I’m very new to analog, and researching my options on forums I keep coming across the same sentiment: that past the ultra low-end cartridges, there is very little gains in actual sound quality and that all you’re getting are different styles and colorations to the sound.
So, for example, if I swapped out my $200 cartridge that came with my table for a Soundsmith, Dynavector, Oracle, etc, I may notice a small improvement in detail and dynamics, but I’m mostly just going to get a different flavor. Multiple people told me they perffered thier old vintage cartridges over modern laser-cut boron-necked diamonds.
It’s possible that these people are just desperately defending thier old junk and/or have never heard high end audio. But if what they’re saying is true, than the cartridge industry is a giant SCAM. If I blow 2.5k minimum on an Air Tight I better get a significant improvement over a $200 bundler — and if just all amounts to a different coloration, than that is a straight-up scam ripoff.
So guys — are these forums just BS-ing me here? Is it really a giant scam?
I will give you an example and maybe this will become more clear to you.
I had a Basis 2000 turntable with a Basis branded Rega tonearm and a Shelter 901 cartridge.
I changed from the Rega (inexpensive) tonearm to a Basis Vector (expensive) tonearm and the difference was significant and noticeable particularly the imaging.
Clearly the Rega tonearm was not allowing the Shelter cartridge to perform at its best.
So an expensive cartridge may sound better than an inexpensive cartridge, even on a substandard turntable/tonearm combination, but it will not be able to perform at its best.
FWIW I think using the words SUCKER and SCAM when you write leads to nothing positive when you are asking others to help you with information or explain something to you.
OP- If you are really serious, then the answer is that in most cases, a $1K table and a $500 phono stage will not get the most out of a $2K cart. And it certainly will not be plug-n-play. Unless you have a dealer with good analog set-up skills (a rarity, these days) you will need a good protractor for alignment and a scale for setting VTF. Maybe a good microscope for getting VTA and azimuth right. Can't find a $300/$500 battery phono stage on MD's web site, so no idea if it has variable loading or whether the gain would be adequate for a LO MC cart. If you are going MM or MI, $2K is very near top of line. Of course, the show demo you heard may (or may not) have benefited from very careful system matching and expert set-up. As someone said, LP playback requires a properly matched "system" where each piece needs to be selected with consideration for upstream and downstream components.
Properly matched does not mean matched to equally expensive gear, but to technically compatible gear. You have to look for compliance, mass, impedance, gain... that’s all.
Provided that the well regarded $2-3k cart is a good match (technically speaking, not financially) to the rest of your analog rig, you will definitely hear a lot of improvement. If it´s not, it may not sound any better than what you currently have.
19lbs or 23 lbs for a tt is nothing. Mine weighs 150 lbs and I’ve seen and heard a few that are much heavier. i wouldn’t put a lot of your stress on weight of a tt, it’s the whole package. I have friends that put $3-5k cartridges on tonearms and it just doesn’t work out. If you go out to vinyl asylum and check out the analog database on tonearm and cartridge specs, you will see which cartridges will match up with which tonearms. I know that soundsmith does a lot of their testing with vpi gear for example, but that doesn’t mean that their $8k cartridge will work fine with the vpi gimbal arm either. 1 more thing, years ago I used a grado sonata cartridge on a music hall mmf7 I think tt and I couldn’t get rid of the hum. Went to another tt and the hum went away
Madavid: Why is this discussion that you promote so focused on the dollar amounts of things? A system is a combination of many independent variables; the number of possible systems and component combinations and room set ups and human ears is an astronomically large number. It’s the "no matter what I do" sentiment you express that is problematic. And you certainly don’t need $200K of equipment to have lasting enjoyment from a well designed system.
Your $1K turntable might, or might not, benefit from a $2K cartridge, depending on several factors and independent variables. The point is to try and make educated decisions, listen to a variety of table-arm-cartridge combinations (not always easy to do), read reviews both from owners and the pros. I don't know why you chose the MoFI rig. I conclude it must have been what you wanted at that moment, in that place.
What exactly are you trying to achieve in the analog realm? I’m not sure you have been able to determine that yet.
