How can I punish this Chinese audio dealer


I ordered three pairs of tubes from him last year.

The dealer used to respond to my e-mail within 2 days with fast shipping.

The Psavne Acme 805 tube went bad after 7 days of use.


But with claim of bad tube, he stopped responding to me at all..

I sent him 6 e-mail within 7 days.


Will Paypal refund be the best way to punish him?



[email protected]
수 2018-12-26, 오전 12:47



ok sir
thanks

[email protected]

From: Thomas Kong
Date: 2018-12-26 16:43
To: hifi-amplifiers.com
Subject: Re: Order Confirmation No: 11720
I received Acme 805 tube yesterday.

PSVANE Acme Serie 805 Vacuum Tube High-end tube Be


Please note that both tube are made by same company Psvane.

Cossor valve was league above from stock tube with refined bass and deeper bass.


As soon I replaced Cossor Valve 805 with Acme 805 today, I noticed clear window of transparency and more details.

It seem like I had inserted pre amp since the change was so drastic.

The soundstage got wider with 3-d holographic with clear window.



It had not been burnt yet so it may be possible to change its sound for the next 2 weeks.

But the first impression is very positive.

I will keep you informed of the progress.

I also have pair of NOS United 805 tubes which I had not used yet.

After Acme got fully broken in, I will also compare it with NOS United.





Order Confirmation

Thomas Kong,
Thanks for shopping with us today!
The following are the details of your order.

Order Number: 11720
Date Ordered: Thursday 20 December, 2018

Products
1 xPSVANE Acme Serie 805 Vacuum Tube High-end tube Best Matched Pair (Psvane Acme Serie 805)$732.99 USD
---------Sub-Total:$732.99 USDFREE SHIPPING! (Free Shipping Delivery Charge.):$0.00 USDTotal:$732.99 USD
Hello

As usual, I expect you to ship it fast

thanks


United States
Payment Method
PayPal
7aeeb429 76a8 4040 a90e 93802cf27573shkong78
You would have been better off buying a pair of USA-made 805's (used still with good emissions). And for less money!
I got burned a few years ago when I ordered a tube preamp from China! 

I had bought NOS United 805 tubes but it is hard to get one in good condition.
I had paid using Paypal on this case.

Thus I may be able to file claim of lemon product with Paypal.
Yes, if Chinese dealer isn't responding, get Paypal to intervene. 

  Note: Not all Chinese dealers are bad. I bought a defective Psvane tube from a Chinese dealer and he told me to return defective tube. Once he received tube he would send new tube. I returned the tube and he was good to his word and shipped me quickly a new tube that performed normally. 
PayPal may support you due to the fact that the dealer has a 1-year warranty on tubes.  You will need to send the tube back to the dealer so that they can get a replacement from their supplier and to determine the source of the failure. 
I have had poor luck ordering tubes from most anyone but I still do would say about 50% of the NOS used or new tubes I buy are not as represented and even new have noise issues.
I have had terrific outcomes with Asia based dealers but I do my due diligence and support local/regional dealers first. If something is only available through an Asia based source, like any other transaction, do your homework. Based on your post, you were just trying to save some money since the items you purchased were available through a local/regional dealer network. That doesn't always work out to be the case as evidenced by your unfortunate experience. You should mail the tube(s) back and request a new set. Then resort to Paypal. The dealer isn't likely to send you a new one based on your word alone. Being nice also helps so include a complimentary letter requesting your desired outcome. It will work out or it will be a lesson. Either way, its just audio and the sun will rise tomorrow. I have had more issues with fellow audiogoners overstating the condition of their gear for sale than I have had with Asia based dealers. Just saying...
Post removed 
@johnk    What is a used NOS tube?
If nothing can be done via PayPal, you don't have an option for a non-responsive China-based dealer...even if you know someone who lives in China.  For example, I had purchased a jade bracelet for my wife while in China. It was from a government store so I assumed (you know what happens when you assume) the quality would be w/o question.  In the states, she was wearing the bracelet when she bumped against an object...breaking the bracelet into three pieces. Found out that it was glued together.  I have friends in China and still was unable to get anything done for us.  Sorry, but as noted, be careful when purchasing electronics from overseas.
Not that it helps but the writing around the date is in Hangul (Korean).  Are you sure the dealer in China
Used NOS tube? No such thing. How could something advertised as “new old stock” be used?
IMO ALL 'so called' NOS are used at this point in time. ....
How else? Ancient Chinese water torture! LOLBut seriously I feel sorry for you but I never deal with foreign countries, You really have no recourse if a number of things go wrong. You're essentially dealing with another countries laws which don't apply here.I stick to reputable dealers and do my own research.I almost got burned from someone in Hong Kong through paypal.I complained at paypal and eventually he returned my money. $1,500.00whew! As far as tubes goes all I have are three suggestions; Tube Depot, Upscale Audio,The Tube Store,Tube man. Good Luck.
Buy cheap get what you pay for. Crap and get ripped off. Hard to commiserate.
Punish him? Really??

File a PayPal claim and leave him negative feedback if possible. 

