Any pics of the finished project?
What building my own speakers has taught me...
Hi Everyone,
After 8 years or so I have finally finished my "reference" speaker system. I say eight years because what started as a small, high end 2-way has morphed into a 3-way active system. Really happy with the results for myself... but I wanted to step back a little and reflect on the audio industry right now.
First, I’m not here to convince you to DIY your next pair unless you NEED to build something. And I’m not here to rail against the high price of gear, which does have some merit. Mostly what I think about is how difficult it really is to make a business selling audio gear, and that I’m actually SHOCKED at how many companies attempt to do so, and even more when they thrive.
Pricing out all the components in my speakers I come to a total parts cost. Lets say it’s $1,000. It could be $10, the actual amount doesn’t matter, but pretend it’s $1k. If I try to imagine "How would I take this product to market?" I simply can’t get to a selling price under 15 to 20 times manufacturing cost.
At the same time, the cost of the average "reference" speaker over the last 20 years has really skyrocketed, while the audio enthusiast market has dwindled. Then along came HDMI whose ridiculous licensing and technical requirements seems to at least have been partially responsible for Meridian and Theta Digital dwindling from the market.
I can’t imagine how hard it is for anyone besides say Sony or Harman or Samsung to be in the market for audio gear. Increased costs, high competition, dwindling consumers..... are we in a bubble or does every generation think "this is it, this is the end of high end audio?"
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Building Speakers is a challenge, but a challenge that comes with a lot of support, when certain routes to achieving the selected design is taken. There is such a lot to be attained if there is a careful approach. I am using two different Cabinet Speaker designs and each are different as their fundamental. Each are both able to really Impress. Both are from a Self Build background and both are able to be compared to owned ESL Speakers. I really enjoy my options on how sound is able to be formed and the End Sound offered from all three designs. I have not got a favourite from the current owned speakers. I do encourage others to take the time to learn option available to them.
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Hey @ozzy62 - Didn't take many, living room is too messy, but here's the front. The drivers are Mundorf, Scanspeak and Dayton. The back of the woofer section holds a 3-way, 600W plate amp by Hypex, which also has the crossover.
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Thank you all!! I did none of the woodworking I'm afraid. The bottom cabinets came from Solen.ca, and the top units from from Lee Taylor whom I believe has retired. Both ordered custom based on my drawings and specifications. Parts, measurements, and crossovers all done by me though. Here's the back:
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@erik_squires very nice! Do you have a build thread somewhere? |
@devinplombier - Kind of. I have a couple of blog posts and a thread at DIYaudio. https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2025/09/powereing-woofer-mark-i.html Here's a post on the upper cabinet. Please note the original crossover that I used then has been completely replaced by the Hypex DSP. https://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2017/12/snr-1-two-way-high-end-diy-monitor.html The DIYaudio thread : |
Please note that this design was not originally going to be a 3-way. If I were to do this again, I would have made the upper section sealed to start with, which would make it significantly smaller, but I’d keep all the drivers as-is. The 6.5" mid-woofer is crossed to the tweeter around 1,800 Hz so despite the large "midrange" I’m using the off axis measurements are essentially perfect. Well, I say I'd keep them the same, but the tweeter is about 80% more expensive than when I bought it, while the 6.5" and woofers all cost around $200 each. I think what I'd do if having to build today is use a Scan Speak air-circ dome instead, like I did in my center. or as Troels sometimes suggests, the excellent Discovery series tweeter instead. |
I’m too old to start DYI from scratch to reach such a high sonic level. |
Not to take anything from the Speaker Build, eric stated " I did none of the woodworking I'm afraid ". Producing a DIY Speaker does not have to be absolutely hand on, there are wonderful speakers available to be produced, where the DIY element is that the individual decides on a design that already has the support for it in place. A Cutting List for Cabinet Parts and an assembly drawing with photo evidence of the methodology used. This allows for a CNC Shop to produce the Board Material cut to a very very accurate dimension. Assembly can be DIY endeavour, or a experienced Cabinet Maker can be used, who may also Veneer the Cabinet as well. Other methods for finished coatings on the Cabinet can also be considered. Drivers are already selected through the design where there might also be a option as a upgrade created by the designer as the Speaker evolves through being in service. Xovers can be similar to Drivers, where the design is in place and can evolve as an upgrade. The Builders design choice is for an internal or external Xover. Such a route to building a Speaker is not a cheat and will create a substantial speaker, easily competing with models costing much much more. Note: Speaker Producing Companies are all exposed to the dame requirements as outlined above, but also have much harder constraints on their budget. If the DIY BOM for a Speaker is $3K-$4K, certain brands in the commercial sector are most likely using a BOM of $800 - $1200 to retail at such a cost of $3-4K, I would also suspect for some brands at a $1.2K BOM speakers are seen retailing near $8K. The DIY BOM at $3-4K can create a Speaker that easily falls into the retail world at $12K - $20K. A Friend has purchased a used item Troels Graveson Speaker, which was built by Troels and imported to the UK. These Speakers have made such an impression, much more expensive commercial sector speakers are superseded. Following remuneration from the sale of the commercial sector speakers, there was a purchase easily covered by the sale of the other speakers and plenty left to fill the coffer for my friend. My own take on the demo's is that the Speakers are the best heard in the system and maybe the best heard by myself. A few demo's across a few systems would confirm this, but that option is not available.