I run a preowned Technics SL1200mkll that I paid $300 for and that I restored with a NOS arm and new lights outfitted with a vintage Shure V15 type IV that I paid $200 for with an after market replacement microridge stylus through tube pre and power amps into full range speakers. I have a few other new and vintage cartridges, none that I paid more than $600 for, and they sound very satisfying to my ears. It’s not always about how much one has to spend to achieve high performance, but sometimes it is, and sometimes one can assemble a reasonably priced system that reveals all the detail one could ever want and kick butt at the same time. To me, it’s a journey, not a destination. There are no absolutes. This interest in music reproduction is not a scam. The manufacturers I own components from, I believe, truly care about the quality of the components they make and have a passion for the science and art of good design and execution because they truly like music and the means to play recorded music. Sure they want to make a profit; sure I want them to be profitable so that they perpetuate the industry we all support. Some even aim to make these devices at price points that are affordable and are of high quality. These particular facets of value and performance for a given price point are not a scam in any way, shape or form.
Megabuck tables, arms and cartridges can and do sound absolutely amazing, they're just not for me. I applaud those who can afford and enjoy such rigs. Michael Fremer is one. I learn from him and feel he is an asset to analog fans.
I know nothing about MoFi tables and cartridges, but assume the rigs you bought must have sounded good enough to your ears to be what you wanted. I wouldn’t pursue a $2K cartridge, it’s not my thing. If I were you I would stop obsessing about that $2K cartridge and explore the fun and fascinating world of sub $1K carts, both vintage and new.
It’s hard for me to take a recommendation seriously when they come from people who restore dumpster-rescue vintage turntables — it sounds like to me that they’re just protecting their emotional investment in ultra low-end sound.
However, I’ll admit that is just a bias on my part that may not have any value when talking about turntables and cartridges.
Is the contention that all the modern engineering techniques and materials have little or no value to turntable / cartridge performance so therefore vintage equipment can still match up to modern gear?
Next time you find an SP10 Mk3 in a dumpster, call me immediately and I will have it removed to a safe place in my house, at no cost to anyone.
No, it is not anyone's contention that "all modern engineering techniques and materials have little to no value to turntable/cartridge performance". But SOME vintage equipment certainly CAN match up to and exceed that of SOME modern gear. Seems to me that you are the one who is brim full of assumptions.
"It’s hard for me to take a recommendation seriously when they come from people who restore dumpster-rescue vintage turntables — it sounds like to me that they’re just protecting their emotional investment in ultra low-end sound."
I'm really not sure what the relevance of your statement is, as it has no bearing on the topic at hand. I restore, modify and hot rod older tables, or any table for that matter. My favorite to work on is a Thorens TD 150. There is just so much greatness that can come out of this table. I have also worked on VPI, AR, Pioneer and many others. It has given me many hours of joy and understanding of what qualities makes a table work well. And, in reality, there is not much difference in tables built 10-20-30 or 40 years ago to tables built today. I also have, and have had, many newer tables in and out of my home. I usually run two tables.
Further, I have also advocated that more money wisely spent can also lead to better sound. So what is your point regarding your above statement anyway?
You have manufacturers such as Benz Micro, Soundsmith, Koetsu, Clearaudio, Rega, Dynavector, etc, who make mid-to-high level cartridges ranging from $2K to as much as $15K (or more?). The sentiment I often come across online is that there is little or no difference between these products and vintage cartridges.
Is that REALLY the case? If so, than what these manufacturers are engaged in is a scam, and those people online seem to know this through experience and I would do myself a huge disservice to dismiss them out of hand. Maybe I SHOULD send back my MoFi, find a Thorens, Garrard, Denon, etc, on eBay for next to nothing and have it restored for a few hundred. What do you guys think? Should I avoid the scam?
If it isn't really the case, then it's just some people who have attached their ego to the gear that is attainable to them and so defend it out of emotional need and not because of the sound they produce. What do you guys think -- is "you get what you pay for" still in effect here?
