BIG. Do you have speakers behind the walls? The music from the orchestra sounds like it is coming from several feet on the other side of the walls." I switched the system to solid state amps and she stated that it was good and more "punchier," but not as 3D and lacked "crisp natural sounding cymbals."

2. Switching to the second system (ESLs with high power), she said, "This is good, but . . . well, fatiguing and more in your face. The singer sounds like her head is 6 feet tall with a 3 foot mouth. I would get tired of this after a while, but is a good/different sound." Me, "More intimate?" Her, "Yes. More intimate."

Both auditions were from the same roon labs qobuz 192x24 source using the same OEM model DACs.

I noticed that your Wharfedales (I am a fan of them, because like me they are from the UK) are very insensitive--think large earth-based telescope. High sensitivity is like the Hubble telescope devoid of atmospheric interference. Why? One hears a lot of details (some unwanted like noisy amps, and yes most are "A" rated by Stereophile) and content simply not reproduced on lower sensitivity regardless of SPL or amplification, DACs, phono, etc. Think of insensitive speakers of having an atmosphere or lens in the way.

I am a fan and own both systems, and that is why there is no perfect system for many reasons. That’s what makes the hobby fun.

I listen to the ESLs system 20 times more often, than the big sounding 105db sensitivity system. Why? I can abuse the ESLs system and don’t care or give a damn. There are way too many sand (silicon) based amps out there for sale and speakers that love them. So, it is easy to price and replace. The system is on 24x7 and gets plenty of abuse. Robust it is.

OTOH the "tube" base system requires more TLC, warmup, and voicing with the right amps is a b*tch to get right. Most amps are noisy, e.g. I have a pair of Canary M-80s that "hum" (no, it’s not a ground loop, etc. it is the amp) with tube rush that sounds like a babbling brook. Nothing wrong with the install or system. That’s the pitfall of a sensitivity system. Very few amps sound quiet and good. The quiet amps are choked to death with negative feedback, unity, or push/pull designs. After 40 years with this system I’ve tried/bought/borrowed/auditioned just about everything.

Bottom-line:
System#1 is extremely holographic, but extremely finicky and sometimes fragile . . . like a centuries old Scotch . . . use sparingly.
System#2 is not holographic and not fragile. Devil-may-care attitude applies.

And yes, everyone should have more than one system at both ends of sensitivity. Listening to the same source on two extremely different systems is like doubling one’s music collection. :)

Remember that there is no single "god" system. Voicing and a room smaller than 40ft x 40ft x 40ft impacts the sound, because the SWR goes up in small/tiny rooms (anything lower than 40ft ceiling). Yes, one can "fool" ears with room treatments into thinking that the SWR is low, but it isn’t. The standing waves are still there.

Best rooms out there?

• Wiener Staatsoper
• Pacific Pantages (when it was a theatre) - middle front row balcony seat

What do they have in common? SIZE and high ceilings. And yes, they are holographic by design. Ever wonder why cathedrals and opera houses have high ceilings? The space contributes to the sound. Composers and people already knew this in the 17th century. Raw room size does matter. If he were alive, J.S. Bach would agree.

Have fun.

Cheers,
g

I also think the speakers are the best thing to change for a more holographic sound. I like Fyne so F501SP would for me be something to check out but there sre many good speakers. 

God, I really don’t want to get into another Raven thread but I have to share an experience...

When I had him on the phone right before I purchased their amplifier, I told James that the number one thing I’m looking for in their amplifier is a holographic image.
He told me I was the first person to ever say they wanted that when they were about to buy one of their amplifiers.

At that moment, a red flag had gone off in my head.

@gkr7007

have you read this thread?

with all due respect to don, i don’t think you are doing him any favors suggesting his valhalla to drive these dual 10 in woofers in the op’s wharfedales to replace a 150/300 wpc krell ksa150

i would say it is 50-50 proposition at very best that his 30 wpc unit will handle them properly...

"If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now."