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I don’t actually mean to sell anyone on the idea of DIY, but if you are a closeted would-be builder, there are great kits, all included, at a variety of price and performance points. @jsd52756 - You did, you are welcome. I’m sure you’ll be pleased. @mahgister - Thank you, but honestly I’ve gotten lucky and gotten good advice in part selection. @parkergetdean - The best I can do is probably tell you what I like to listen to and what I don’t. At shows, my two consistently favorite rooms are Fritz and Vandersteens. I also often like the top end Monitor Audio speakers. If you have heard these you’ll know they are extended and musical and natural but also could be considered too laid back by some. They do not excel in jump factor either. Right now they are tuned a little neutrally for movies but I use a little EQ for Roon to make the music a little deeper. Above all, they don’t sound like a commercial speaker. You know the feeling when you listen to an all B&W or Focal or McIntosh speakers and feel like you could recognize them in any room? You can’t really tell mine. They lack treble "character." They sound effortless without the excess air of say some ribbons as well. Another couple of characteristics which bugged me personally from mega buck speakers is either excess reed sounds or excess throat sounds, which shows up especially with a singer like Diana Krall. Her piano sounds soft and delicate, but not amplified, it just sounds like it’s in the room, and you can hear her pedal work as well as the notes without either being exaggerated. In Patricia Barber’s Cafe Blue (which despite being overused for demos is NOT musically her best album, listen to Live at the Green Mill) there’s a finger snapping at the start of a track, and yes it sounds natural, and present but no it does not bite you. With movies, despite only having 5.1 speakers, it’s immersive and things that fly over sound like they fly over! There’s a separate Hsu sub for the Low Frequency Effects, and listening to Battle Los Angeles there’s a scene where our heroes to be are in a hellicopter getting shelled and you FEEL the helicopter drop from underneath you when a nearby shell explodes. This is aided in large part by my first active speaker, the center channel kind of sort of inspired by Troels designs. Mine is physically much smaller, thanks to using a sealed cabinet and active, but his ideas for driver selection got me started.
One thing I really liked when I was done was that the 4th order crossover really provided me with superb vertical and horizontal dispersion, making it an excellent experience no matter where I was in the room. In converting my main speakers I wanted to bring that 24 db/octave goodness over. All told, I have about 1,500 watts of power in 3 triamped speakers in my home theater, plus the sub. That’s a huge amount of power and surface area for my pitiful little living room! If i did the math right, I can get about 110 dB of sustained volume from the bass through the mid range at 1 meter. |
Beautiful speakers guys. Congratulations! I wish I had the talent to do it. I tried making a pair back in high school with a friend that got components from France. He ended finishing his and they looked rough and sounded worse. At least he got further than I did. Speaker builders we were not. Enjoy! |
Thinking about this now, I think part of what sent me down this path was a 2-way Mundorf kit that I heard ages ago. The theme was to do an all Germany build, so the crossover and Tweeter were Mundorf but the mid-bass was a white ceramic Accuton. Small unit with stepped baffle.
