@devinplombier @toddalin
I told you I inherited a Hovland Radia amp. At the time I had a McCormack DNA-1 upgraded to the top of Steve McCormack's many upgrades. It sounded damn good for a non-Boulder-priced amp. It was very musical and made me happy. I didn't see any reason to change to another amp.
When I first compared the Hovland to the DNA, I thought it was a no brainer. The McCormack was much more "musical." But being an audiophile, I continued to compare them for weeks. And suddenly--I can't remember what I was listening to--there was no contest. The Hovland was so much better. The McCormack threw an enticing wall of sound, but I could hear into the music with the Hovland. A soundstage I'd never heard before because I never had the money to buy a good amp. And for me, it wasn't something that I could hear right away, or even in an hour.
When my friend who made preamps left his at my house for several weeks, hoping I'd buy it, it sounded better than the CJ at first. It was a very seductive preamp. It reminded me in a way of an ARC LS22 preamp I bought many years ago. That took me a review from the late, great Wes Phillips at Stereophile to really hear. Again, seductive mids and mid-bass, but not great treble that I never noticed until Wes Phillips pointed it out. I have a feeling many people out there still have their LS22s and love them.
So, what has this got to do with buying something from a guy who makes one speaker in his garage. In other words, he has one speaker design which he reproduces. I might very well be taken with the guy and with his speaker and a month or even more later decide there was something about it I hadn't heard and I really didn't want to keep it. What to do? Sell a non-brand speaker on eBay? Really, you're kind of stuck. A good dealer will let you trade it in on something you do like, or I can sell my Sonus Fabers. People know about them and know that they're considered good speakers.
So, it's perhaps mostly my problem for taking a while to really hear a piece of equipment. But I bet others have the same problem. And I'd advise them to go to a dealer and buy a name brand.
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Probably one of the reasons that I would not buy from somebody who makes equipment is because I know so little about their workings.
@audio-b-dog
That's interesting. I understand the sentiment, but why would it only be an issue with a one-man operation? Shouldn't the primary criterium when purchasing gear be the quality of the sound, the faithfulness with which the music is reproduced?
Per your own experience, secondary issues such as serviceability 20 years on (or lack thereof) are usually unrelated to a company's size or standing at the time of purchase.
Not trying to nitpick, I'm just curious.
Incidentally, I am enjoying this conversation. It is always good to find common ground with folks with whom we may disagree on other grounds. It makes me wish more folks out there exercised that skill. But then again you're a writer, whereas I merely wish I were one :)
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@devinplombier
I used to own a BMW and loved it. As I became a grandfather, I needed a larger car to pick up my granddaughters from school.
There is absolutely a difference between people like me who have only a passing interest in the electronics and mechanics of audio versus its sound. And even regarding its sound, it has taken me many decades to believe audio writers who talk about "air," "soundstage," etc. I have had to own equipment that can produce those sounds to buy into their existence.
I have had friends who upgrade their systems with better capcitors, etc. Even friends who have made their own equipment. I am jealous. I wish I had that apptitude. I am a writer and I listen to music while I write.
The Sonus Faber Olympica Novas are the first really good speakers I have ever owned. Prior to those, I had the GoldenEars as I mentioned. I thought they were wonderful until I had an inheritance which allowed me to purchase the Sonus Fabers, which are in a totally different class.
Anyway, I love music, and I like people who love music. Whether people's budgets are relatively low, as mine has mostly been, and they buy used or they make their own gear, I would much prefer to talk about the music itself. I go to hear live concerts a lot. My wife and I have tickets to the L.A. Phil and I go to hear jazz at the Soraya on the CSUN campus.
Probably one of the reasons that I would not buy from somebody who makes equipment is because I know so little about their workings. I've known a lot of electrical engineers who try to talk to me about how an amp or preamp works, and I get bored quickly.
So, I'm glad we understand one another. Basically, I think it's the music we both really love in the end. In that regard, I think everybody on all of these forums are brothers in arms, although we might spat from time to time.
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@audio-b-dog
I appreciate your post. Other than your aversion to garage-grown enterprises, I agree with you and your points are well-taken.
I am sorry for picking on Sonus Faber speakers. I am sure they sound very good. BMW makes good cars, too (though not transformative like in the 70s); a person can pick any model off the sales floor with the assurance that it's a solid choice that sends the right message to the world. There's nothing wrong with that.
