i get generally good results using a pair of compact Mirage Omnis with their output bouncing off the ceiling near the rear-side of the listening room, driven by a 50 watt stereo integrated amp with the bass and treble turned down, this is essential for not messing with the front channel [Thiel cs.5] speakers' timbre and imaging. i use a Akai universal surround box with decorrelated surround signal to process the rear-channel signal. it really shines on pop recordings with a dense difference signal, such as "Oxygene," or the works of Isao Tomita; and classical recordings made in big spaces. it is an amazing thing that 4 speakers placed optimally in my room can do this soundaround "disappearing act." it is just sound, i close my eyes and can't tell where the sound is coming from as discrete speaker-sources.
Holographic Soundstage ?
I would like to share my observation and hopefully get some input from people who have the same interest.
My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.
I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.
If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.
My system consist of Wharfedale Opus 3 , Krell KRC-3 preamp, Krell KSA 150 amp, Chord Qutest DAC and a computer with JCAT USB EX running Roon/with LPSU from HDPlex.
I mainly like holographic soundstage and would be able to achieve a very good 3D soundstaging with my current Krell setup.
I decided to try out tube amp a couple days ago because I read through the internet and everybody told me that tube amp always have better holographic soundstage and 3D imaging comparing to SS amp.
So I order a Raven Blackhawk MK3 from Raven audio with 45 days home trial just to try it out. I was expecting a very holographic soundstage that will blow my Krell out of the water.
Well, I was so WRONG. The Krell combo actually has a deeper and wider soundstage comparing to the Raven.
The Raven also has some very weak bass comparing to the Krell which is more punchy and tonally rich textured bass.
I cannot understand why it happens. I am always under the impression that tube amp will always provide more holographic soundstage. Obviously, In my set up the Krell is superior when it come to 3 dimensionality.
I will keeping trying out the Raven Blackhawk in the next couple of weeks and if things are not improved. I am ready to return the Raven and perhaps trying out the other tube amps (or solid state amps) that can beat the Krell combo.
If any one has some idea of such a product, please let me know. I am looking for an upgrade right now.
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- 94 posts total
I always found imaging was more a function of the speakers
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Supporting my thesis ~~The Speaker is the most critical component~~~ I just removed the fluffy white insulation that came with the Thor MTM kit, which Ricahrd Gray made the soldering connections back in 2004. It was packed TIGHt in the transmission cjambers throughout, Richard was only following the kit instructions. Huge error on Seas's kit instructions. The only insulation needed was a 1 inch thick 12 inch x 12 inch placed behind each W18. The bass now has exploded throughout the transmission design. The speaker now exhibits more ~~3 dimension soundstage~~~ Proof speakers are everything in a system. well thats a light exaggeration. Lets say 70% The other 30% getting split up twix the amp, source, caps, cables. Speakers are the main component,,all else are tweaks, nuances, support ,or worse = adding distortion. |
millercarbon9,062 posts04-30-2021 12:47pmYour speakers at 91dB are not awful but are below my (admittedly totally arbitrary) cutoff of 92dB that anyone should consider before buying any speaker ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As you know i’ve also made this very same opinion all over audiogon these past weeks. Sensitivity is everything ina speaker’s performance. However, there are ~~The Exception To This Golden Rule~~ Seas has their Excel woofer line, rated 85-88 db sens. Yes this goes against my cutoff db sens at 92/93 as acceptable. Due to the voicing in the lower midrange. any woofer can make solid bass. But very few can voice pure lower mids, in conjuction with solid low bass. . Seas accomplishes this rare blend in their unique Excel line of woofers. Now even Scanspeak has a woofer than can match. Now as for upper mids/highs, here i am with you, 92db is the line in the sand for voicing this crucial fq range. |
Seas Excel dome tweets The Millennium and their new flagship Cresendo are rated 87db, Thats 5db too low. I'm sure the new Cresendo beats out the Millennium, but not enough to give a cigar. For voicing mids/highs witth a ~~3 dimensional soundstage~~, only a high sens FR are designed for this task. I know Troels is suck on using midranges, 3 wyas, etc, but note his xovers....Massive and very complex = drivers are faulty. A high quality FR does not suffer these liabilities needed complex xovers. We must appreciate Troels excelent work supporting xover designs. But sad to say these things are dated. The Seas Thor bass xover is simple 1 resistor, 1 cap, 1 coil. Exception to the rule. You do not wanta woofer witha 92db sensitivity, it would be too over whelming in the fabric of the soundstage. I am about to take a chance on swapping oit the lower W18E001 fora W22 Graphene. Its a $900 gamble, bass might be too heavy in the overall soundstage. We are looking for a balance. Yes I am aware my New Thor design witha FA22RCZ at 94db + dual W18E001 @ 87db, might seem out of sync. But remember its DUAL W18E001. Thats alot of bass for 1 channel. The FA22RCZ's arrive tomorrow, I have a test cabinet . The 2 chinese FR a 4 and 5 inch arrive next week. |
- 94 posts total