I was not then and am still not a fan of the Accutons. They technically turn me on so much but just never get into their sound, on anything. The tweeter however was absolutely exceptional. Very transparent without actually sounding like Be's at the time would, which is, noticeable. Over time I’ve also come to realize how much I love composite cones. Focal’s W sandwich, resin/fiber glass, etc. all sounded very good to me, even when in inexpensive Peerless 5" models. The ScanSpeak sliced paper cones were an excellent example. Two paper layers with resin in between and slices to prevent radial resonances. I’m not sure if I had heard them in Wilsons or not, but they were reasonably affordable and went deep in the right cabinet. |
@parkergetdean - I like the very large one’s driven by their very expensive amps a lot more than I like the small floor standers. I should point out that some Be tweeters are MUCH better than back then. The Magico Be tweeters are absolutely stunning, but tuned a little cool for me. Still, absolutely glass smooth. That was in large part why I chose to use the same ScanSpeak motor, but with a textile dome, for my center. I appreciate the positive comments a great deal!! I wan to emphasize that I don''t personally want you to agree with my tastes. Convincing others that they should listen to music or movies like I do is never my intention. The joy of building and learning and getting what I personally want however has been priceless. I'm just really glad if I get to share that with others who appreciate it. |
My old Qualio IQs used that Mundorf tweeter. It was airy and detailed, but could be harsh and bright on many recordings. Trying to tame it with the supplied resistors only closed in the sound, but didn't tame what was wrong. When it was good, it was very good....well, you know the rest of the story. |
Worth noting that in terms of driver surface area these speakers are similar to a B&W 800 D series speaker, which has dual 10's with a 6" mid. Also similar sensitivity, but tri-amped so doesn't quite apply. Not going to make any comparisons about sound at all, just in case you are wondering about output capabilities, it has it in spades. A little lighter though, combined the top and bottom units are "only" about 130 lbs. As I mentioned, these are deliberately bass limited due to sealed construction, but it works out better for my room. |
Hey @ozzy62 - I think you are thinking of a different model. This one is what I see used for Qualio but I _think_ this is what the kit used and this is what I used. Notice the rise in response near the bottom of the Qualio. If not fully damped that resonance may be what you were hearing. The kit and what I use don’t have that peaky bottom around 1,500 Hz. Having said that, I’ve not heard it in person. I have no real idea what you are hearing, but I can say that neither in the Mudorf kit nor in my speakers is there a trace of harshness, and I did measure the distortion at high output levels and at least in mine, there’s very little at any listenable output. Also, the model I used has a lower crossover point, and much higher power handling. It was not NEARLY this expensive when I purchased though. |
To avoid a Commercial Designed and Marketed route for buying a speaker and taking the route where the individual is to have a influence on the design selected and methodology for the build. Also has a furthering of the interesting side of this as the method. In a Commercial Design, a Part to be used in a Xover as seen in the Link can easily become a 5 x the cost part, if ever selected for the model. The Part when part of a DIY Route BOM is not going to have any additional cost unless one has chosen to pay for the Xover to be assembled. Part's like the ones in the Link assist with attaining the highest levels of Sound Quality. I have been directed to these parts, as being highly recommended by individuals I know who are involved in having Speakers produced for them which have adopted these components. https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mresist-mreu30.html |
@grannyring - Thank you!! I’ve come a long way. When I was in my late teens my dream was to afford a megalithic "reference" speaker system. An Apogee or Infinity RS... all very expensive, all very large... then at some point I realized I was enjoying my hobby a lot more by making things than buying them. The excitement wasn’t unboxing speakers but unboxing parts!! So, yes, I do enjoy knowing I built what I listen to, that I really like the end results but also that I had a lot of fun putting it together. |
@deep_333 - I decline. Infer it from the context or not. :) |
Great stuff, and very nice build quality all around.