But maybe I do have a soft spot for "down-and-dirty audiophiles", to borrow your excellent expression :)
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@devinplombier
Sorry if it sounded like I was dumping on @erik_squires. I thought I was agreeing with him, discussing all of the financial headaches that name-brand speakers have. Although, I have taken issue on another thread when someone called manufacturers like Sonus Faber greedy. But we won't get into economics.
@erik_squires said it took him nine years to build his speakers. The fact that he went from two-way to three-way is part of the same process that all speaker manufacturers go through. And I think he's right when he says that the parts might have cost him #1k but he'd have to sell them for 15 times that much. What's his labor worth? And his expertise that built a certain sound that pleased him and I'm sure others.
I have been an audiophile for at least a half century, and by the way, I have a pretty damned good ear. But we couldn't possibly resolve that issue with words. But to agree with you on some things you said, like about manufacturers going out of business. I purchased Apogee Slant 8 speakers just before they went out of business. I blew a ribbon and maybe could have gotten another one from a guy in Australia, but I didn't want to get into a garage-made part, especially from somebody halfway across the world.
Prior to my Sonus Fabers, I owned a pair of Golden Ear 2 speakers. I wasn't at the same financial level then. Anyway, a woofer blew and I found that Goden Ear had moved on to the 2+. So, I had to pay more money for a "trade-in" Yes, buying from a manufacturer and dealer can be risky, too.
But, on the other hand, I have owned VPI turntables, ARC preamps, and a McCormack DNA-1 amp, and all of them have supported me for decades. McCormack sold out to Conrad Johnson, but Steve was still around to upgrade my amp.
A slight digression--a friend of mine passed away and I had helped him 20+ years ago to buy a fairly expensive stereo. I inherited his stereo. He had a Hovland Radia amp which was made 20+ years ago, just about the time Hovland went out of business. Man, that is one damned good amp and I wanted to keep it. People on Audiogon said Amps wear out. Lucky for me, I live in L.A. and Bob Hovland, the maker and designer, is still around. I got him to check out my amp and say it was like new. Apparently he used military parts. But that probably bolsters your argument. People who make audio equipment love it and would be happy to stand behind it. Even a garage manufacturer. And I've known a few.
I think it's wonderful that a person would build their own speakers. I've had a few friends who have done it. I had a friend who built a very seductive preamp. To his ears it was the best preamp on earth and he wanted me to buy it. It was a warm-sounding preamp that many people would love, but when I compared it to my Conrad Johnson Premier 14, I realized that as wonderful as this home-made preamp sounded in the mids, its treble was etched and buried behind the bass.
So, everybody should build their own stuff. I think everybody should be passionate about something and become involved with it. But no, I just wouldn't buy anything made in someone's house or garage or whatever.
I could tell by your tone that you feel much superior to me, especially when you mentioned my paying for the expensive finish on my speakers, and questioned if I could even hear the difference between speakers. "This guy's not a down-and-dirty audiophile, he's bourgie," I heard you thinking. Well, man, I have owned everything under the sun. From $300 speakers powered by a very cheap receiver, to the typical NAD system with inexpensive JBL monitors. And I've alwlays loved every system I've had because it brought music to my ears. I just happen to love my present, more expensive system more.
Mostly, I'm 78 and don't have the energy I used to to run all over L.A., Ventura, and Orange counties comparing gear. The Sonus Faber was at a dealer near me who would offer services I needed, and I loved those speakers on first hearing. They fit my "house sound," so to speak. Musical, with a great soundstage, detail, etc., but not analytical. I did compare them to Vienna Acoustics and Magico speakers, which I found to be cold. When I helped my budy buy his expensive stereo 20 years ago, he bought the first Wilson Sashas, and I never liked those speakers. I thought they were dry and distant. At least give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm an audiophile who goes his own way and has an ear for what I like. Like @erik_squires who built the speaker of his dream.
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When you add the rear reflector to alter the frequency response, you block the rear wave so pretty much lose the dipole anyway.
Add this, but push it in a bit more...,
And go from this:
To this:
Or even this:
Look at all of that "detail" added. Now they can be run in a 2-way system without compromising the midrange.
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@toddalin
I don’t run them as a dipole. I think that the rear wave bouncing all around willi-nilli hurts imaging.
Mine are modified so that the rear wave is reflected back through the diaphragm totally changing the frequency response and adding detail like you can’t believe.