Dear friends: I don't know you but for me is very dififult to have a good dialogue/discussion with people that really can't " read " what they read. I can read something and just not understand it because I have a " slow brain " or in other words because I'm stupid.
I posted several times in other analog roockie threads where they have not any idea of analog but understand what experienced people posted and his questions and answers they gives are inteligent questions/answers, they have common sense.
Unfortunatelly this is not the case with this analog roockie that every single post repeat and repeat the " same " with out understand what other people said.
He posted question after question with the same wrong topic and when some one ask him something he just does not answered, dead silence almost as his brain.
He gave no answer to this posted question:
""" I think that before you ask what you posted there you have to ask your self: how good is the quality sound you are listening at your analog home system. Are you impressed? ""
That dead silence tell me not only his ignorance levels but his stupidity level.
My question to all of you: can you have a " decent " dialogue with a stupid person? with some one that maybe can't even remember his name?
Maybe I'm to stupid trying to do it.
Forums everywhere is a free place to make some kind of audio contribution that can help audiophiles and music lovers. Which is his real contribution here for any one ?
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
Btw, @inna : """
For as long as we are talking analog not digital, it is fine ""
Things are that today with out help of digital technologies you can't improve your analog experiences.
@madavid0 life must be very difficult for you given your propensity to find charlatans and crooks under every stone. You started this thread in the belief that cartridge manufacturers are out to rip you off but that your new MF table is the ne plus ultra of great value for money. Alas, you now are worried MF have scammed you too and that you should have stuck with an old Thorens and not wasted all that money on a new deck. Maybe you'd be better off not buying anything that way you'd never have any risk of feeling ripped off? You could then post online about how clever you were not to be scammed ... remember you cannot take it with you when you die, spend it if you have it and it makes you feel good!
@rauliruegas Being honest, your input has had zero value, not only to me but to anyone. "Are you happy with your sound" is a meaningless question; what difference at all does it make if I'm happy or not happy with it? If I'm happy with my sound, does that mean my audiophile journey is complete -- is this the "right" mindset? What if I'm NOT happy, may I continue to pursue better sound in that case?
Wether or not I'm happy with my sound has nothing to do with achieving better sound. Isn't there room to be happier? Why do I even need to explain this?
Will more expensive cartridges lead to better sound? That is a question that has value not only to me, but to anyone else curious about this topic. It's mind-blowing how far some people will twist themselves into knots in order NOT to answer the question.
It's getting snowing in here. The question reminds me the way of thinking of some new russians who're making their decision by the price. The higher the price for each component in high-end audio the better the quality (in their opinion). The only problem is that those guys never tried to find a decent components for reasonable price, they do not have time for it (maybe) and they can afford whatever price which is good for the dealers. If the higher price in audio makes someone happier than it's not always about quality. This is marketing first, it's like business class tickets. True audiophiles normally upgrade their system step by step and it takes time to compare one thing to another (it's all about experience). If you don't know what you're buying and why the price is very high then it's just stupid, maybe Raul is right.
Unfortunately the OP just cannot seem to comprehend that it is not directly related to cost/value of components. Sometimes it is and a collection of high $ items WILL result in stupendous SQ. More often not it is a matter of system synergy which does not always follow any known cost form factor. I have made many costly "upgrades" only to go backwards in SQ. Did I scream scam at the top of my lungs? No I regrouped and reevaluated my choices and went in a different direction. Trial and error and much good advice on these forums have helped me achieve a semblance of sonic nirvana. But I am content? Heck no, that is not the way of the audiophile....lol.
Even though English is not my mother tongue, I do believe my couple previous posts were quite easily understandable. I'm with Raul on this: you're either unable or not willing to understand what people are telling you. I will completely disregard cart/tonearm/phono synergy and compatibility issues and give you the most honest answer that I can, having myself bought and/or experienced a variety of cartridges ranging from U$200,00 to U$10,000: YES, IT MAKES A LOT OF DIFFERENCE and the upgrades are not subtle, but rather like "I CANNOT live without this improvement". I wanted to believe that there's no difference between a thousand dollars cartridge and a four thousand dollars cartridge, but I know for a fact that the improvement is quite shocking and I learned that when I upgraded from a Dynavector Karat D3 to a Transfiguration Phoenix S. So much so that I couldn't stop there. It is not a scam and that setup you heard would have performed A LOT better with an analog front-end costing as much as the TAD speakers.