Those tweeters are AMT’s, right? I have a pair of used, active speakers soon to be implemented in my setup with a "ribbon" or rather planar magnetic tweeter/midrange driver (if all goes well with the intention of replacing my EV’s), and having heard the same driver over sibling models I find your description to match my impression of these as well; something appears to be missing initially, but over time it becomes clear what’s really lacking is a combination of coloration, smear, strain and other "effects" heard from other types of drivers. There’s also limited vertical dispersion, and so no boundary "help" to speak of from ceiling and floor, which may contribute to their overall imprinting. The 10" Dayton woofer is a cool looking driver. I once considered a 15" version of this driver for a front loaded horn subwoofer, but eventually wound up with a different design and driver. |
Thanks for your kind words, @phusis Yes, as far as I know the only drivers Mundorf makes are AMT’s, including some that are pretty long which could be used in line sources. I like _these_ AMTs but I’ve heard terrible AMTs too. I’m sure there are AMTs as good for a lot less than the Mundorfs now but not an expert. Beyma is a brand that I see recommended often, especially their horn loaded model. The Dayton RSS265HF’s were recommended to me, and they were an excellent choice. About half the price of comparable ScanSpeak 10" aluminum woofers with very similar performance. I have no complaints about their distortion either. I used 2 x 10" because I wanted to keep the overall cabinet size down to just larger than the bookshelves. Also, really wanted to put them as close to the floor as possible. The distance between the top woofer and mid-woofer is negligible at 250 Hz. |
By the way, @phusis - If you are thinking of the RAAL ribbons, I highly recommend them. Never heard them but interacted with the designer via DIYaudio. Super knowledgeable, very friendly and helped me learn a great deal. I was lucky to get to learn from him. I was particularly impressed by his command of his manufacturing. He makes custom transformers for buyers at scale which allowing a variety of impedance and low frequency options. |
@samssa - Having fun and learning is the exact right reason to get into the hobby! :) No matter how big or small. The wrong reason to get into the hobby is to save money, I think. |
@joeycastillo - Thank you for the kind words, I wouldn’t be at this point without continuous analysis of the drivers and speakers as a whole. Those crossover points and EQ settings aren’t going to make themselves! I use the not so popular OmniMic. It's not free but so simple to use along with VituixCAD to simulate the DSP settings. |
Interestingly, for my build, I also went three-way active. I did not try to do the cabinets myself. Woodworking is not already my hobby and I could not do a good enough (solid and robust and visually accurate) job myself without first putting in years of effort. It was still not cheap, as the Purifi drivers cost a pretty amount. In some ways I got the active crossovers for free. But first I had to pay for BACCH4Mac software, that happens to have an active crossover module built in. It is only fourth-order. But I have drivers that have pretty wide frequency overlaps. So it is fine. The 10-inch cross to the 6.5-inch around 200Hz. The 6.5-inch to the tweeters around 2500Hz. So the 6.5-inchers really cover the imaging. I considered using broadbands with no tweeters. But when playing very loud in tests, I found broadbands to get stressed. That said, there are some pieces that sound simply phenomenal with a broadband surrounded with a horn. With what I “saved”, maybe I can afford another system with horns for when they are better. |
@carousel - I think my next build, if I _ever_ do another would be a mid sized 2 way with compression driver and horn crossed to 12" woofers. Something inspired by the Altec Voice of the Theater or JBL speakers used behind the screen. With a low and single crossover point and high efficiency I think those would also make really good DIY builds. |
@erik_squires wrote:
I’ve heard very good things about the RAAL’s. What I have coming up though is a Stage Accompany product, a dutch manufacturer, and their HF/MF driver is originally based on the Philips magnetostat RSQ8P which SA have then further developed into its current SA8535 state with a neodymium magnet. The one sitting in the speakers I’m about to receive is an older version with a ferrite magnet weighing in at 20 pounds (SA8525). It’s a high sensitivity unit and horn loaded, which means the 1-4kHz range is boosted (which is of course compensated for in the built-in electronic XO). The essentially same, current version of the driver is also used non-horn loaded in their monitor series M57 and M59. A friend of mine is using a pair of M57’s outboard actively configured via DSP and sub augmented, whereas my upcoming pair of Stage Accompany speakers are actively configured with internal class A/B amps and an analogue, electronic crossover that is microprocessor controlled and protected. They will be sub-augmented as well with my tapped horns. Come to think of it I actually do know the Mundorf AMT’s; another friend of mine is using the larger (i.e.: longer) version for HF-augmentation in a horn-loaded speaker system. Very nice sounding, and by that I mean they integrate with and complement the horn well, not drawing attention to themselves but aiding resolution and extension. What is your impression of the sound from your speakers in their current, active configuration vs. their earlier, passive state? I’m assuming you only used the top section with the Scanspeak woofer/mid and Mundorf AMT unit passively (powered by the Luxman?) with the dual 10" Dayton woofer coming in later actively, but maybe you are still able to discern some overall differences here. |
