Cartridges: Complete Scam?

Dear @chakster : Very informative video, thank's.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : What I said about professional musicians was not in reference to timing subject. Was only a fact that I found out, nothing more than that.

The whole comparison between audio and live music is a " sea " of diferent characteristics  and that's why, even that live music is my reference, I say that we audiophiles will enjoy better the listening experiences in our room/system as nearer that system is to the recording.

I think that exist one advantage on what the recording microphones pick up during process and that is " detail " due that good microphones have a very wide frequency range and " support " high SPL. In these regards the mics. could be better than our ears but even here is very complicated to have precise conclusions.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @chakster : """  Most of the professional musicians does not have a perfect pitch!  """

Could be but I don't know for sure. What I found out with some professional musicians ( some friends of mine, including a Symphonic Director. ) is that over years their ears losted accuracy and the frequency range goes more and more limited/reduced. The main issue is not because they are older gentlemans but because oever the years they are exposed to extremely high SPL for continuous time.

"""  But  i believe we cannot hear when 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm. """

As you I think is almost imposible to do it. Our brain perceives that tiny unstability but what we listen in that TT condition the brain can't be sure if it's by speed unstability  or for other room/system characteristic.

Dear @frogman : """  is sometimes identified by audiophiles by some turntables being perceived as “livelier” than others. ........................................................... it is one of the things that causes preference of one turntable over the other depending on individual sensitivity to these problems. """

I think no one can be sure on what you said because there are to many parameters invloved down there. An analog rig is not only the TT and that " livelier " or " preference " can comes to from: cartridge, tonearm, IC cables, phono stage, that LP recording process because the speed unstability can comes from there and not from the TT it self, analog rig set up, etc, etc,
To aisle a problem of TT speed stability must be do it in a " scientific " way through measures in the short and long intervals of time or can be identified when that unstability is a gross one.
The other subject is that we have to take our time to be trained in our room/system to identify that critical " timing ". Not an easy task.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : ""  I don’t understand why that should surprise anyone.   """. Again you took my sentences word by word. No, I'm not surprised with, all we know that reproduction of music vs live MUSIC is only a heavy make-up clown " and that's why i posted: " We can't avoid it ".
So what?, well we can't compare it in exactly way.

In home audio neutrality comes from what each one of us are accustom to and what neutrality means for each one of that almost always is different. Of course that there are people that likes more and use words as: warm, brigth, dark, etc, etc. These does not tell us that we are not more sensitive to timing, even some of us don't identify the word " timing " and its meaning but this does not says we are not more sensityive to timing than neutrality. Neutrality depends on the room/audio system items and set up when timing is independent of all that but that TT speed unstability. In the other side brain can accustom to little unstability speed and takes it as part of the music and we can't detect it because of that.

We can detect is that unstability is not only constant in the shor time and in high degree and some times even the kind of music we are listening and the SPL at what we are listening. No rules here.

You said that you don't have limits but what you listening is normally different as what I listening and other people listening and i'm refereing on what my brain is aware to detect and how is detected. In this regards  each one of us is a unique/individual.

Regards and enojoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : Not only me but any human been is more sensible/sensitive to timing than neutrality, this is not what I’m trying to explain and that you took " letter by letter " of my post when that was not my intention.

I don’t disagree with you because I have ( not so many as you ) LP with timing " problems " that are easy detected but around the 90% of recordings the timing is just aceptable.

Now, my question to you was : which are those speed stability limits for we can’t detect any timing problem?

Example: if my TT instead to spin at 33.333 rpm spins at 33.332 rpm: can we detect it?.

Now, if what you are saying is that perfect timing is only in live music then in audio always we have a timing problem reproduction that exist even if we can’t detect it. My question to you is still the same: which are the limits? because audio is an imperfect medium.

Btw, in the whole recording/playback process the analog alternative is more prone to timing problems than digital.

Anyway: which are those speed unstability limits? zero tolerance? because the timing problem in  audio always existed and if in the future nothing change allways will be there. We can't avoid it. So, which your conclusion about? because even in the LPs where you like its rhythm exist a timing problem ! ! ! 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : In TT speed stability is a very desired TT characteristic, no doubt about but the critical an important subject there is : which the edge/border for the rhythm be losted due to TT speed stability?