OP - your aggressive and absolute manner will not get you far on here. People have answered you: there is no definite answer. Much depends on compatibility of components, cables and room, not to mention tastes, expectations, budget...
That’s your answer. I hope you can hold that in your mind. It seems, though, that you need a simple answer, not a complex analysis. Which you will not find on this topic.. though I have a feeling you don’t really want an answer, you already have formed an opinion and feel the need to press it upon us with these threads.
(In case anyone has forgotten the topic, it was: does a more expensive cart sound better than a less expensive cart?)
(All carts set up on my table with MINT LP BEST PROTRACTOR and a digital VTF scale accurate to 3 significant figures.)
I have an Ortofon Black ~$600 and a $200 Nagaoka 150. Both are great sounding cartridges, I prefer the Nagoaka.
I have a vintage Shure V15-IV I $300 and the $200 Nagaoka. Both are great and I prefer the Shure.
I have in storage for a couple of years now a VPI Aries Black Knight/JMW 10.5 arm and a couple of Lyra Delos carts. I don’t recall what I paid for all of them new about ten years ago but let’s say ~$6500.
Does that rig sound good? Heck yeah.
Am I happier and have more fun with my dumpster dive Technics table and old fart Shures, Nagaokas, Grados, Ortofons, Stantons, Pickerings and ATs, some new, some vintage? Heck yeah.
It’s not always about $$$ and it’s NOT A SCAM!
I said I wouldn’t get sucked into this but I fell for it nonetheless.
I will completely disregard cart/tonearm/phono synergy and compatibility issues and give you the most honest answer that I can, having myself bought and/or experienced a variety of cartridges ranging from U$200,00 to U$10,000: YES, IT MAKES A LOT OF DIFFERENCE and the upgrades are not subtle, but rather like "I CANNOT live without this improvement". I wanted to believe that there’s no difference between a thousand dollars cartridge and a four thousand dollars cartridge
I do not agree with this rule at all. Tried a few respected (brand new) $3000-5000 MC cartridges on high value various tonearms and returned to the rare vintage MM cartridges with ease. First any MM cartridge is always much cheaper than MC, but the quality and sound is not "cheaper". This is not universal rule, but carefully selected top vintage MM cartridges ara amazing and still 5-10 times cheaper. Apart from the vintage cartridges the only vintage things in my analog rig are the nos tubes, direct-drive turntables and toneamrs. I will never spend $3000 on any cartridge again and it does not make big difference to me like it makes to you. However, the cartridge is the most important component in my opinion and it’s worth to try many of them to find the one which gives us tonal satisfaction, but it is not about the price as you described it (it's about the search). $10000 for a cartridge is a nonsense, let’s face it (and don’t tell your wife). Anyone is able to build the decent sound system without spending $10000 on a cartridge. Don’t forget the used market offers, $1500 for MC and under $700 for great and very rare MM and that’s amazing deals for superb cartridges.
Madavid is now living under an assumed name in Uruguay or Moldavia.
My feelings as regards the last few posts between Luiz and Chakster is that both are correct. Based on my admittedly limited experience there IS a big difference between "low cost" LOMCs and very expensive LOMCs; if there is a Nirvana it is to be found somewhere among the high end LOMCs. They can often be a lot better than inexpensive LOMCs (or they can be awful). But even here, no generalization holds, because we have acolytes for one or another modified version of the DL103 or 103R who will tell us how giant-killing those cartridges are or can be, for one example. On the other other hand (note that there are 3 hands), it is my opinion too that there ARE MM and MI type cartridges that play at the same level of excellence as any of the most expensive LOMCs. Good enough that preference is a matter of legitimate opinion and certainly also system-dependent, probably also room-dependent.
