Very interesting. Is there any other name for this material ?
US source of Panzerholtz?
Wanting to purchase enough for a couple plinths... one for my Technics SP10 MK3 and the other to finish a Lenco PTP project.
Thanks,
Rick
Thanks,
Rick
47 responses Add your response
BKB Industrial in Canada is the NA distributor: http://bkbindustrial.ca/ They sell it under the brand name Delignit B15 and B25. |
It is difficult to pack this stuff, it weighs a ton, for it’s relative volume. The cheapest is smaller cuts, stacked, and sort of ’shrunk’ down to a smaller cubish shaped type parcel that can be skidded. sheets cut in half ... thus nearest to your most useful intended sizes - for your finishing cuts. Plan ahead! Ye old cut once thingie. Meaning, the shipping costs per cubic inch/cm of material...can only really be mitigated when you ship a small skid’s worth of it. As, by the time you get to a skid shipment..., you are in a different shipping world. One of volume, not mass. Think of it as attempting to ship granite slate. FYI, the 15 and the 25 numbers, refer to the thickness of the layers, in any given thickness of sheet. the 25 has more layers per given cm/in of thickness of sheet vs the 15. http://digitalexhibitions.com/PANZERHOIZ%20B15%20B25.pdf They sometimes have bits of offcuts, but really, they generally sell only to ’power users’ of the product and that is direct shipping (from the EU, on skids) with no in between visit (on the ground) of the shipment at the the distributor’s physical location. ie, when you call them, they expect something akin to a 10-20-100 sheet order, sent direct, by boat, on skids - from the EU to you. Due to the mass and awkwardness of this product, it is not really all that easy to have bits laying about to ship around the continent via common shippers. Shipping and packaging costs make short work of that idea. Extra FYI: it was originally designed as a bullet proof material for the interior of Panzer tanks, and is still useful for that original intended purpose. Buying a skid of it might get your name put on a list somewhere. |
It is fairly miserable to CNC, as well. A bit eating monstrosity it is... with a very narrow range of functional feed and rpm ranges. Delrin is similarly miserable to CNC. One of the worst combinations, it is: Your sharpest finest bits, with the highest level of bit wear, in the most difficult to achieve ’quality result’ cutting set up. Instantaneous flow of the moment.. feed rate and rpm, stepover, etc, all become critical in the given moment --and the range is small. So you have to change everything in the cutting program to reflect this. Mastering a quality CNC’d shape in panzerholz is an achievement. |
Dear chakster, How can different name change the properties of whatever material? Each language has different names for, say, the same objects. That is why logician state that names have only referential function. Then there is the logical rule that names miss predicative function. That is to say that names don't say anything about is bearer. Sorry but I need for 66 times , as you pointed out, use as example Vienna. Whatever is true about Vienna is also true about Wien, Wenen , Bec, etc. names. This is called ''substitution salva veritate''. Each of those names refer to the same city. |
Dear chakster, There are to many objects in our universe. We don't have names for each of them. So we invented the so called ''descriptive names''. Say ''iron horse'' for the first seen locomotive. Those are like ''x +2''. We know that this is about numbers but we can't know which one. We need some name in '' x position'' in order to know which number is meant. Those are called ''functional expressions'' because they entail an variable (x) . So such expressions are not complete. They need a name in place of the variable x to get determinate meaning. ''The teacher of Alexander'', ''the author of Das Kapital'' , etc. Those who know that Aristoteles was teacher of Alexander will ''feel in the gape'' and those who know that Marx wrote the mentioned book will complete the descriptive name with the ''argument'' Marx. So you are referring to ''descriptive names'' which entail only a part of an predicate. The other part needs addition with other part of predicate to be complete. There is, so to speak, one missing part. Aka with ''iron horse'' we in Russia mean an locomotive (gin). |
"BDR", means this company, re sourcing smaller bits (less than skids) of panzerholz in North America. http://www.bdrsound.com/contact-us.html |
Briefly looked into accessing some Panzerholtz and ran into the same issues as the OP specifically distribution and machining. Ended up going with some Bamboo laminated sheet material a friend uses in his manufacturing facility and price was right shall we say. Not in quite in the same league as PH but this stuff is also abrasive to cutters and very dense due to the many laminated layers. At one point I made the regrettable decision to run an edge on the jointer and it became immediately obvious just where the layers were laminated as it left matching groves in my new blades there after only very good carbide and replace when dulled. Picture of plinth in my system page. |