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I do, somewhat. It’s worth experimenting a lot more, imo. Over 4+ decades, having tried them freestanding, with different type wave guides, and other combinations, on the set up I use now, I have sound coming from just behind my shoulders on both sides, in a reguar seated position. Its about as close to 3D I’ve ever gotten and none of my soft/hard some high frequency builds could match it. I find the wave guides to be beamy and too focused for my taste, and less air around the sound stage. It’s all a matter of preference. ESS Professional Series had a horn and that produced its own type of sound as well, projecting out and around like a good horn does.
One guy had his AMT Great Heils suspended mid air with cables floating above the speaker. In the right room, I would have liked to try that once.
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In a DIY-context sitting in the listening chair/sofa and making filter adjustments on the fly on a laptop/tablet is a treat. From my chair though it’s not only about ease of use but as well the breadth of use of a DSP crossover that offers the user different means to actually improve on the sonic outcome vs. a passive filter and config.
Definitely not the case with Hypex. My Roon or miniDSP tools are a lot easier to hand tweak, but for these speakeers it took a lot of driver measurement and simulations, then testing for acoustic offsets. You can get something that plays with just basic filter settings, but precision speaker design takes a lot longer.
Still, the benefits of not ordering hyper expensive capacitors and coils, soldering them in and then deciding you want to make a change cannot be over stated.
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Devin,
Yes, those are what I had seen. These would be a piece of cake on a 3D printer assuming the selected filament has the strength to hold the weight.
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Beautiful work! Congratulations!
Building even a simple speaker involves a slew of challenges that need to be solved. These days it can be relatively straightforward with plenty of online help and solutions to known challenges and variables. There's a known path to get started for the first few miles of this speaker building journey, but it gets increasingly more difficult as the expectations of performance increase, and as we step farther away from that known path. Making a really good speaker is increasingly more difficult than just making one that's "acceptably good", and making a great speaker is incrementally more difficult again because there's no longer a known path. You're on your to own to test your problem solving skills, and to interpret how each step should be accomplished. The final step of making a great speaker that's profitable becomes uncharted territory and gets exponentially even more difficult, so kudos to those who successfully navigate that terrain!
The upside is that if you see the speaker development through (aka don't give up) and develop an aptitude for speaker building, whether profitable or not, a tremendous reward awaits those with a passion for this stuff. You can voice the speakers to your room and equipment, and to your liking, and you can do it without spending as much as buying someone else's design at retail prices. There's also a sense of pride that little else in this audio journey can offer.
My view is that speaker building a great way to gain some insights that nothing else can offer, and I'd encourage anyone with the desire to at least pursue it at some level.
@erik_squires - Well done Mr. Squires!
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@erik_squires wrote:
What I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, is that the crossover type did not matter. None of the alleged pluses/minuses about noise and distortion in one versus the other have appeared as I transitioned. So I call all the prior debates on A’gon on one versus the other more or less bunk.
At least that’s your experience and opinion, and it’s one that I don’t share. Being as it may the important part in the context of this thread of yours is that you’ve found the best way to configure your speakers, namely actively (for other reasons that you’ve specified).
A good crossover is a good crossover regardless of active or passive, but of course, the power and dynamic range benefits of active are present, but in a modest living room, where I probably never put out more than 20 watts I don’t know if it will ever matter.
I mean, yes, I can do the math and I can get 110 dB at 1m now, but ... will I care here? Probably not. [...]
As they say: headroom is your friend - with all that implies.
These are now my second major active project, and I can honestly say I don’t ever see myself making a passive crossover again. It’s too big of a PITA, with too expensive parts and too much soldering/wiring. The relative ease of designing with DSP crossovers has completely won me over with no real down sides.
In a DIY-context sitting in the listening chair/sofa and making filter adjustments on the fly on a laptop/tablet is a treat. From my chair though it’s not only about ease of use but as well the breadth of use of a DSP crossover that offers the user different means to actually improve on the sonic outcome vs. a passive filter and config.
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toddalin
The only thing I’ve found is this. Apparently it’s unavailable, and Pure Audio Project doesn’t answer emails.
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I don't run them as a dipole. I think that the rear wave bouncing all around willi-nilli hurts imaging.
Mine are modified so that the rear wave is reflected back through the diaphragm totally changing the frequency response and adding detail like you can't believe.