... your input has had zero value, not only to me but to anyone. "Are you happy with your sound" is a meaningless question; what difference at all does it make if I’m happy or not happy with it? If I’m happy with my sound, does that mean my audiophile journey is complete -- is this the "right" mindset? What if I’m NOT happy, may I continue to pursue better sound in that case?
Wether or not I’m happy with my sound has nothing to do with achieving better sound ...
@madavid0 it looks like you were frustrated when you began this thread and that you’re even more frustrated now. My suggestion is that you schedule a visit with a good audio dealer. Then you can listen and decide for yourself.
Whoever disagree with (market) prices assumes some other ''concept '' or theory of value. Say , one assume some ''real value'' different from the (market) prices. As I try to explain with classical economist who distinguished between 'value in use'' and ''value in exchange '' ( aka prices) . Alas they deed not succeed to formulate any consistent theory of the ''real value''. Except perhaps Ricardo in his ''corn economy'' in which all ''values'' are expressed in terms of corn amounts. So one should be aware what one assume. There is no other economic theory than theory of (market) prices,
So I'm browsing through the cartridge listings. It looks like the ads fall into one of two categories:
1. Dealers trying to move cartridges at full price while pretending they are massively discounted.
2. People trying to unload their old junk.
I've learned already through buying vinyl through eBay and Discogs that people habitually lie about the quality of their items -- every single "as-new", "pristine", "looks unplayed", etc, record so far has has been dirty and scuffed. Unless it's literally new in sealed factory shrink wrapping it'll end up being someone's beaten-up crap.
Does the same mentality apply to selling cartridges? At least when a dealer is selling their lightly used cartridge for basically full price, it'll look and probably is in good shape. But some of those private ads the casings look beaten up -- why do I want your beaten up junk bro? At least sell it to move and don't lie about how wonderful it sounds!
Or is it everyone is scanning the listings non-stop for actual good deals and snap them up instantly so that all that's left are the dealers like that guy claiming to sell XYZs for 40-50% off (I do like the ones that have that cool little ball in the front...) and the old junk no one wants?
Where do you find rare cartridges that compete with the finest modern cartridges?
I don't think you do. Buying a used cart is worse than buying a used smartphone.
Yes there will be honest sellers who have took great care of their stuff. They are usually the ones who will point out the smallest of blemishes and have kept all of the paperwork. However, for every one of these there's at least a dozen who should have the phrase 'caveat emptor' emblazened over their ad and tattooed upon their foreheads.
the OP makes an amusing comparison between Magico's and Elacs - funny thing is that Magicos really need both grunt and dexterity to really come alive - think Soulution and Constellation. You ain't gonna make em 'jump' nor would anybody pair magic's with a £400 mass market amp with significantly less power and grunt - although with the Elacs you most probably can and will. So your comparative sample merely supports the viewpoint that one does not pair a LOMC with a load of equipment that does not match the MC. bringing out the best in a top flight MC is going to be a far more expensive and fussy procedure than a £200 MM like a cheaper mass market speaker against a high end design
Without a list of your equipment there is no way to determine weather or not you could notice a difference at any level of cart. Ie: TT phono pre, arm, amp, speakers ect. Give us a base point to start.
Where do you find rare cartridges that compete with the finest modern cartridges?
It’s all abouit digging, same with rare records, can be different sources in different countries. One of my facebook friend discovered NOS (New Old Stock) stash of very rare JVC Victor cartridges along with Audio-Technica cartridges in Las Palmas. Those units were brand new, never used, forgotten stock in the old record shop. In the same shop he has bought Kenwood L-07D an extremely rare direct drive turntable. The guy came there for the vintage records, not for equimpent or not even for the cartridges. The price for a stash of those rare carts was nothing compared to the market value today (he has bought everything). It was about 3-5 years ago. You never know where you can find stuff like that for cheap, but if you can’t do that yourself, some honest audiophiles selling it for reasonable prices, but normally it sells quickly!