Don Sachs has introduced his Valhalla  integrated recently and it is a giant killer.  It can use a variety of power tubes and its signal tubes are those luscious 6sn7's. Huge soundstage and imaging.  And at around $4500 is a bargain to boot.  

Why don't you just put a good 6sn7 tube preamp in front of the krell amp. I couldn't stand my krell ksa 300s amp with solid state preamps, I got an octal tube preamp and it is so much better. 

As far as great holographic speakers, I have apogee duetta 2's that are very holographic, but not quite as holographic as my polk sda speakers. The apogees do have better detail and tone than the polks.

Well since all you changed was the amp, either be patient or go back to the Krell. Remember you're comparing 150 watts to a 20 watts! Your speakers are not efficient enough for that amp in my opinion. You will need to make several changes if you want to switch to a low powered tube amp, my recommendation is a more powerful tube amp. If not, you will need to make a lot of changes including new speakers. Basically, you will be starting from the beginning of your audio journey. 

I am familiar with Krell KSA 150. I know what you mean by  " Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven." I use Krell KST 100 so that I don't have to put up with heat from KSA 150 due to class A bias. KST 100 also gives a 3D imaging, may not be as good as KSA 150.
I want to know what kind of software you use. For example, I use "The Ultimate Demonstration Disc," from Chesky Records to compare speakers, amps, etc., including one track for holographic imaging. I also have a number classical and jazz CDs/LPs that gives holographic imaging. However, it is highly dependent on the recording. If it is not in the recording, then audio chain cannot reproduce such imaging. I am curious what CDs/LPs you use for testing holographic imaging.

speaking of holographic speakers.......my new Macbook's speakers are amazing......way beyond the desk that it sits on.   The effect is quite stunning......no.....no lows/highs/....but there is a wow factor.

I upgraded a 70 watt Conrad Johnson Premier 11a to a 500 watt Sanders Magtech amp. Sound stage grew by leaps and bounds! And as you mentioned with your Krell amp, bass is much better with SS. I still use Tubes in preamp (Hovland) and DAC (Lampizator) for added liquidity and musicality. Happy as a clam. 

Is your hearing holographic?  When your sound system can reproduce a single unamplified instrument so that you can't tell without opening your eyes whether you are sitting in an audition space listening to the instrument or in your listening room listening to speakers, you are there. 

I've experienced that rarely - once with Quad ESL 57s using Quad low output amplification.  I agree with the guys that have said it isn't the amplification train as much as it is the speakers.

The sound you're looking for is the synergy between your amp, your speakers, and your room acoustics.  You cannot just expect to pull out the ksa-150, and pop in the tube amp, and get that magic.  In fact, just swapping out the amp with another may require you move the speakers to readjust for the new soundstage.  You may want to ask the tube amp vendor the type of speakers that work well with that tube amp.  What speakers were they using to voice the amp during design?  Is there a list of speakers that they have tested well with that amp configuration?  Get that information to help you decide.  If you want to warm tube sound and retain the solid bass, bi-amp the speakers (not sure if that model of Wharfdale is capable.)  Drive the top with tubes, and keep the LF on solid state.  Adjust the speaker placement.  Maybe try out different speakers if possible.  Good luck.

Prior to my tube amp set up I had a couple of well reviewed Krell integrated amps. My own experience was that my Rogue tube amps killed the Krell for (hologrpahic) soundtstage. Made the Krells sound dry and lifeless.Never looked back. Obviously the (tube) amp and speaker need to be well matched, maybe yours aren't, I do not know. Good luck.

@viethluu  @jjss49  is correct, it appears that the KEF loudspeakers are not a good load for this particular tube amp. If you look at the speaker you see that has a dual woofer array- so its nominally a 4 ohm load in the bass.

For this reason you should be using the 4 ohm taps IMO/IME. But its a simple fact that speakers designed this way are not intended for tube amps, which don't do well on 4 ohm loads. This is because the output transformer is less efficient on 4 ohm loads and not only will run hotter (absorbing amplifier power) but it may well lose as much as an octave of bandwidth on the bottom end!