A couple pieces of foam placed behind takes care of any notable residual sound.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/im-fixing-a-hole-heil.1025205/
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@toddalin
Do you realize that a set of "REAL" ESS AMTs sell for $560/pr and maybe a couple times a year (LIKE RIGHT NOW) they will list them for $250/pr, both with the mounting kits? These factory sales go real fast and do not last!
Good to know but it would require a redesign, and honestly I don't have the right room for a dipole tweeter. Also, honestly, dome tweeters are just SO much better now than they were in the 1980's and 1990s, I don't feel compelled to stick with AMTs.... though I like mine a lot.
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I would not buy any audio gear from a guy who made it in his garage, no matter how good it sounded. If something went wrong in a month that guy might tell me to take a hike. Or, "Oh, yes, I’ll fix it. Just leave it here in the corner of my garage." Months go by, and you get the picture.
@audio-b-dog
Well, I think you are misunderstanding my point. I was not saying I should start a business, and you all should buy my DIY speakers. I was trying to say that running a profitable speaker business, or really ANY high-end audio business is hard as hell and I’m glad I don’t.
Of course you can’t sell a speaker for the cost of the parts, no one can do that. Even with books you can’t possibly sell them for the cost of the paper. I only meant to share how big that gap is, between parts cost and what you have to sell it for exactly because of what it takes to keep the shop lights running.
To yous your analogy however, given a choice between paying Oracle's per core licensing or installing PostgreSQL or MariaDB or even DuckDB for that matter and maintaining it myself I'm 100% not going to pay Oracle a dime.
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Nice.
I built my first speakers at 15 from Radio Shack parts. Since then I've built Linkwitz LX Minis and BFM Davids. I usually discourage people from DIY unless they have woodworking experience and tools because it usually winds up costing more than they thought it would. Clamps alone for a full range speaker build can cost over $100. Sandpaper, veneer, stain, capacitors, resistors, circuit boards, batting, magnets, grill cloth ... it just keeps adding up. And custom-built cabinets aren't cheap. But it certainly gives you a sense of accomplishment.
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There is a framework that adapts the Heil to a regular enclosure. I’ve seen it, and this wasn’t it, though it will give you an idea. It bolts to the two vertical bolts. Obviously it can be done and with a 3D printer, without much difficulty.
Shipping is high because they are heavy. But they would fit in a "If It Fits It Ships" box at about half of that. You just need to convince them of that. 
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@toddalin
Appreciate the shout-out to ESS AMTs. Just two nitpicks:
- Shipping is an additional $56 (to go only 2 states over)
- Their kits are for mounting tweeters on top of an enclosure. I can't find a mounting kit available that will let you integrate the AMT in a vertical baffle.
Definitely great tweeters.
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I would not buy any audio gear from a guy who made it in his garage, no matter how good it sounded. If something went wrong in a month that guy might tell me to take a hike. Or, "Oh, yes, I’ll fix it. Just leave it here in the corner of my garage." Months go by, and you get the picture.
My suggestion: if you want a deal, buy used. Off Audiogon or other used suppliers. You probably won’t get warranty support, but at least you’ll have a company to talk to if something goes wrong. And a place to buy parts if you need to fix something.
@audio-b-dog
Respectfully, this is nonsense.
High-end audio manufacturers go out of business all the time. What happens if "something goes wrong" then?
When they don’t go straight out of business, companies get bought out by new owners who want nothing to do with legacy products. What happens if "something goes wrong" then?
Even if none of the above happens to a company, their parts inventory isn’t inexhaustible. Many smallish speaker companies commission small runs of lightly customized drivers from reputable makers like Scanspeak. They’re based off regular Scanspeak models, but the off-the-shelf Scanspeak equivalent doesn’t fit and / or doesn’t sound right.
Try to get replacement ProAc drivers from ProAc for 20-year old ProAc speakers. Either they’re long since out of stock, or it’ll be $750 a pop. Not that you’ll ever know though, because their inept, useless US distributor will not return your calls.
You, in fact, stand a much better chance getting DIY speakers fixed, because the builder surely used off-the-shelf drivers and parts, and those remain in the supply chain for decades.
Some DIY speakers are built by folks with decades of experience, six-figure workshops and raging OCD. Their end product rivals almost anything Sonos Faber ever made, minus the lute shape and Miami Vice high-gloss epoxy varnish.
Then again, some DIY speakers are just dumpster-ready junk that sounds like trash. Or, they may be anything in between.