I have actually thought about this. Honestly my current speakers are too good for my room and better than I can hear, so I have no practical reason to change a thing, but thinking as a tinkerer I do. I'm not going to claim my speakers are better than any others, but that they make me extremely happy and if that for me, in my room, my own ears are probably not good enough to hear better. If I were to move to a home with a bigger/better living room that may change. A Little History ... An active three-way speaker was not ever the original plan. A high end two-way with subwoofer support was, so if I were to start with a blank piece of paper and re-do this speaker as a three way to start there are some changes I'd make. First, I'd change the tweeter. It is excellent but when I purchased it around 2017 I might have been on the leading edge of it's adoption, and it was half the price (I think). Now, megabuck speaker makers use it, like this $85,000 Gryphon:
And while it is stellar, it is not 3x more stellar than a number of high end domes. So I'd probably give up on the $850 Mundorf, or even the smaller version which is ahem, only $450. The equivalent Beymas are also about the same. Per ChatGPT, Mundorf probably started AMT tweeter manufacturing around 2004. Not sure when this particular model was first released. So, first thing that would go is the tweeter. A dome or ring radiator, probably not Be. Next, since I'd have to raise the crossover from 1.8 kHz to 2.5 kHz I'd consider downsizing the mid-woofer to a 5" to get the same horizontal dispersion. Further, the large size of my current top cabinet can be cut in half by the change in driver and using a sealed cabinet. I think this would give me equivalent performance, with a much smaller cabinet and about 1/3rd the part cost. The woofers are really great. I could go with single, ported, but honestly I prefer output to extension, and for the money these are just really outstanding performers. I could spend 2x as much and I'd probably never hear a difference. Lastly, if I was a truly rational man, and I'm not, I could probably also cut down on the plate amplifier power, and get the next size down. In my modest 14' x 20' living room, 600 watts per channel, in a tri-amped set up is serious overkill. Of course, I just built these, in six months who knows how I would feel? |
@phusis: What I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, is that the crossover type did not matter. None of the alleged pluses/minuses about noise and distortion in one versus the other have appeared as I transitioned. So I call all the prior debates on A’gon on one versus the other more or less bunk. A good crossover is a good crossover regardless of active or passive, but of course, the power and dynamic range benefits of active are present, but in a modest living room, where I probably never put out more than 20 watts I don’t know if it will ever matter. I mean, yes, I can do the math and I can get 110 dB at 1m now, but ... will I care here? Probably not. Also, the speaker now uses 4th order filters exclusively. Do these sound terrible? Or great? No, not really. They do the job they are intended to and I just don’t hear a problem or drastic change except maybe off axis. The low order filter debates also seem kind of meaningless to mea now. I think one thing that kind of generally stands out is that I designed the top section in a different room, and never achieved the same level of warmth, depth or bass since moving into this home. The transition to active has not only added a lot of output but it’s allowed me to tune the entire speaker better for this home. I was also able to fix an oversight I was aware of from the start. The low pass filter was too shallow, honestly, for great off-axis listening, which has now been fixed. These are now my second major active project, and I can honestly say I don't ever see myself making a passive crossover again. It's too big of a PITA, with too expensive parts and too much soldering/wiring. The relative ease of designing with DSP crossovers has completely won me over with no real down sides. The one thing I feel in my system I want to change though is I do think it would benefit from a juicy tube preamp to drive them. The loss of the Luxman integrated in the chain is something I feel when listening to music. |