If you really want to hear what tubes are about (and to also get lower distortion out of your Krells, which won't hurt) you would need to have a speaker that is at least 8 ohms in the bass to make a more valid comparison.


Put another way I suspect that because of the load of your speakers you are for more likely to get good results from solid state than tubes, but even solid state suffers because while it can drive the load easily enough, to do so it makes more distortion, which obscures detail (including soundstage information).

the blackhawk amp is not driving the speakers properly

reading a single numerical impedance rating from a speaker maker is a fool’s game, as impedance varies by frequency (see any impedance plot vs frequency measured in a proper review), and an average impedance is pretty much meaningless, especially if you are using a low powered amp

clearly based on the driver set (2x 10 in) of the op’s speakers, the impedance is dipping low, probably well below 4 ohms, in the bass, due to the dual woofer configuration - this speaker needs current drive in the bass

the 20wpc tube amp, 2 6l6 power tubes per side, doesn’t stand a chance

Caveat:
The Seas midtweets are acceptable for light jazz, \
Not for complex jazz ensembles nor full orchestra. 

Seas Excel dome tweets The Millennium and their new flagship Cresendo are rated 87db, Thats 5db too low. I'm sure the new Cresendo beats out the Millennium, but not enough to give a  cigar.
For voicing mids/highs witth a  ~~3 dimensional soundstage~~, only a  high sens FR  are designed for this task. 
I know Troels is suck on using midranges, 3 wyas, etc, but note his xovers....Massive and very complex = drivers are faulty.
A high quality FR  does not suffer these liabilities needed complex xovers.
We  must appreciate Troels excelent work supporting xover designs. But sad to say these things are dated.
The Seas Thor bass xover is simple
1 resistor, 1 cap, 1 coil.  Exception to the rule. 
You do not wanta  woofer witha  92db sensitivity, it would be too over whelming in the fabric of the soundstage. 
I am about to take  a  chance on swapping oit the lower W18E001 fora  W22 Graphene. Its a $900 gamble, bass might be too heavy in the overall soundstage. 
We are looking for a balance.
Yes I am aware my New Thor design witha  FA22RCZ at 94db + dual W18E001 @ 87db, might seem out of sync.
But remember its DUAL W18E001. Thats alot of bass for 1  channel.
The FA22RCZ's arrive tomorrow, I have a   test cabinet .
The 2 chinese FR a 4 and 5 inch arrive next week. 

millercarbon9,062 posts04-30-2021 12:47pmYour speakers at 91dB are not awful but are below my (admittedly totally arbitrary) cutoff of 92dB that anyone should consider before buying any speaker


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As you know i’ve also made this very same opinion all over audiogon these past weeks.
Sensitivity is everything ina speaker’s performance.
However, there are ~~The Exception To This Golden Rule~~

Seas has their Excel woofer line, rated 85-88 db sens.
Yes this  goes against my cutoff db sens at 92/93  as acceptable.
Due to the voicing in the lower midrange.
any woofer can make solid bass.
But very few can voice pure lower mids, in conjuction with solid low bass. .
Seas accomplishes this rare blend in their unique Excel line of woofers.
Now even Scanspeak has a woofer than can match.
Now as for upper mids/highs, here i am with you, 92db is the line in the sand for voicing this crucial fq range.

I always found imaging was more a function of the speakers


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Supporting my thesis ~~The Speaker is the most critical component~~~
I just removed the fluffy white insulation that came with the Thor MTM kit, which Ricahrd Gray made the soldering connections back in 2004. It was packed TIGHt in the transmission cjambers throughout, Richard was only following the kit instructions. 
Huge error on Seas's kit instructions. 
The only insulation needed was a  1 inch thick 12 inch x 12 inch placed behind each W18. 
The bass now has exploded throughout the transmission  design. The speaker now exhibits more
~~3 dimension soundstage~~~
Proof speakers are everything in a  system. 
well thats a light exaggeration. 
Lets say 70%
The other 30% getting split up twix the amp, source, caps,  cables. 
Speakers are the main component,,all else are tweaks, nuances, support ,or worse = adding  distortion.