The prices only goes up (not down) since some amazing cartridges have been discovered in Raul’s thread on audiogon and approved my many serious audiophiles (and tested against modern MC). 10 years ago the prices even for vintage MM cartridges were so incredibly low, so the smart users of this forum purchaced many of them. Now we know the top contenders for sure. Some of those cartridges were extremely expensive in the time when they were made (in the 70's and in the 80's). Where you can find it? How do you know which one to buy? Do your own search at least read this forum before posting what you’re posting.
If you know nothing, can’t find nothing, at least respect those private sellers (audiophiles) who discovered a rare units, shared their knowledge online, made honest grading, provided pictures etc for their customers. Anytime you buy anything on ebay you’re fully protected and full return is guaranteed by "ebay buyer’s protection", so even total idiots are protected. Ebay is always on the buyer’s side if you fill a claim. It’s hard to imagine a better service for the buyers. Do you think in this situation the seller will try to offer a non working unit or to rob a customer? It’s impossible. People who keep telling you it’s a risk to buy used cartridges knows nothing about it, really! In the worst case buyer can waste time, but it’s impossible to lose money on it (return is guaranteed by ebay’s buyer protection). It can be a nighmare or pain in the ass for the dishonest seller, but not for the buyer.
But actually it’s nice to read the description and ask question before buyin’ anything to maske sure what you’re buying. I have no idea why you’re talking about discogs here, selling records is not like selling a high-end cartridges! But even on discogs everyone is protected because you pay via paypal and you can always ask for full refund if you’re not happy with grading etc. People may have 10 000 records in the shop and can make mistakes in grading, but it’s hard to imagine anyone has even 1000 cartridges.
I love these discussions and most of the responses. With all things considered I gave up chasing Audio Nirvana long ago. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. In the world of audio sound there are countless high end and ridiculously expensive pieces and components and ways to dump hundreds of thousands of dollars in search of the very best sound reproduction money could possibly buy. I always say if you have it then smoke it! Chances are pretty darn good your ears are the weakest link and if the truth be told you likely can't honestly hear all that much difference between a decent $200 cartridge played on the same table and arm as a $2,000 cartridge. It is all good and it is all OK because some here can hear the difference if the change the wires from their amp to the speakers while most cannot. I will always be a staunch believer that once you put together a decent system the room acoustics have a great deal more to do with how pleasing the sound is than most of the rest. You can put a really great system in a really terrible room and I assure you, it will sound terrible. After many years of working in loud environments and loving loud music it is my Audiologist who tells me the real truth and that I can't hear for $heet any way. I am still perfectly fine with my Altec Model 19s and a Luxman PD 121 TT with SME arm and a Denon 103 MC cartridge with a step up matching transformer. Just decide what sounds good enough to you in your listening room and sit back while you spin some clean vinyl.
Madivid0 - I don't think you get it! IMO, you are the person that will create another thread asking if expensive cables are a scam? Expensive speakers are a scam? Expensive amps are a scam? on and on. You probably put down the people that buy more expensive equipment than what you can afford. There are many of you that think their $200 amp sounds as good as a $70,000 solution amp, or your $300 NHT speakers are every bit as good as a $100,000 pair of Magico/Wilson/others... As a replier stated, what don't you like about your system which is a valid question to ask. If you are happy with a $200 cartridge, great, keep it and go on. If you aren't happy, then listen to other cartridges in your price range. If you can't hear a difference in cartridges, then either your system doesn't have high resolution or you can't hear the difference, don't blame vendors that price cartridges out of your price range.
Thank you for your replies! I should have written that there are huge differences between new cheap and expensive LOMC cartridges.
I did not intend to compare what seems to be apples and oranges to me (vintage carts and new carts) and should have made that point clearer in my post.
I agree with Chakster that a vintage MM (if properly matched to the tonearm) can provide results that are as satisfying as a new setup costing many times as much, however there's a great deal of knowledge and a somehow steep learning curve when it comes to the used market.
I also recently came accross a vintage AT Signet MK-111E that was an absolute steal at a little over 300 bucks, considering that it most likely smokes any new LOMC costing 10 times as much, but I don't think that it's fair to compare new MSRP with vintage prices, at least not for the purposes of determining whether a 2/3k LOMC is a scam compared to a much cheaper new LOMC cartridge.