If you and your ears can’t tell the difference, then you’re clearly better off buying brand-name speakers from a dealer at full retail.
But don’t dump on DIY speakers in a thread that was started by a DIY builder to share his pride in the speakers he built with his own hands.
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"And while it is stellar, it is not 3x more stellar than a number of high end domes. So I’d probably give up on the $850 Mundorf, or even the smaller version which is ahem, only $450. The equivalent Beymas are also about the same."
Do you realize that a set of "REAL" ESS AMTs sell for $560/pr and maybe a couple times a year (LIKE RIGHT NOW) they will list them for $250/pr, both with the mounting kits? These factory sales go real fast and do not last!
I’ve modified mine adding wave guides and a rear reflector that completely changes the frequency response adding detail like you can't believe!
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I used to sell Hewlett Packard computer systems to the Navy. When a customer asked me what database to purchase, I said I hate the Oracle sales people and their company's tactics. I thought Ingram was a better database at a more reasonable price. But I suggested that they buy Oracle because I thought it would be around in the long run and Ingram would not. Databases need upgrades, service, etc. And getting off your database is as complicated as changing your operating system.
I just spent a lot of money on a pair of speakers made by Sonus Faber. When you buy speakers from a dealer, he takes 40% of the profit. Why pay for all of this overhead?
First of all, if you're going to buy a new pair of Sonus Faber (or any other brand name speaker) it's going to have to come from a dealer, who takes a certain amount of responsibility for the speaker.
But why the high retail price? Because when you purchase a decent speaker from a decent manufacturer, you are not just paying for the cost of supplies. Remember high-priced people have to put those speakers together. My speakers have wood cabinets in lute shape, and not just any fool off the street can do that kind of woodwork.
I purchased the Olympica Nova 5 speakers. Prior to the Olympica Novas, Sonus Faber sold Olympicas. The Nova stands for all the work they put into redesigning their new line. That means when you buy from a manufacturer, you're also paying for their research-and-design team. Etc., etc.
I would not buy any audio gear from a guy who made it in his garage, no matter how good it sounded. If something went wrong in a month that guy might tell me to take a hike. Or, "Oh, yes, I'll fix it. Just leave it here in the corner of my garage." Months go by, and you get the picture.
My suggestion: if you want a deal, buy used. Off Audiogon or other used suppliers. You probably won't get warranty support, but at least you'll have a company to talk to if something goes wrong. And a place to buy parts if you need to fix something.
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What is your impression of the sound from your speakers in their current, active configuration vs. their earlier, passive state? I’m assuming you only used the top section with the Scanspeak woofer/mid and Mundorf AMT unit passively (powered by the Luxman?) with the dual 10" Dayton woofer coming in later actively, but maybe you are still able to discern some overall differences here.
@phusis:
What I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, is that the crossover type did not matter. None of the alleged pluses/minuses about noise and distortion in one versus the other have appeared as I transitioned. So I call all the prior debates on A’gon on one versus the other more or less bunk. A good crossover is a good crossover regardless of active or passive, but of course, the power and dynamic range benefits of active are present, but in a modest living room, where I probably never put out more than 20 watts I don’t know if it will ever matter.
I mean, yes, I can do the math and I can get 110 dB at 1m now, but ... will I care here? Probably not. Also, the speaker now uses 4th order filters exclusively. Do these sound terrible? Or great? No, not really. They do the job they are intended to and I just don’t hear a problem or drastic change except maybe off axis. The low order filter debates also seem kind of meaningless to mea now.
I think one thing that kind of generally stands out is that I designed the top section in a different room, and never achieved the same level of warmth, depth or bass since moving into this home. The transition to active has not only added a lot of output but it’s allowed me to tune the entire speaker better for this home.
I was also able to fix an oversight I was aware of from the start. The low pass filter was too shallow, honestly, for great off-axis listening, which has now been fixed.
These are now my second major active project, and I can honestly say I don't ever see myself making a passive crossover again. It's too big of a PITA, with too expensive parts and too much soldering/wiring. The relative ease of designing with DSP crossovers has completely won me over with no real down sides.
The one thing I feel in my system I want to change though is I do think it would benefit from a juicy tube preamp to drive them. The loss of the Luxman integrated in the chain is something I feel when listening to music.
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@ticat
Do you already have ideas on any “improvements “ or design changes (just in case you had the crazy idea of doing it all over again)?
