How much of High End Audio is Horn Speakers?

What kind of compression driver are you going to put behind that vlad?😄

I just received my First Watt SIT-3 today This combined with my Coincident Statement Preamp. Wow! This kinda of slumming is cool.

I’ll pile on.

@vladtheimpala 

I’ve owned

Wilson, Piega, Magnepan, Montana, Von Schweikert, Spatial Audio, Reference 3a, Nola, Green Mountain Audio, and the list goes on……..and on…….

Listening to Klipsch LaScala IIs as I type this. Guess I’m slumming now.

@vladtheimpala 

There are many to choose from. Take your pick. If horns were the answer, then I suppose that Magicos, Rockfords, Bowers and Wilkins, Focals, Raidhos, KEFs, Monitor Audios, Sonus Fabers, Stenheims, Wilsons, MartinLogan's, Dalis, TADs, 

I have owned Dali, Wilson, and Sonus Faber.  I listened at great length to every speaker you mentioned above and then I heard a horn speaker.  Specifically, AvantGarde horn speakers.  From there, I eventually decided on Viking Acoustic Grande Voix Dual Horn speakers.  I absolutely love the horn sound especially on live albums.  I will never own any other type of speaker except a horn going forward.  

Yes.  AG's are great "late night, low level listening speakers because the dynamics are still there, even at very low volumes. :)  BH

@vladtheimpala Another example of how different our ears listen, because with my Avantgrade, I have no issues playing at low dbs and getting as good and engaging, if not better, sound as my Wilson Alexx V and  Sonus Faber Aida.

Clearly they all have their own signature, that I like or I would not have bought them, but I tend to listen most of my Classical and Spanish music on the Avantgrade, Jazz and rock on the Wilson and Sonus. 

Each of those brands that you mention has an exotic horn counterpart that sounds different but as good or better.

3-way floor standing speakers with AMTs that are sufficiently engineered to preclude the need to horn load to achieve usable sensitivity.

There are many to choose from. Take your pick. If horns were the answer, then I suppose that Magicos, Rockfords, Bowers and Wilkins, Focals, Raidhos, KEFs, Monitor Audios, Sonus Fabers, Stenheims, Wilsons, MartinLogans, Dalis, TADs, Fink Teams, Cantons, Elacs and the rest of the industry's very best offerings would either be horn loaded designs, or said manufacturers would at least offer a single horn loaded model in their line, wouldn't they?
Horns are best suited for concert venues where sensitivity is crucial to achieve concert worthy SPLs with minimal amplification and extremely long throw coverage.
BTW, I was employed by a pro sound contractor for 14 years and I'm plenty familiar with the concept or horn loading and it's attendant benefits and limitations. I view horns for hi-fi as an anachronism of yore, but there are still those among us who prefer a couple of 4-barrel carburetors over that new-fangled fuel injection stuff, and they are welcome to it.

And what miracles are you listening to vladtheimpala?

Speakers speak, horns blow 😊

01-11-2022 8:21am

I think the Avantgarde speakers represent modern horn systems quite well--they are dynamic, engaging, and fun to listen to with no more tonal issues than any other speakers.  Yes, all speakers are voiced differently, so it may be the case that an Avantgarde speaker may not fit one's particular taste, but, none of the systems I heard were so extreme in tonal balance that they stood out in that respect.  Like all horn systems, they do require very good amplification, particularly at the low wattage levels that they will require.  I heard the Duos and Trios with both tube and solid state electronics; for me, low-wattage tube is the way to go.

>>>>>>>>>>>Well said!  My AG Duos do NOT have the typical horn colorations.  And for life-like sound, Klipsch is VERY hard to beat, IMO.  ;)  

I think the Avantgarde speakers represent modern horn systems quite well--they are dynamic, engaging, and fun to listen to with no more tonal issues than any other speakers.  Yes, all speakers are voiced differently, so it may be the case that an Avantgarde speaker may not fit one's particular taste, but, none of the systems I heard were so extreme in tonal balance that they stood out in that respect.  Like all horn systems, they do require very good amplification, particularly at the low wattage levels that they will require.  I heard the Duos and Trios with both tube and solid state electronics; for me, low-wattage tube is the way to go.