I used to sell Hewlett Packard computer systems to the Navy. When a customer asked me what database to purchase, I said I hate the Oracle sales people and their company's tactics. I thought Ingram was a better database at a more reasonable price. But I suggested that they buy Oracle because I thought it would be around in the long run and Ingram would not. Databases need upgrades, service, etc. And getting off your database is as complicated as changing your operating system. I just spent a lot of money on a pair of speakers made by Sonus Faber. When you buy speakers from a dealer, he takes 40% of the profit. Why pay for all of this overhead? First of all, if you're going to buy a new pair of Sonus Faber (or any other brand name speaker) it's going to have to come from a dealer, who takes a certain amount of responsibility for the speaker. But why the high retail price? Because when you purchase a decent speaker from a decent manufacturer, you are not just paying for the cost of supplies. Remember high-priced people have to put those speakers together. My speakers have wood cabinets in lute shape, and not just any fool off the street can do that kind of woodwork. I purchased the Olympica Nova 5 speakers. Prior to the Olympica Novas, Sonus Faber sold Olympicas. The Nova stands for all the work they put into redesigning their new line. That means when you buy from a manufacturer, you're also paying for their research-and-design team. Etc., etc. I would not buy any audio gear from a guy who made it in his garage, no matter how good it sounded. If something went wrong in a month that guy might tell me to take a hike. Or, "Oh, yes, I'll fix it. Just leave it here in the corner of my garage." Months go by, and you get the picture. My suggestion: if you want a deal, buy used. Off Audiogon or other used suppliers. You probably won't get warranty support, but at least you'll have a company to talk to if something goes wrong. And a place to buy parts if you need to fix something.
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"And while it is stellar, it is not 3x more stellar than a number of high end domes. So I’d probably give up on the $850 Mundorf, or even the smaller version which is ahem, only $450. The equivalent Beymas are also about the same."
Do you realize that a set of "REAL" ESS AMTs sell for $560/pr and maybe a couple times a year (LIKE RIGHT NOW) they will list them for $250/pr, both with the mounting kits? These factory sales go real fast and do not last!
I’ve modified mine adding wave guides and a rear reflector that completely changes the frequency response adding detail like you can't believe!
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Respectfully, this is nonsense. High-end audio manufacturers go out of business all the time. What happens if "something goes wrong" then? When they don’t go straight out of business, companies get bought out by new owners who want nothing to do with legacy products. What happens if "something goes wrong" then? Even if none of the above happens to a company, their parts inventory isn’t inexhaustible. Many smallish speaker companies commission small runs of lightly customized drivers from reputable makers like Scanspeak. They’re based off regular Scanspeak models, but the off-the-shelf Scanspeak equivalent doesn’t fit and / or doesn’t sound right. Try to get replacement ProAc drivers from ProAc for 20-year old ProAc speakers. Either they’re long since out of stock, or it’ll be $750 a pop. Not that you’ll ever know though, because their inept, useless US distributor will not return your calls. You, in fact, stand a much better chance getting DIY speakers fixed, because the builder surely used off-the-shelf drivers and parts, and those remain in the supply chain for decades. Some DIY speakers are built by folks with decades of experience, six-figure workshops and raging OCD. Their end product rivals almost anything Sonos Faber ever made, minus the lute shape and Miami Vice high-gloss epoxy varnish. Then again, some DIY speakers are just dumpster-ready junk that sounds like trash. Or, they may be anything in between. If you and your ears can’t tell the difference, then you’re clearly better off buying brand-name speakers from a dealer at full retail. But don’t dump on DIY speakers in a thread that was started by a DIY builder to share his pride in the speakers he built with his own hands.
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Appreciate the shout-out to ESS AMTs. Just two nitpicks: - Shipping is an additional $56 (to go only 2 states over) - Their kits are for mounting tweeters on top of an enclosure. I can't find a mounting kit available that will let you integrate the AMT in a vertical baffle. Definitely great tweeters. |
There is a framework that adapts the Heil to a regular enclosure. I’ve seen it, and this wasn’t it, though it will give you an idea. It bolts to the two vertical bolts. Obviously it can be done and with a 3D printer, without much difficulty.
Shipping is high because they are heavy. But they would fit in a "If It Fits It Ships" box at about half of that. You just need to convince them of that.
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