I have actually thought about this. Honestly my current speakers are too good for my room and better than I can hear, so I have no practical reason to change a thing, but thinking as a tinkerer I do. I'm not going to claim my speakers are better than any others, but that they make me extremely happy and if that for me, in my room, my own ears are probably not good enough to hear better. If I were to move to a home with a bigger/better living room that may change.
A Little History ...
An active three-way speaker was not ever the original plan. A high end two-way with subwoofer support was, so if I were to start with a blank piece of paper and re-do this speaker as a three way to start there are some changes I'd make.
First, I'd change the tweeter. It is excellent but when I purchased it around 2017 I might have been on the leading edge of it's adoption, and it was half the price (I think). Now, megabuck speaker makers use it, like this $85,000 Gryphon:
And while it is stellar, it is not 3x more stellar than a number of high end domes. So I'd probably give up on the $850 Mundorf, or even the smaller version which is ahem, only $450. The equivalent Beymas are also about the same. Per ChatGPT, Mundorf probably started AMT tweeter manufacturing around 2004. Not sure when this particular model was first released.
So, first thing that would go is the tweeter. A dome or ring radiator, probably not Be. Next, since I'd have to raise the crossover from 1.8 kHz to 2.5 kHz I'd consider downsizing the mid-woofer to a 5" to get the same horizontal dispersion. Further, the large size of my current top cabinet can be cut in half by the change in driver and using a sealed cabinet.
I think this would give me equivalent performance, with a much smaller cabinet and about 1/3rd the part cost. 
The woofers are really great. I could go with single, ported, but honestly I prefer output to extension, and for the money these are just really outstanding performers. I could spend 2x as much and I'd probably never hear a difference.
Lastly, if I was a truly rational man, and I'm not, I could probably also cut down on the plate amplifier power, and get the next size down. In my modest 14' x 20' living room, 600 watts per channel, in a tri-amped set up is serious overkill.
Of course, I just built these, in six months who knows how I would feel?
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@erik_squires wrote:
By the way, @phusis - If you are thinking of the RAAL ribbons, I highly recommend them. Never heard them but interacted with the designer via DIYaudio. Super knowledgeable, very friendly and helped me learn a great deal. I was lucky to get to learn from him.
I was particularly impressed by his command of his manufacturing. He makes custom transformers for buyers at scale which allowing a variety of impedance and low frequency options.
I’ve heard very good things about the RAAL’s. What I have coming up though is a Stage Accompany product, a dutch manufacturer, and their HF/MF driver is originally based on the Philips magnetostat RSQ8P which SA have then further developed into its current SA8535 state with a neodymium magnet.
The one sitting in the speakers I’m about to receive is an older version with a ferrite magnet weighing in at 20 pounds (SA8525). It’s a high sensitivity unit and horn loaded, which means the 1-4kHz range is boosted (which is of course compensated for in the built-in electronic XO). The essentially same, current version of the driver is also used non-horn loaded in their monitor series M57 and M59. A friend of mine is using a pair of M57’s outboard actively configured via DSP and sub augmented, whereas my upcoming pair of Stage Accompany speakers are actively configured with internal class A/B amps and an analogue, electronic crossover that is microprocessor controlled and protected. They will be sub-augmented as well with my tapped horns.
Come to think of it I actually do know the Mundorf AMT’s; another friend of mine is using the larger (i.e.: longer) version for HF-augmentation in a horn-loaded speaker system. Very nice sounding, and by that I mean they integrate with and complement the horn well, not drawing attention to themselves but aiding resolution and extension.
What is your impression of the sound from your speakers in their current, active configuration vs. their earlier, passive state? I’m assuming you only used the top section with the Scanspeak woofer/mid and Mundorf AMT unit passively (powered by the Luxman?) with the dual 10" Dayton woofer coming in later actively, but maybe you are still able to discern some overall differences here.
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@erik_squires
Bravo…
Nice job on the speakers. I have also used Solen for custom work (crossover design, parts and board build) with excellent results.
Do you already have ideas on any “improvements “ or design changes (just in case you had the crazy idea of doing it all over again)?
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@carousel - I think my next build, if I _ever_ do another would be a mid sized 2 way with compression driver and horn crossed to 12" woofers. Something inspired by the Altec Voice of the Theater or JBL speakers used behind the screen. With a low and single crossover point and high efficiency I think those would also make really good DIY builds.