i get generally good results using a pair of compact Mirage Omnis with their output bouncing off the ceiling near the rear-side of the listening room, driven by a 50 watt stereo integrated amp with the bass and treble turned down, this is essential for not messing with the front channel [Thiel cs.5] speakers' timbre and imaging. i use a Akai universal surround box with decorrelated surround signal to process the rear-channel signal. it really shines on pop recordings with a dense difference signal, such as "Oxygene," or the works of Isao Tomita; and classical recordings made in big spaces. it is an amazing thing that 4 speakers placed optimally in my room can do this soundaround "disappearing act." it is just sound, i close my eyes and can't tell where the sound is coming from as discrete speaker-sources. 

@mahgister,


I know you like to tinker and I see a computer on that desk that perhaps can generate some delayed signals. You may enjoy this experiment from Linkwitz:


https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Watson/watson.htm


He has a fair number of good easy to understand articles on how we perceive location as well.

Thanks for this interesting link....

I said after learning about crosstalk in 2 channel playback that you may want to pull out those headphones. You have not done the first step yet, and already making conclusions about the second step.


https://smyth-research.com/ https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1959366850/realiser-a16-real-3d-audio-headphone-processor


I will leave the research on the rest up to you.

I already know about this technology only 6,000 canadian dollars... 😊

Even if it could be  better than what i have, like having a real very good 5 channel erasing completely the speakers in a virtual space, it is too much money for me...

And i am proud of my " mechanical equalizer" result at peanuts cost...

But think about that , i listen to orchestral or piano classical and the instruments are already in my room....

Thanks to psychoacoustic...

Then..... I never doubt that exist better gear than mine.... Or better way to use headphones like the Smyth realizer...

But with basic acoustic i smile listening any system at any price on youtube....Some are better than mine but not with an ocean between me and them...

The most important factor is not quality, it is the ratio Quality/price....

i dont want the best because i cannot afford it...

I want the best ratio quality/price and i have it already at 500 bucks...


This is why i was interested by psychoacoustic..... I develop my idea discussing with you when you argued about imaging, not realizing that acoustic is even more important than speakers specs...it was my impression then.... I dont know you then perhaps i am wrong...

i decided to use Helmholtz ideas with the 3 japan researchers experiments results with timing thresholds i read at this time...

i succeed...

My headphones (without the 6000 bucks Smyth realizer for sure) will stay in my drawer....


Anyway thank you for your kind answer and theinteresting promising  link....

My best to you....

You may even be inclined at that point to pull out your headphones.

I perhaps overestimated your knowledge a bit here...

Your last sentence is all i must know...

I dont doubt the superior possibilities of electronic tech in headphone....But it was not my point....

My point was a comparison between my Helmholtz grid against a processor in room acoustic control....

It is impossible for me to go back to any of my headphone now.... They are not on par with my room control...

It is easy to verify connecting any one of them:

3 dynamics, 2 Stax, one hybrid, 1 magneplanar..

They are all different, but not on par with my 2 positions of listening in my room...They have all of them their own good and bad points but they all lack natural timbre experience and livelier sound compared to my room.... ALL.... And any  characterics they had more than my room before my acoustic control i had it now with my acoustic control in my room in a more natural way....


The fact that you say the opposite to me, and ask me to go back to headphones, reveal that you dont own a good room, or perhaps you own the best headphone there is and the costlier....

I will stay "ignorant" it seems... With my ears open tough....

I suggest learning about what the cross-talk issue is w.r.t. 2 channel audio and locating sounds and then you will understand why room acoustics cannot solve this.

If the recording engineer recorded the sounds of a cd or a files in some way with ANY three dimensional effects and directions, i listen  already to them in my room.... then  i dont look about locating sound better than i did alreadsy with my room controls.... Why doubting my results?

I think it is you who have no idea how i used my distribution of resonators in relation with my EARS and EACH speaker in an asymmetric way in my room ....