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/albert-porters-after-market-panzerholz-plinths From 2010. What is old is new again. |
I did a DIY plinth several years ago and settled on Corian/MDF/Corian. The MDF was soaked with a very thin 2 part epoxy (Smith Systems Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer or CPES), sort of a poor man's Panzerholtz. The results were quite impressive and very inexpensive to build. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/312473-diy-cld-plinth-design-measured-approach.html |
I used panzerholz B25 for my DIY TT plinth. Agreed, hard to work with, gummy (the glue) and hard (beech veneer). I did most of the cutting with a jig-saw (German blades) and file, and a diamond hole saw. Takes a good finish. The thing is, it's acoustically dead, and it epoxies up very nicely, which is important for constrained layer damping. Which Delrin does not (epoxy nicely). One of the very best go to materials, IMO. Worth the price? Depends on how you value your design time. |
Fantastic discussion and information, particularly in the @phoenixengr link. Gotta get some me Corian! Bill, do you think slate is approximately the same as granite in terms of stiffness, resonance, self-damped characteristics, etc? I like the look of slate better than that of granite---slate looks like Hot Rod Black paint jobs ;-) . In addition to the 3M tape mentioned in the linked diyaudio forum thread, ASC makes a constrained layer damping product they named Wall Damp. It was designed to be installed between two layers of sheet rock, and I have heard the results when that has been done (in Audiogon member folkfreak’s room). Very, very effective. I talked to ASC about using Wall Damp between a layer of relatively-stiff material (I named slate or granite) and Baltic Birch ply, and he said it is more effective when both layers are less stiff. He said constrained layer damping products work by absorbing vibration and converting it into heat. The less a material vibrates, the less effective is CLD. MDF is far less stiff than 13-ply Baltic Birch, so I assume it is the better choice for mating with Corian or Panzerholz. |
bdp24, Corian is very difficult to get if you are not a licensed installer but there are other brands available that are essentially the same stuff. Corian will actually stain over time and is not as hard as Quartz solid surface material which will never stain. I made my sub woofers out of Corian layered with glass microspheres in epoxy (System 1). Layered with MDF as Phoenix did should work well also. If you edge the MDF with a hardwood like walnut you can get nice cosmetic results. Quartz is harder and heavier than Panzerholtz but more brittle. You can not use only a hardwood for the middle layer as it will expand and contract with humidity and in time the whole assembly will fall apart. I have also made dipole speakers this way with excellent results. Quartz really requires diamond tooling, Corion will cut and shape with carbide. |
Agreed that constrained layer damping works by converting vibration to heat, but don’t agree that it is more effective when both layers are less stiff. A counterexample to the ASC assertion is industry-leading Quietrock 545 acoustic drywall, with an embedded layer of sheet steel. Works very well in my listening room. This is consistent with my understanding, that what matters is speed of sound in the material. Adjacent materials should have very different sos. I have read that panzerholz sos and aluminum sos are similar (6000 m/s), but have not tested it, though I keep meaning to. |
I have no personal experience with Corian, but found the following comments when considering a plinth for a SP-10 Mk 2. First, apparently Corian includes flakes of aluminum in the compound. But there is no specification for size or quantity of those flakes, so the resonance characteristic can vary from one brand to another. Second, it is mentioned in the Direct Drive site and is not recommended for plinths, too lifeless or laid back sonically. Your mileage may vary. |
pryso ... apparently Corian includes flakes of aluminum in the compound. But there is no specification for size or quantity of those flakes, so the resonance characteristic can vary from one brand to another.That can't be correct, because DuPont is the sole manufacturer of Corian and has trademarked the name. |