@vladtheimpala blanket statements like that are never true. If you have never listen to a naturally warm, engaging and add any other adjectives you want horn speaker, then you have never listened an Avantgrade in a good system.

The Duos Avantgrade, as good and in many cases better than my Sonus Faber Aida, the Trio leaves the Aida in the dust, as it does  my Tannoy’s, or any of the other speakers I own, including the Wilson.

if the Avantgrade sound harsh, then it is either the system connected to them or the music or the room placement.

if you are ever around Barcelona, let me know, I will let you listen to them with any of my amps, including my Audio Signature Ginrei and the soon to come The Legend. If you don’t like it and find the music to be engaging and as real as you have listened, I gladly buy you dinner.

I love them, I just bought another pair for a small living room in my house in the USA. 

I must say you have quite the fleet...and all XD's, no less. Had my Duos for 20 years now and they still satisfy.

Avantgrade for me, I have  3 different pairs. 

TrioXD

Duo Primo Xd

and 

Duo XD.

No distortion from the horns....due to mechanical amplification nature of these horns

 Horn speakers have small diaphragms, working in a powerful magnetic field and acoustically loaded, which producers high efficiency and low distortion. Downside is that the waveguide creates coloration. 

My JBL 1400's are the least colored of any horn speaker I've heard, but the trade off is that to tame those resonances results in less efficiency and there is still a hint of "horniness". But I can live with that.

I have a set of khorns purchased in 1982 that were upgraded to the full volti audio treatment in 2017. I also switched to tubes shortly thereafter and the set amplifiers I use are the path to Nirvana for me. I have no desire to look for any improvement. My dream system is here!  IMHO

@zinda, That's a long first post, welcome to the forum.

I think you are a little confused regarding crossover caps and ESR.

Hint: ESR is a non-issue for XO caps. We are talking audio frequencies here, not RF

I got a call one day for a set of Chorus I's I was selling on Craigslist. the guy was desperate and the some of the people on Audiogon had convinced him that the minimum he had to spend for entry level high end stereo was $80g. He was distraught because as a retired postal worker he did not have that kind of money. Out of desperation he was considering Klipsch and then said he had been advised against Klipsch because IT WAS TOO LIFELIKE!! My jaw hit the table. I happened to have some KPT-456's also and I told him for $1500 he could have something really good. He bought a set and on his way out the door I asked him what he had heard that these were similar to. He only mentioned expensive B&W speakers which by the way he said did not sound as good as the Klipsch KPT-456's.

 He later fixed them up to look quite nice and got them featured on Steve Guttenbergs home owner systems page. I have no idea why the animosity towards Klipsch but I find it pretty strange considering how odd signature sound from expensive speakers can sound at times. The goal for me is lifelike sound replication and not some flavor of trendy distortion.

  I have not heard the Forte 4's but I have heard the CW 4's which are simply superb in accurate sound reproduction.

ALL SYSTEMS are sensitive to proper set up. But good horns will tell you exactly what’s on the recording and not everyone likes to know. 😎

      I agree!

@cohicks4,

You’re welcome! Lets not forget it was a horn that brought down the walls, of Jericho. LOL

Mike

I own AG Duos, Tune Audio Marvels, and Shinjitsu Acoustics. 
I’ve also recently owned late model LavScalas.

i’ve also owned Pipedreams Model 21’s, MG 20’s, Sound Lab A1’s, B&W 801’s, 

Martin Logan 15a’s, etc. My good friends own Alsyvox and ML CLX’s.

ALL SYSTEMS are sensitive to proper set up. But good horns will tell you exactly what’s on the recording and not everyone likes to know. 😎

Thanks for the info Mike, those 4435s are classics and awesome!

@cohicks4,

Hi,

I've been running JBL 4435 Monitors in my audio rig since 1983. IMHO: They are eargasmic! The Array1400's are nice speakers, design by Greg Timbers. FWIW; All horns are waveguides, not all waveguides are horns. Good read on horns by Don Keele, he also designed the horn in the 4435/30 monitors. See below. 

https://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/papers.htm

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10643-1400-Array

Mike

vlad-

What did you hear? Speaker? Associated equipment?

Smooth compared to what? There are many types of horns and compression drivers behind them, so that comment is the worst kind of broad stroke generalization. 

Horns are not inherently the smoothest sounding solution, by and large. 