I know you know more than me in audio...

But knowing more is not knowing BETTER in all cases...

Meditate this....

I will read about what you just suggest anyway....

Thanks for your answer....

Because you don’t have it. You may think you do, but you do not. No matter what you do with acoustics, you cannot do what is required to accomplish this. Time to learn more about this before typing. You will save a lot of typing.

I know that you are more knowledgeable than me and most in audio by a more than a small margin...

I hope that in spite of our different perspectives you smell the difference between me and some others....

BUT instead of explaining why i am supposed to be deluded you dismiss my experience...It is not enough....Sorry....We do not discuss "directed wiring" here... But the relation of acoustic with improvement of perception and the use of mechanical distributed Helmholtz resonators versus electronical means...I dont pretend that my solution is perfect it is not... But efficient at no cost it is....




I just listened the same files someone here proposed like a test and i lived the same perceptive experience or something near it because i am not frustrated about what he described and what i experience...

my remarks are only linked to a question: what acoustic control can do on par or better than Carver c9 ? it is a question but i had the impression that i lack nothing about all acoustical factors which other described.... I even prefer my grid to the synergetic research processor i listened to on many video on youtube....Anyway my ratio S.Q. /price is very high compared to them .... 😁

Explain to me why not? instead of dismissing without justification....

By the way my grid of Helmholtz resonators are not distributed randomly and i used the tweeter wavefront of one speaker and the bass driver of the other speaker to help my ears recreate the sense of space.... And contrary to a crosstalk control device i can work with "timbre perception" .... In my acoustic experience all factors like imaging, soundstage, LEV, are all linked in a kind of acoustical trade-off which i control with fine tuning mechanically the volume/neck ratio, the length.... It is not perfect but spectacular and sound natural to me....

@sgreg1 that is not how it works.

Also It’s not unusual for tube amps with higher output impedance ( than SS in general and Krell) to have relatively less articulate bass and inferior dynamics as it interacts with the speaker load at various frequencies. Distortion is likely much higher in that case than with a comparable SS amp of lower output impedance overall. This is why impedance matching matters.

Why not trying to recreate this "headphone effect" about imaging and listener envelopment (LEV) instead of using electronical cross talk control with a mechanichal acoustic control?

It is possible if i have it....

For sure 32 helmholtz pipes and tubes in a living room and some devices near the tweeter of one speaker and the bass driver of the other one are not esthetical either....

But all my 7 headphones are in the drawers definitively.... 😊

I can control "timbre perception experience" with my grid of Helmholtz devices, not only soundstage or LEV, could i with an electronical Carver c9 ? The experience of a more natural timbre perception is more important for me than anything but a system without holographic imaging filling the room is without appeal at all...Speakers must vanish in a good system....

In fact an out pof phase signals added will not make us able to control or correct the timbre experience in a specific room.... Then..... It is only an artificial device for the imaging and soundstage perception... It is not enough if your room/ speakers are not totally already adapted  and able to give you a natural "timbre" experience already...My grid give me that.... Passive material treatment of my room was not enough...there is a relation between the acoustic factors linked to timbre and imaging and soundstage.... It is difficult to reach the right timing of the wavefronts to the ears....But with my grid the "tiniest" tuning is possible...

This is a low price device the carver c9 indeed, and i am curious to try one if i could look for one some day, but after what i experience now, it seems i dont need it at all...

@mikekollar - "Go on to ebay and spend the $150 to $200 on a vintage 1980's Carver C9 Sonic hologram generator and introduce THAT into your system. My 20k 2 channel system loves it and I consider this the most important piece on my rack."

Yep, companies have been adding an out-of-phase signal (crosstalk cancellation) for decades.  Lexicon did it in their processors, Polk did it with their SDA speakers and right now there is a VERY well liked speaker line that uses tweeter arrays in the same way - feeding some of the tweeters out-of-phase signals to achieve some great sound. So I'm not shocked your Carver C9 is your most loved piece of gear in your $20k system. Bravo for even bringing it up since you know what happens on these boards......