Corian does not have flakes of aluminum in it. It is alumina trihydrate and an acrylic polymer. The different manufacturers of solid surface material use different polymers. Alumina trihydrate is a byproduct of bauxite as is aluminum ore. There are now about 20 different manufacturers of solid surface material now including the quartz versions. All of it is very heavy and stiff. Laminated to MDF it makes a marvelous plinth or baffle board. You just have to have the tools and knowledge to work with it. It is also extremely messy. The dust sticks to everything. You have to vacuum your ceilings after a project. You have to use special adhesives that require special guns which are different for any given manufacturer and the adhesives are color specific. For the usual home crafts person it is just plain hard to deal with it all. |
I know this thread has been sleeping for a while now. I am discussions with my former employer about building his latest designed speaker in USA. He was the one who suggested Panzerholz (Panzerholtz) to me. When I worked for him, we were building out of HD3, made from New Zealand hardwoods with a resin. HD3 is 1.6 times as dense as HDF, however it is not made anymore. I'm looking for something like that again, to laminate 4mm steel plate to, for our enclosures. Thank you, this is a very informative thread. Materials are so much cheaper here than back home. I'm excited to get going on this. |
@mijostyn yes I do know how much it weighs, every time I am foolish enough to move my stand mount speakers. You can barely see the steel plates affixed in my system page, and I'm guessing your eyes will roll when I mention two of the four cross braces are inch and a half solid cast iron rod. Using the same epoxy used to build Maxi racing yachts, the steel plates do not ring when laminated to HD3, or HDF, or MDF. What they do accomplish is change the resonant frequency, moving them out of audible range (well, mostly where they will least impact overall sound). My speakers with a rap of the knuckles sound somewhat like a dinner plate, but much more inert. I think my grey pair of speakers weigh something like 98lbs each. About the same as my welded steel stands. Aluminum absolutely rings. https://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=80 Of course geometry is as important as materials used, the Magico have a reputation of engineering prowess. |
the carbon fiber wrapped stealth cabinet within cabinet design of the Vandersteen 7 is a wonder. Constrained layer converts to heat what brute force ( mass loading ) just moves around…. I think the carbon fiber reinforced Panzer is intriguing…. This is an excellent thread, civility the order of the day |
Yes, I had Precision Composite Industries make me a custom replacement Albert Porter panzerholz armboard and am very happy with it. I toyed around with the idea of commissioning a new dual-armed Albert Porter style Technics SP-10 series plinth, but I personally didn't have a real need. I'm pretty if someone supplied them with the specs it would be a lot more affordable than the Artisan Fidelity equivalent. |
@mke246 |
Anwesh can be contacted via the Link. There are numerous items that are able to be achieved using Permali as the Resin Impregnated Densified Wood. The Spec' for the Permali being used is very similar to Panzerholz. https://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=43277.new#new |
@923mary , Thanks for the heads up on Precision Composite Industries. I’ve been toying with a tonearm board the past month for my SME 309 on my Technics 1210 GAE. Came down to 10mm billet aluminum, but I think the Panzerholz would be the better choice for any resonance feedback into the arm. |
@danmar123 As a user of a SP10 MkII seated upon a P'holz Plinth, along with a group of other users of the same TT and Plinth material, it is now mandatory to have a Phenolic Resin Densified Wood Board used a Sub-Plinth. Panzerholz is the material generally used, but there are other options for this material from other Brands, Permali is also being used. The material shown in the Link is available in the US, in many different colours, all info strongly suggests it is a ideal Resin Impregnated Densified Wood material, even though the weight can’t be identified as being approx’ 1400Kg/m3, or if it is a Delignified material. I would suggest to get to over a 1000Kg/m3 Delignification is occurring. |
@pindac I'll look into it. The one material I'm familiar with on the site is the RICHLITE, so I'll have to do more research. Thank you |
@danmar123 I have looked at Richlite in a basic way. It seemingly comes in at approx' 700Kg/m3 This as a weight is typical of other Phenolics produced from Paper, Cotton or Fibreglass. Compression will only seem to be enough to produce a Board that has a useful structural property. These Types of Phenolic are usually with a damping factor not as accurate for Damping / Dissipation as is Densified Wood and the few other materials are also comparable. The Link will offer further guidance.
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@pindac I don't see Densified Wood on their website. |
@danmar123 The link I added, has the Densified wood shown as the Brand Names Panzerholz and Permali. |