OP, probably best that you use Streaming, iPhone dock, or cheaper disc front end to playback music. Why, because a TT setup sounds to expensive
for you, at this time,
and perhaps even to complicated. Good TT setup is not simple to do and, if wrong, easy for a TT setup to sound ordinary and even bad. It's always a choice and there is quite a lot of choice available.
Disc is simple, can even sound very, very good, and is only one component. Many disc players have a volume control so all you need is a quality amplifier, speakers, cables, and you are set. Too easy and no complaints, maybe and hopefully...
Different cartridges have different sonic profiles (as do all audio components). Depending on your program material, room acoustics, and listening habits, different systems will yield different sounds. The trick, and in my experience, the fun of the hobby is designing systems that delight your senses and allow you to have more meaningful listening experiences.
You may enjoy having several systems. If I’m just potting around the house, I listen to a Tivoli Model 1. If the family is making noise, I slip on some headphones (currently driven by Schiit electronics). Sometimes I enjoy my Harbeth P3r speakers driven by a nice set of Odyssey components. I still enjoy my old Altec model 19 horns driven by the Dynaco S70 I built from a kit when I was a kid. Horses for courses, as they say.
If you are serious about learning how to enjoy this hobby, start with a modest (affordable to you but not too expensive, yet) system, try different things out, and go from there. The Mofi turntable and Studio Tracker is a great start. There are dozens of relatively inexpensive ($100 - $500) cartridges you can try. You’ll probably end up liking certain cartridges better for certain types of music or listening situations. You may end up with something you like better than the others for most situations, and that will inform you as you experiment with different systems. As you gain experience and develop your listening skills, you can be more confident in your purchasing decisions, and, hopefully have more fun and satisfaction listening to your music.
I like my MoFi MasterTracker. It sounds great on my brand new Technics S1200 GR. I liked it better than the UltraTracker on my somewhat resolving system (Harbeths, Odyssey). I have an old Shure V-15 III on a Thorens fitted with a Grace tonearm that is perfect with the Dynaco and the Altecs. Sometimes I will fit an ancient Grado F3+ on the Technics and guess what... it sounds wonderful, especially with my old ’60s and ’70s rock records. I had an Ortophon M5e on an entry level Rega that tracked like a bloodhound and sounded great on more beat up records (that didn’t sound good using the MasterTracker). Years ago I had a Denon 103 on an old Elac/Mircord that was miraculous (and dirt cheap).
Yes, you can spend ridiculous amounts of money on cartridges. I would caution, however, that system synergy becomes more important as you move up the price ladder. Putting the Mastertracker on the Rega RP1 would be a waste of money, just as senseless as putting an AirTight on your MoFi table. I’m sure it would sound great, but you will not be extracting its potential on that table. As a famous rock band once claimed, it’s a question of balance.
There is wristwatches with quartz movements for 100$ that show time much more exact than any Patek Philippe for 100k$. My friend have painted almost the same picture as Picasso, but no one want to buy it for 100$, Picassos painting was sold for 10 millions $ and they are almost the same quality.
And so we can continue with examples in all spheres of our lives.
Of corse 2,5k$ cartridges are better than 200$, if you know why you need it. The same is with loudspeakers, amplifiers, turntables etc.
I can't believe some of the replies you're getting for a pertinent
question. Some of these Files have got theirs heads right up there. Stevecham,
" I choose to save my input for a more enlightened and deserving
poster".
I ask you
Madavid0
.... how does this guy breath?
I've used various cartridges, on various tables, using various arms &
cables since the mid-70's.
I also have a life; house, cars, skis, taxes, electricity, water, add a few
more & what's left is the audio fund.
I've owned various Audio Technica's, a Nagaoka, a Grace, a Grado
Sonata, spun a Benz Glider, and listened to many a Low-MC's in the $3500 dollar
range.
Out of my own personal stuff my fave was the Grace. It cost me $300 dollars in
1980 .... about $945 in today's money - - - + arm board + set-up + tax .... say
$1200 bucks out the door.