During the recording process exist speed un-stabilities through the R"R decks and maybe ( I don't know for sure. ) during the cutting process and you can't hear or detect that rhythm was losted. So exist a limit for speed un-stability and speed stability has other roads as: short time or in the long time, depends how performs the TT. In which time is present.

Do you know those TT speed limits for not affect the rhythm? because there is no perfect TT and almost all of us enjoy that MUSIC rhythm.

In the other side @chakster tracking ability is not the cartridge it self is only part of something important too that's is the cartridge motor design.

The importance in that cartridge tracking abilities is that as better tracker as more recorded information you have along lower distortion levels. If that cartridge  performance or what you listen like you or not that's another matters.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @frogman : It's obvious the importance on TT speed stability but in my experience today decent TTs has that speed stability, not perfect but almost.

Even with " non so perfect " speed stability you can't recovery in any way what the cartridge can't pick-up and that's why is so important and critical the cartridge tracking abilities.
We can fix some kind of issues with the TT speed stability but we can't fix the inherent cartridge self tracking abilities.

In the analog alternative all parameters and audio items are truly important due that the alternative is so imperfect. So I agree that TT is important, no one is vs this true. What I'm pointing out is that inside the whole " parameters "  cartridge tracking abilities is crucial because the recorded information is " there " and only the cartridge can pick up.

So, a perfect analog rig must have: a perfect TT, a perfect cartridge, a perfect tonearm and a perfect phono stage with perfect IC cables in a perfect set up. Well these we can't " see " it not even in our dreams.

Btw, before rhythm we need to have " all " the recorded information, to this can happens we need that the cartridge stays matched to the tonearm with a rigth tonearm/cartridge/set up and after all these comes the critical issue of TT speed stability. As I said everything is important in the analog alternative. Obviously that if the TT does not spins we have nothing at all.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @cd318 @chakster : Tonearm always is important and TT a little " less important " but the main cartridge characteristic ( other than the cartridge " motor ", the transducer it self. ) is the cartridge tracking abilities.

That’s what define the information that the cartridge pick-up, after this main characteristic then the motor define the quality of is reproduced on that information that the cartridge pick-up.

Cartridge tracking abilities has no substitute. Any decent cartridge can pick-up the information but its own abilities defines how much information will pick.up. The other main parameter is the audiophile knowledge level and skills to make a " perfect " cartridge/tonearm/TT set up.

Btw, tracking abilities in a cartridge is not defined by a price range. There are expensive ones that are poor trackers and the other way around too.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @madavid0: I don’t know how or why you decided to go with this AT LOMC cartridge.

Anyway, yes it needs at least 40-50 hours before settle down completely. After those playing hours you need to make a complete and new cartridge/tonearm parameters set up/fine tunning it.

In this link you can go to " reviews " and you will read what owners of this cartridge said about.:

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/8e67b15a2a48de4e/index.html

Btw, LOMC cartridges are not sensitive to load impedance changes. That 100 ohms choice in your MS is fine. Don’t worry about yet till the fine tunning time and then you will know what to do. If after the time of playing the cartridge you still do not likes then follow the  what one gentleman just posted to you on that AT carrtridge

"""  But it will only be heard on a more capable table,phono amp. """

or learn why does not like you.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @raymonda : The tonearm manufacturer protractor has to have 100% accuracy and that you can use it " thousands " of times if necessary. Paper just does not works as protrcator.

R.

Dear @folkfreak : You are rigth/correct. All those set up parameters/tools are important.

Now, what I'm refering here is in specific: overhang, P2S distance and offset angle.
This is the tonearm manufacturer own responsability. No one else.

AZ and  VTA/SRA:   normally you make it by ears. What I mean is that the tools you mentioned about can help but the final/fine tunning of those two parameters you make by ears according/following to your own room/system evaluation tests proccess.

In reference to test record I almost do not use any more even that I own no less than 20 different test records.

As you know as more and more experience and learning job we have as more easy the whole set up but those set up parameters that are handled by a tonearm protractor.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @inna : """ I thought you cartridge guys would align by ear. ............ When using alignment tools, any tools, how can you be sure that they give you the best result ? Very uncool of you. And incorrect. """

Do you have idea what we are talking here?, seems to me you have not and if you think you know what we are talking here then whom is totally incorrect is no one but you.

If you think your statement is correct please tell us how did/do you ( by ears. ) makes the cartridge/tonearm overhang and offset angle set up?, because that’s what we are talking about and what mainly protractors does.