Then accept responsibility for the risk you took, learn from it and move on. 

Paying over $700.00 for a pair of Audio tubes is definitely a first world problem. 
Reading some of the experiences above makes a person switch to solid-state quickly.

Otherwise, I would say exactly what woodsage above did. PayPal, bad feedback, move on.
IMO ALL ’so called’ NOS are used at this point in time. ....


I am in agreement with Elizabeth, the N should be dropped from NOS. Perhaps UUOS would be more appropriate. Un Used Old Stock. If tubes that old are new then I’m young.

My experiences have been similar to JohnK’s when it comes to buying NOS tubes. Very hit and miss. Same with un-graded Chineses tubes and new production Russian replica tubes. I think my best experiences have been with the replica Tung Sol.

In the end trying to punish anyone just punishes you . Move on .
I have no doubt that , as elizabeth said, at this stage all NOS tubes are used . Except for the ones that are just plain fakes that is .
Post removed 
Update on the situation.

Since I was busy with some other thing, I had not filed complaint with Paypal yet.

It seems that somehow the dealer read message belatedly (about 1 week later).

If it works out fine, I will update it again.




dear sir.sorry about that your email is in trash so we not received it we are read you email and with contact with you as soon.

dear sir.if you received our message please send some picture to us we will deal with it tomorrow please don’t worry about it if it bad we will ship an New one to you thanks

I guess you can call off that air strike. 

My dark humor aside, it's good to hear that they'll try to rectify your situation.

All the best,
Nonoise
If it works fine,then I will call off the air strike.

And I will  update if they cooperate with the situation well.

The only bad thing is that I had not got response from the dealer for 10 days even after sending 5 emails.

I was pretty upset.

But if I get the replacement tube pretty soon, then I can recommend this dealer again with good price and fast shipping.
If this doesn't work out, please post a warning in Shady Lane.
If you must order from overseas...simply do it through Amazon.
Even then, you have to stay on top of it. In the end Amazon ends up eating it.
I had exchanged e-mail with dealer.

His virus program filtered any e mail with enclosed files to spam mails

The dealer will ship new replacement 805 Acme tube on Monday.

I will update the situation after I receive the 805 Acme tube.

In most case, Paypal will give enough protection.
I have been a tube guy for the last 15 years and have had too much bitter lessons in buying vintage tubes.  Never trust NOS indeed, especially you plan to use them on SET amps.  You simply cannot get a real matched pair.  Not to mention how much premium you have to pay for a pair of WE 300B, 274b, RCA211, etc.. you will never have a peace of mind in buying vintage tubes imho. 
I must agree. NOS tubes are hit or miss even from dealers I respect. Fortunately new tubes are getting better and better. Just purchased a pair of kt77 power tubes from US manufacturer Walthen. Looking forward to trying these out. Reviews sound promising.
No tube amp. Period. End of story.
philkoan--No tube amp unless you know what you're doing. End of story.
I just goolged the definition  of NOS. By it's definition it's a contradiction in terms, New / Old ? hmmm? Sounds to me like last years fresh milk.
" hey boss what do we do with all these old tubes?"" just call them NEW / OLD tubes, even give them a acronym NOS tubes somebody will buy them."
Folks bought tubes and tested them. using the best. Setting aside the lesser ones. Well, all that are left are the junk no one wanted...Just my impression. NOS.
@ elizabeth
You're probably right and they should be labeled JOS (Junk Old Stock).......Jim
I bought two kits full of bits and pieces and countless tubes at a garage sale. The old guy used to repair electronics as a service tech and carry these around in the van. The tubes are quite old and unopened in their individual boxes. If I were to sell them I would likely choose the term NOS as they are new in the box but 70 years old. How would you better identify them?
Is he actually a Korean dealer? Since I see Korean characters in the email you quoted. 
70 years old.. So you know he had them from day one? and just because they are nice old boxes, does not mean they were never opened and different tubes (used) placed in them. Sure CALLING THEM NOS is fine. but the fact is they are all used, maybe gently used, but USED.                
Then my comment about all that are left are the unwanted tubes!I guarantee folks bought cases and cases of tubes, selecting the best to use (up) and selling off the lesser ones. over and over. So now, IMO anything even remotely 'like new' is because they sounded like garbage back in the day.. OR, It got pulled from some organ, or other dead electronics in some old guys shop. (and put back into nice new looking boxes LOL)

Vacuum tube commerce has collapsed in the 40+ year lapse since I abandoned them. All of the principal domestic, British, Dutch, and German producers are now either defunct (like Tung-Sol Electric, my employer from ’57-’60), or they’ve long since ceased making tubes. The entire world market for (receiving-type) tubes is now confined to a small coterie of audiophiles and guitar buffs, and served only by obscure Russian and Chinese suppliers with no previous market recognition. (There are other minor sources in former Soviet bloc countries.) The quality, consistency, and reliability of the tubes made by those arcane foreign suppliers is a subject of concern. And those sources will persist only as long as there’s viable demand, so the outlook for assured access to replacement stock seems dicey. Further, this situation prevails at a time when every instrumented means of evaluating audio quality validates the superiority of modern solid state design. Tube boosters reply that “my ears are more accurate than your instruments”, but their faith is mired in groupthink. There’s no credible A/B/X aural evidence to support the “tubes sound better” cult. Vacuum tubes are the remnants of a dead technology. Don’t consort with zombies.