Altec's here. HeathKit AS101, basically Altec Valencias in much nicer cabinets. New crossovers and 902 drivers to replace the stock 806 drivers. Sounds fabulous, haven't heard anything yet that makes me feel deprived.

Using Mac MC40 for power and everything else is tube as well. Love it.

BillWojo

cohicks4,

I had the Array1400's too. They are excellent speakers, and the looks are a knockout. Nothing else looks like them.

Great info, thanks…maybe I should spend more time reading and less listening?

This puts it better.  As you can see from the article, the raison d'etre for compression drivers IS horn speakers:

Copy that Erik, guess I was confused, but it was JBLs fault😂, they compared true horns with their compression versions in the write-up. Either way they are excellent sounding, and thanks for the clarity!

Nice write-up @cohicks4 , but I’m a little confused:

Even though the midrange and tweeters look like horns they are actually compression drivers with horns for dispersion

Most horn mids and tweets I know of ARE compression drivers. I think you may be thinking of horn loaded bass cabinets as a "true" horn speaker, but in my experience, both are considered true horn speakers. Just different drivers attached.

I wouldn’t say "even though ... look like horns..." because they really are horn speakers. If they lacked the compression driver they might be called "wave guides" instead, but potato potatoe.

Using compression drivers attached to a horn is 100% pro horn speaker construction.  Nothing illegitimate about it.

I have had horn speakers in my life from the very first purchase and now as possibly the last in my systems and loved them. I started as a kid in 1976 with a pair of B.I.C. Venturi. For $79.95 and now have JBL Array 1400s. Super happy with them! The accents horns give to vocals and guitar music’ richness is second to none, IMHO. These are very non-fatiguing to me, can listen to for hours. I traded my B&W 802s for these and haven’t looked back since. They are super unique looking, and are very neutral in most music. I power them with a Mac SS power plant, and Mac tube Pre which adds to the non-fatiguing effect. They ran me about $6k used which is half of retail and they were only a couple years old, so I felt it was a steal. The guy who I bought them from was jonesing for the JBL K2s, so he wanted more horns to replace them. Even though the midrange and tweeters look like horns they are actually compression drivers with horns for dispersion, and they do an excellent job of that. I don’t think you made a mistake with your Cornwalls though…if I bought Klipsch, those would be for me. Enjoy your purchase no matter what people say…

Plenty of people enjoy their horns stock, others enjoy modded. Now, what exactly is wrong with horns, seems like all these people are satisfied. Unless we're all masochist and only fooling ourselves.

Perhaps the ease with which horns are amenable to diy or off the shelf mods is part of the appeal.

By the way, I've modded box speakers, open baffle and horns, I like my speakers to fit my exact needs. Nothing inherently wrong with any of these designs.

Have had Rectilinear, Visonik, ADS, Maggies, Thiels, Acoustat, M&K, Salk (still have these), and probably a few others I've forgotten, and have no complaints on running Forte IV's in my main (of 3) system.

"Is it the Klipsch name that illicits this type of response (1) or is it Horn speakers in general? (2)"

[please excuse my bad English]

I am afraid it is the #1 answer.

But there is nothing wrong with your choice; after all, it has to suit you.

I heard the Klipsch Cornwall again recently at a show. I personally would not use them for my favorite classical music works (or any acoustic instruments recording), but with all other genres (especially rock & pop), I admit they can provide a lot of fun.

I usually hate horns. Nevertheless, I recently discovered some horn speakers that sing like divas (but are as pricey as a car).

Enjoy your music, whatever the speakers and others opinions.

The advantage IMO of horn loaded speakers is their efficiency. The disadvantage is coloration, they usually have a characteristic horn sound, like its coming from a tube, which it is. 

 JBL have done a pretty good job of taming horn speakers, with wide waveguides and crossovers but at the expense of efficiency.

Got khorns in 1982. Upgraded to full volti audio in 2015. The improvement was astounding. Will have khorns until death do us part. These speakers could make a toaster sound good. Use tubes for amplification. Heaven on Earth. Have no apologies for Klipsch fans. Khorns now sound like a khorn should sound. IMHO

So...I've dabbled on and off with Klipsch too after having polar opposite speakers in my system. I run a Pass 250.8 amp, Pass XP10 Pre, PS Audio DS Jr DAC and have a REL s5/SHO sub, with a JL audio F113 v2 on the way. I have a dedicated 13x22 listening room that's acoustically pretty tight. 