Enligth our day ! .

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @folkfreak : Yes, to mount any cartridge in his tonearm design. @folkfreak , this is not " rocket science ".

I own over 10 diferent protractors and as every one I spend money with and I spend money first because my ignorance levels on the whole tonearm/cartridge/TT alignment set up and second because almost all the manufacturers just were and are irresposables for say the least.

The real issue is not if you are satisfied with the protractor you use and that posted you like. The main and critical subject is that if the tonearm manufacturer makes what's is total responsability about you, me and every analog audiophiles do not need to buy any single after market protractor. It does not matters if the price is 100 or 600 or whatever.

That is the subject and we must not support any tonearm irresponsability or say: " I like my after market protractor. "

When  customers that are the ones that support the whole audio industry will say/shout to the all irresponsable manufacturers that are totally wrong?  when will be the day when we customers really be totally satisfied with an audio item where there were the necessity to buy an after market item to fulfill your needs?

Do you know when?  when we left to buy those manufacturers audio items. Is the only way, because they are seated in his comfort zone and very happy taking our money, because it's our MONEY.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @larryi : I understand your last post statements, even that the issue is that no one should need anykind of protractor not even a shop. Problem is the same: responsability of tonearm/TT manufacturers.

In the other side seems to me that you are proud of the alignment you choosed:

"""  my alignment (change to UNI DIN)  """

That is nothing special. Here you can read about:

https://www.analogplanet.com/content/uni-din-versus-l%C3%B6fgren-b-just-clarify

in those times even MF did not understand in deep the whole critical tonearm/cartridge/TT alignment set up. Read the thread and pay attention to the last 3 posts in that MF thread.

You can have your own special alignment and call it: USA-IEC or USADIN, to do that you only have to change the input data in the calculations. The real differences in between any kind of alingments is where we have the distortions levels and I means higher or lower levels and where: in between null points and out of those two null points. That it's.

I said that in protractors could be something as a " scam " taking advantage of we customers ignorance levels. No one knows everything about everything in audio. In that thread MF did not understan it in full and this confirm my statement.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @larryi : Reading your post I can see why the audio industry just can't grow up.

The ones in the audio industry/manufacturers have a non-renunciable obligation/responsabilirty with all we customers/audiophiles and this responsability is to give the customer all what he need to operate their audio items.

In the case of tonearms it's just ridiculous that exist " hundreds " of after market protractors because almost no one tonearm manufacturer gives the accurate and user friendly protractor.

The whole responsability is the manufacturer NOT YOU OR ME or any one else.

If the manufacturer can't do it then we customers have to forget that manufacturer and buy the tonearms with the one that has the knowledge level to understand how to build the rigth protractor for his design.

The best busine$$ in audio are not what the audio industry offers but all the after market audio items that exist because the irresponsability of the manufacturers and for audiophiles like you |that are poor demanding about.

For the OP and because what I'm telling here the best option is the MINTLP protractor that is dedicated/custom made for its analog rig and that have all the advantages you name it for a hundred buks.

Well, even those 100.00 should not be a necessity for we audiophiles.

That's happens because we audiophiles have the culprit, we are less and less demanding and other of us have high ignorance levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear @madavid0: """  Being honest, your input has had zero value, not only to me but to anyone. "Are you happy with your sound" is a meaningless question; what difference at all does it make if I'm happy or not happy with it? """

it's clear to me and almost any one that you not only do not make the rigth questions or that you just don't understand what differents posts or questions to you its real meaning. It is clear that the analog experience does not exist in your world. Your stupid questions because there is the rigth word for it says you are not even an analog roockie.

" A re you happy with your sound? " is nothing more nothing less the clue of audio the clue for a digital or analog alternative the clue for a good or bad room/audio system the more important clue to evaluate or compare anything in audio.

Obviously that you don't/can't understand it and less the why's.

First step to understand the importance of that clue is to be sure know for sure what to look for in the quality level performance in any room/system. According to your statements in reference to my questions to you you have no idea what to look for in your own system, even I don't know why you have it if can't understand it.

For you can know for sure what to look you must have " thousands " of first hand experiences with live MUSIC at near field seating positions. With out those " thousands " experiences you can't help your self but no one can gives you any kind of help.