""Don’t consort with zombies""              
Great advertising copy! I can see the promotional material now...The usual zombie looking walking dead, carrying tube amps and preamps or tubes. Wandering around CES...
>>How can I punish this Chinese audio dealer<<

Send him the Yoko Ono Box Set. 
Post (honest, direct, to the point) feedback on how you've been treated and go to PayPal and start the refund process... Then go to a reputable tube dealer (Brent Jesse Tubes for instance), and spend your money with confidence...
I think you have learned a valuable lesson.  You should always deal with a local dealer.  The extra price is worth it.
There is no local dealer of Acme 895 tube in US.

It seems that the dealer will send new replacement at no extra charge.

So I will keep dealing with him due to fast shipping and good price.

It is tricky to get nice NOS tube.

But I had luck most of time.


I bought pair of original Western Electric 300B made in 1930’s 15 years ago at 3K$.

But after using it for 10K hours, it is still the best tube with nuanced details and holographic soundstage.


I had tried various NOS tube to Rogue Cronus Magnum II.

With Amperex 12au7 and Telefunken 12ax7 that I had bought from Ebay dealer, Rogue sound very nice.


If you know how to buy NOS tube wisely, tube rolling is fun.


Most re issue tubes are just so so or bright sounding.

But Shuguang Treasure 6Sn7 and 300B tubes are quite good even with compared with some NOS tubes.

Psavne Acme 805 tube sounded spectacular before one of it went bad.

So I will keep watching after getting replacement.


If you do not enjoy tube rolling, then you may just use SS amp.

But if you do enjoy it, there are lot of choices including NOS and some modern tubes.
Have had good experience with E-bay refunding, they tend to side with buyers IF you have the documentation.  However, you have to consider the following, and its a lot of work.  Get into their system and file a refund request.  They have a system that allows you to include narrative and pictures to document what is wrong.  You need to prove to them with data and/or photo’s that the item was/is not as described.  If you communicate with the buyer on the e-bay system then e-bay can also access your joint communications. I used screen shots of the e-bay transactions and communications from the history file, took pictures, and provided a written narrative to prove the tubes sold were not as described.  Their system is a little clumsy but if you are patient you can figure it out.  They will set time frames how long it takes for the seller and you to come to some sort of agreement.  They make an attempt to get you and the seller to solve it yourselves.  If you prove you have tried that without success, several times, then e-bay will engage.  They will assign the case to essentially an e-bay adjudicator who will review the facts you provided and then make a decision.  It takes a while and there is a time frame while waiting where you can’t interact much to move it along, you have to be patient for their time frames to expire.  If you request a refund, e-bay usually required you to return the item and they will not refund until the tracking documents it has been returned.  This can be dicey when returning for two reasons:  1) e-bay expects the seller to pay for the return unless the listing says diffierently.  They may or may not agree.  In that case you have to pay for the return and document it and include it in the $ your are attempting to recover.  Once it got hung up in German customs and the seller refused to pick it up.  In that case the tracking numbers documented that it has sat there for 2-3 weeks and they recognized the seller was stalling and declared it delivered.   On one occasion after I submitted all the data and the seller was not cooperative I made a phone call to e-bay customer service and they actually handled the review right over the phone with me by looking at what I had submitted as proof and made a decision in my favor within the hour. I’ve purchased perhaps 100 tubes in the last 18 months from Russian, China, Germany, Yugoslavia, Poland, and the U.S.  Usually in lots of two.  I’ve had 3 occasions where I was burned badly and sought e-bay refunds after carefully documenting and “using their process”.  These were $250 purchases.   It worked every time.  I had two where the cost was so minimal that I decided not to pursue it.  Risk of these international sales.  Don’t wait too long as E-bay sets time limits.   Most have been good and I’ve developed some great seller relationships because they have been reliable and sell tubes that were as good or better than described.  Its a process to discover who is a great supplier and this includes discovering the bad ones.  Good luck.
@ newf27

Whew!

It took me 10 min to go through your long thread.

At least Amazon, Ebay, Paypal try to be on the buyer’s side.

That is important.

You had gone through lot of deals.

I will not try to buy from outside  Conus.

But I have got no choice in new Chinese tubes.

>>How can I punish this Chinese audio dealer<<

>>Send him the Yoko Ono Box Set<<


Rather harsh punishment given that Yoko was Japanese but still best post of the day.

 wcfeil429 posts01-11-2019 6:02pm>>How can I punish this Chinese audio dealer<<

Send him the Yoko Ono Box Set.
LOL, LOL,  LOL,I don't know who's suggestion is more torture mine or yours, the dealer would still end up with a terrific headache!
You should ask if he would adopt you. Or does that sound like cruel and inhumane punishment?