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Interestingly, for my build, I also went three-way active. I did not try to do the cabinets myself. Woodworking is not already my hobby and I could not do a good enough (solid and robust and visually accurate) job myself without first putting in years of effort. It was still not cheap, as the Purifi drivers cost a pretty amount. In some ways I got the active crossovers for free. But first I had to pay for BACCH4Mac software, that happens to have an active crossover module built in. It is only fourth-order. But I have drivers that have pretty wide frequency overlaps. So it is fine. The 10-inch cross to the 6.5-inch around 200Hz. The 6.5-inch to the tweeters around 2500Hz. So the 6.5-inchers really cover the imaging.
I considered using broadbands with no tweeters. But when playing very loud in tests, I found broadbands to get stressed.
That said, there are some pieces that sound simply phenomenal with a broadband surrounded with a horn. With what I “saved”, maybe I can afford another system with horns for when they are better.
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@joeycastillo - Thank you for the kind words, I wouldn’t be at this point without continuous analysis of the drivers and speakers as a whole. Those crossover points and EQ settings aren’t going to make themselves!
I use the not so popular OmniMic. It's not free but so simple to use along with VituixCAD to simulate the DSP settings.
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Nice work OP
Congratulations, great work !
My 02 cents of advice is to use REW to do analyze and do graphical analysis of your good work!
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@samssa - Having fun and learning is the exact right reason to get into the hobby! :) No matter how big or small. The wrong reason to get into the hobby is to save money, I think.
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By the way, @phusis - If you are thinking of the RAAL ribbons, I highly recommend them. Never heard them but interacted with the designer via DIYaudio. Super knowledgeable, very friendly and helped me learn a great deal. I was lucky to get to learn from him.
I was particularly impressed by his command of his manufacturing. He makes custom transformers for buyers at scale which allowing a variety of impedance and low frequency options.
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Thanks for your kind words, @phusis
Yes, as far as I know the only drivers Mundorf makes are AMT’s, including some that are pretty long which could be used in line sources. I like _these_ AMTs but I’ve heard terrible AMTs too. I’m sure there are AMTs as good for a lot less than the Mundorfs now but not an expert. Beyma is a brand that I see recommended often, especially their horn loaded model.
The Dayton RSS265HF’s were recommended to me, and they were an excellent choice. About half the price of comparable ScanSpeak 10" aluminum woofers with very similar performance. I have no complaints about their distortion either. I used 2 x 10" because I wanted to keep the overall cabinet size down to just larger than the bookshelves. Also, really wanted to put them as close to the floor as possible. The distance between the top woofer and mid-woofer is negligible at 250 Hz.
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@erik_squires --
Great stuff, and very nice build quality all around.
Above all, they don’t sound like a commercial speaker. You know the feeling when you listen to an all B&W or Focal or McIntosh speakers and feel like you could recognize them in any room? You can’t really tell mine. They lack treble "character." They sound effortless without the excess air of say some ribbons as well.
Those tweeters are AMT’s, right? I have a pair of used, active speakers soon to be implemented in my setup with a "ribbon" or rather planar magnetic tweeter/midrange driver (if all goes well with the intention of replacing my EV’s), and having heard the same driver over sibling models I find your description to match my impression of these as well; something appears to be missing initially, but over time it becomes clear what’s really lacking is a combination of coloration, smear, strain and other "effects" heard from other types of drivers. There’s also limited vertical dispersion, and so no boundary "help" to speak of from ceiling and floor, which may contribute to their overall imprinting.
The 10" Dayton woofer is a cool looking driver. I once considered a 15" version of this driver for a front loaded horn subwoofer, but eventually wound up with a different design and driver.
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I'm impressed.
I have built speakers starting in the '70s. All of them have been fun but none I could call reference. I built electrostatics once and was quit impressed. It has all been fun and I learned a lot about speakers, boxes and crossovers.
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@deep_333 - I decline. Infer it from the context or not. :)
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Define "REFERENCE" speaker
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@grannyring - Thank you!! I’ve come a long way. When I was in my late teens my dream was to afford a megalithic "reference" speaker system. An Apogee or Infinity RS... all very expensive, all very large... then at some point I realized I was enjoying my hobby a lot more by making things than buying them. The excitement wasn’t unboxing speakers but unboxing parts!!