Secon step is to have an attitude that's totally willing to learn and this means, because you are below an analog roockie level, that if a experienced audiophile tells you: stand up you will stand up in silence and if he tells you cross your fingers then you cross your fingers in silence. 
Willing to learn means that you have to live you have to experienced in your system the advises that true audiophile gave you before ask nothing about, this is the way to learn in the analog experience.

With out these two steps you are " dead " before you can pull/touch the trigger.

No one can learn something really usefull only reading what other people say with out knowing the other people audio knowledge levels and certainly not true attendance to audio shows or trusting at 100% on audio distributors but you can learn how to improve your sound if you listen as many room/system you can rigth at other audiophiles places and learning for them what to do and what not to do, then comeback home and live the experiences.

As you will learn step by step with patience, time and money ( for all the mistakes you will do. Any of us already pass for.  ) you step by step will enjoy more and more your room/system and your questions will left to be stupid ones and converts clever ones to continue the learning proccess.

A third step for you could be to check by your self if the tonearm/cartridge in your analog rig set up is accurated and you have to do this with out help of any one, with out ask no one but learning for your self.

So, why don't makes your self a favor and makes that set up check-out? and then come back here and share your findings instead to add more stupid questions.

About scam in general/normally there are no scams as a true scam. Audio is a special world and a way of different living that you have to understand before put any names.
Of course that exist real scams made it by fraudulents persons that takes advantage of the ignorance of audio people but normally it's not. Why exist the " scams " you name it: because ignorance level of the people whom bougth it. A clear example is the potractors.

Btw, do you really understand what you posted?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear friends: I don't know you but for me is very dififult to have a good dialogue/discussion with people that really can't " read " what they read. I can read something and just not understand it because I have a " slow brain " or in other words because I'm stupid.

I posted several times in other analog roockie threads where they have not any idea of analog but understand what experienced people posted and his questions and answers they gives are inteligent questions/answers, they have common sense.

Unfortunatelly this is not the case with this analog roockie that every single post repeat and repeat the " same " with out understand what other people said.

He posted question after question with the same wrong topic and when some one ask him something he just does not answered,  dead silence almost as his brain.

He gave no answer to this posted question: 

""" I think that before you ask what you posted there you have to ask your self: how good is the quality sound you are listening at your analog home system. Are you impressed? ""

That dead silence tell me not only his ignorance levels but his stupidity level.

My question to all of you: can you have a " decent " dialogue with a stupid person? with some one that maybe can't even remember his name?

Maybe I'm to stupid trying to do it.

Forums everywhere is a free place to make some kind of audio contribution that can help audiophiles and music lovers. Which is his real contribution here for any one ?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Btw, @inna : """  For as long as we are talking analog not digital, it is fine ""

Things are that today with out help of digital technologies you can't improve your analog experiences.

Dear @madavidO: """ I’m very new to analog """, no doubt about even if you did not posted about. Nothing wrong with be an analog roockie.

An analog roockie usually makes the wrong questions ( some one could say: stupid ones but in reality there are not stupid questions coming from a roockie. What it is is a very high ignorance level. It can’t in other way and I think you understand it. ) like you here.

In audio the word scam means different things for different audiophiles. What for me could be a scam for other gentleman can be a bargain or can be justified for what ever reason.

You made the very typical roockie mistake: bougth audio items like your MoFi rig at an audio show/fest.


""" the MoFi room was also running TAD Evolution Ones and high end electronics, so OF COURSE it was going to sound good...I was impressed with such a “modest” front end was up to it though. """

and because of what you listened you bougth what you have. You followed that post:

" The question is: ........ ", I think that before you ask what you posted there you have to ask your self: how good is the quality sound you are listening at your analog home system. Are you impressed?

Btw, MoFi does not manufacture cartridges and I think that MoFi buys from At and that your 200.00 bundler in reality is a 70.00 AT 90. Well, you are an analog rookie and you are starting in the analog learning curve, a very long long curve.

""" If I blow 2.5k minimum on an Air Tight ..... """

again wrong question/way of thinking. Two simple questions before that: have you the kind of money to buy that Air Tigth cartridge and what it needs? have you the rigth tonearm and phono stage to honor the Air Tigth cartridge?

Did you know that Air Tigth is not the manufacturer of the cartridges they has for sale?

As you for every one of us each single day in audio is a learning one.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Oh, yes the Air Tigth overblow your blunder by a very wide margin, not only diferent colorations as you say.