Right now I'm setting money aside for a Dynavector-DV20X2-H, which will put
me out about $1200 bucks out the door. So dollar wise things are about the same.
What about the Grado? Well it's like several guys have posted, " it has to
be set up correctly & there's got to be a synergy with your gear
".
I like the Grado, it was priced right,
(new arm-board, set-up & taxes) $800 CDN out the door. It's warm, lush,
quick, lovely sound stage, neutral, but it's the wrong set-up.
With my Pre-amp the 0.5 output voltage
is too weak, I should have chosen the 5.0 Sonata, which is what the Grace was.
Another stain on me was not doing enough
research concerning a Rega RB-300 arm, matched to a Grado Sonata MI
cartridge. Add an Oracle TT & we have the infamous Grado hum. (BTW) Grado
refused to assist.
To answer your question, are high-end cartridge purchases a scam? Well that
depends. You're spinning records here, you're
not making Ben Hurr, so what is the
sound of music worth to you?
For me, Hi-Fi is one of my great joys in life, my table cost me $1800 CDN in
1980, the arm $350 & the cartridge another $300. Since then I've bought one
tone-arm (Discovery phono cable Incl) and the Grado $800, and now another grand
for the DV Dynavector. Not including the Pre-amps I've purchased, that's well
over $4 grand to spin records for 37 years. Some say that's nuts, some say
that's small potatoes.
I think you should be able to get a good starter kit (used) to spin your
records, with a new cartridge for $2500.
Will esoteric low-MC cartridges costing $3500 & up
sound leaps & bounds better than a properly set-up $1000 dollar unit? Well
.... if you have an outstanding recording to start with, a room with proper
proportions, a room with properly placed acoustic treatments, a well matched
Pre-amp and aptly matched phono cable, I'm sure a difference will be auditable.
Scam?
If you work within the limitations of your resources .... I don't think so.
Enjoy your obsessions.
I returned back to vinyl about 9 years ago. Although I had continued to collect some 78s over the years, this was the first time since about 1992 since I'd had a real set up. Since my return I've bought a hand full cartridges as well as had a chance to hear some different examples in shops including owning the Music Maker III. As beautiful and detailed as it was it did not have the slam and weight I was looking for, so I sold it. Plus I needed cash at the time and a nice gentleman now happily owns it. I know for a fact that there are plenty of people on this forum that have owned more examples than my self. I also understand that in general moving coils can slightly improve as the price climbs but here is my take.
OK for starts I am now running a Grado gold with a paratrace stylus on it that I potted with wax. Tracking, detail and realism are all top notch to me. The other two I've been bouncing between are ( Are you ready?) $60 Shure cartridges, the sc35c and the m35x. Both of these cartridges today are marketed as spin and mix DJ carts but have a professional hifi and broadcast history. Now I am using the n35x and a n44-gx stylus for lower tracking purposes. I'm also looking into a paratrace for these as well, simply because they sound very clear and balanced with an actual bass response that most of the more expensive cartridges I've owned lacked.
I have mentioned before here on this forum that I manufacture guitar pickups and grew up in the guitar building, repair and retail business.That does not necessarily make me an expert in high end home audio, nor do I mean to criticize the purchasing or quality of uber priced cartridges. The thing is with the exception of exotic stylus, quality magnets and coil wire is not that expensive. Of course there is the labor cost, but no guitar pickup manufacturer or a company like Shure who's been tooled up for years would even consider charging in the thousands for their products. Again if people want and can afford cartridges in that price range more power to them.
@ thehorn Just a little edification on why maybe the op is getting such replies Take a look at the titles of the treads he has initiated so far, see a pattern?
The impression given so far by the op is that he is basically anti audio and the majority are wondering just what the heck he is doing in these forums at all. Or that he has some agenda, you chose.
Also even where members have taken the time and trouble to put together a pretty meaningfull informative reply the op has blown those posts off and carried on his merry way of insisting all of audio is some type of huge scam.
There will always be the haves and the have nots, its life.
Hope that illuminates the attitude now being displayed towards the op somewhat. Have a blessed day!
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