I've had Focal 1038 BE, Focal Sopra 2, B&W 805 D3, Harbeth 30.2, Harbeth HL5 Super Plus and several others. Of all of these the Focal 1038 and Harbeth HL5 stood out as most musical. Last year I tried a pair of Klipsch Heresy 3 for a few months - they did a lot right but had a mid bass hump and some "honkiness" in the mid on some music. Being on the floor also lowered the height of their sound staging. A few months ago I bought a pair of Klipsch Cornwall 4 after reading great reviews and hearing from a friend of mine how much he loved his. They turned out to be really good, musical and great with both low level and "crank it up" levels. I listen to jazz, funk, soul, acoustic, etc. They speakers are pretty big- and I put them on 6" amp stands, with minimal EQ in Roon to lower some bass around 80-125 hz, they sound really good- huge soundstage, no honkiness  and integrating my sub was easy too. I think they deserve more respect than they get but who knows, we're all opinionated about our gear. They do have a problem with fitting into a typical room's decor due to their size however. But, that's what second and third systems are for ;).

Friends don't let friends listen to self-important snarky posts.

single-driver

Note most big high end horn SYSTEMS have more than a single driver.

This dual thingy worked out really **splendid* to use a old english slang. In spite of the Society of FR Entheusiasts who all voted to give me the boot out of THEIR Club over at DIY, I broke THEIR rules ,,dual FR are not allowed + cabinets MUST be built by EXACT specs , tests, graphs, comp program models, Dindt learn a d**n thing over there. Just a bunch of babble. I can’t live with a single FR, not enough zing factor. My 2nd tweeter arrives tomorrow. Horns might make a deeper sound, larger than life soundstage, but these duo’s are working out OK. Worlds only FR Duo’s. haha

Small room filled with stuff, typical Japanese audiophiler, Horns are 1/2 of one of 2 maybe 3 rooms. I've seen a few that way. BIG Tannoys in custom hand made hardwood cabinets.. I love it.. Makes sense to me.. I really like Imperials. too.

I wish I had a 20 acre speaker Museum. Makes even MORE good sense come to think of it.. :-) Second as a solar farm. Man oh man!! :-)

Regards

Well, if you never heard such a setup, you cannot comment based on experience.  As I write this I am sitting 8 ft from a horn setup in a most sized room.  I have heard few systems I like more than what I have (those too were horn systems), and I’ve heard quite a number of single driver full-range systems and multi-way systems with full-range drivers.  I might be persuaded to trade in my horn system for a two-way system utilizing a Jensen M10 fieldcoil full-range driver and a Western Electric 597 fieldcoil tweeter, but then again, maybe not.  At a much lower price point, I could live with a single-driver Charney Audio speaker (with the AER driver).  In other words, there is more than one approach to design that sounds good and there is no need to insist there is only one way, much less one particular set of components, that sounds good.

Wrong as usual mozartfan. I am using large horn speakers in a smaller 11x13 room with no problems.

Are we refering to the AG Duos in the YT video?

Or another smaller version w/o sub bass??

If we are refering to the speaker in the YT video, I'd say a  rather large size area might accomadate such a  rather huge,,,if not massive soundstage.

Horns like stats need huge areas to breathe,,othwise the listener feels he is being attacked by the speakers.

Small room for a  horn??
Ner heard such a   set up.

I have heard the AG Duos in four different rooms, including two small rooms and liked them in all instances.  The bass sounded more even and better integrated in the larger rooms, but there was plenty to like in even the smaller rooms—vivid, lively sound, and reasonably natural tonal qualities.  

Plenty of other horn systems, even quite large systems sound good in small rooms (look at Japanese audio magazines to see how many such systems are crammed into small spaces).  The waveguide of a horn reduces the impact of room interactions and so they can work well in smaller spaces.  I don’t know where someone would get the notion that 15’ ceilings are needed—explain what you personally heard (not youtube nonsense) that is the basis for this claim.
 

Is there an unwritten rule that friends don’t let friends buy Klipsch? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, this is true.
 

That is rude.