So, yes, I do enjoy knowing I built what I listen to, that I really like the end results but also that I had a lot of fun putting it together.
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Nice job on the build! It must be even more enjoyable listening knowing they are your build and design.
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To avoid a Commercial Designed and Marketed route for buying a speaker and taking the route where the individual is to have a influence on the design selected and methodology for the build. Also has a furthering of the interesting side of this as the method.
In a Commercial Design, a Part to be used in a Xover as seen in the Link can easily become a 5 x the cost part, if ever selected for the model.
The Part when part of a DIY Route BOM is not going to have any additional cost unless one has chosen to pay for the Xover to be assembled.
Part's like the ones in the Link assist with attaining the highest levels of Sound Quality. I have been directed to these parts, as being highly recommended by individuals I know who are involved in having Speakers produced for them which have adopted these components.
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mresist-mreu30.html
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Hey @ozzy62 - I think you are thinking of a different model. This one is what I see used for Qualio but I _think_ this is what the kit used and this is what I used.
Notice the rise in response near the bottom of the Qualio. If not fully damped that resonance may be what you were hearing. The kit and what I use don’t have that peaky bottom around 1,500 Hz.
Having said that, I’ve not heard it in person. I have no real idea what you are hearing, but I can say that neither in the Mudorf kit nor in my speakers is there a trace of harshness, and I did measure the distortion at high output levels and at least in mine, there’s very little at any listenable output. Also, the model I used has a lower crossover point, and much higher power handling. It was not NEARLY this expensive when I purchased though.
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Worth noting that in terms of driver surface area these speakers are similar to a B&W 800 D series speaker, which has dual 10's with a 6" mid. Also similar sensitivity, but tri-amped so doesn't quite apply. Not going to make any comparisons about sound at all, just in case you are wondering about output capabilities, it has it in spades. A little lighter though, combined the top and bottom units are "only" about 130 lbs. As I mentioned, these are deliberately bass limited due to sealed construction, but it works out better for my room.
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My old Qualio IQs used that Mundorf tweeter. It was airy and detailed, but could be harsh and bright on many recordings. Trying to tame it with the supplied resistors only closed in the sound, but didn't tame what was wrong. When it was good, it was very good....well, you know the rest of the story.
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In case anyone is interested here's a beauty shot of the 10" woofers.
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@parkergetdean - I like the very large one’s driven by their very expensive amps a lot more than I like the small floor standers.
I should point out that some Be tweeters are MUCH better than back then. The Magico Be tweeters are absolutely stunning, but tuned a little cool for me. Still, absolutely glass smooth. That was in large part why I chose to use the same ScanSpeak motor, but with a textile dome, for my center.
I appreciate the positive comments a great deal!! I wan to emphasize that I don''t personally want you to agree with my tastes. Convincing others that they should listen to music or movies like I do is never my intention. The joy of building and learning and getting what I personally want however has been priceless. I'm just really glad if I get to share that with others who appreciate it.
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you sure are a perfectionist Erik and a master of this field.
I do not like the Vandersteen sound. I think it's flat, lifeless to my ears. But maybe it wasn't setup properly (3 different homes)
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Thinking about this now, I think part of what sent me down this path was a 2-way Mundorf kit that I heard ages ago. The theme was to do an all Germany build, so the crossover and Tweeter were Mundorf but the mid-bass was a white ceramic Accuton. Small unit with stepped baffle.
I was not then and am still not a fan of the Accutons. They technically turn me on so much but just never get into their sound, on anything. The tweeter however was absolutely exceptional. Very transparent without actually sounding like Be's at the time would, which is, noticeable.
Over time I’ve also come to realize how much I love composite cones. Focal’s W sandwich, resin/fiber glass, etc. all sounded very good to me, even when in inexpensive Peerless 5" models. The ScanSpeak sliced paper cones were an excellent example. Two paper layers with resin in between and slices to prevent radial resonances. I’m not sure if I had heard them in Wilsons or not, but they were reasonably affordable and went deep in the right cabinet.
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Beautiful speakers guys. Congratulations! I wish I had the talent to do it. I tried making a pair back in high school with a friend that got components from France. He ended finishing his and they looked rough and sounded worse. At least he got further than I did. Speaker builders we were not. Enjoy!
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Cool stuff, Erik! Not many people have the technical expertise to plan such an endeavor plus a mechanical aptitude to build it. I love to plan. Building? Not so much!
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