I have been adamant about avoiding special fuses, because of the lack of empirical studies. Here is my question: What would be something not too expensive that would be a good start. I use three dual mono Audire amps (for Woofs, Mids and Tweets, and Subs, each of the six channel having four fuses. I would not not want to spend thousands, even if I could, just to experiment. My heat sinks do unplug, along with the outputs, and I could try just one channel or one amp. Paul of PS mentioned what they use, and that might eventually be a possibility, but what do you guys (and gals?) think I should do, to just to convince this ageing skeptic? Also, each channel of my amps has one single, dedicated computer chip that regulates the filling of the 4 26,000 mf caps (per channel), which might make any difference less than a design that allows a flood of electrons into the tank, presuming that might matter. DanV
cerberus79 A few months ago I purchased a used pair of speakers from another Agon member. To my surprise all the fuses were Orange fuses. I listened to them and then to satisfy my curiosity I replaced them with ordinary buss fuses and could not hear a difference. I did this test with a bunch of friends and neither I or them could hear a difference. Kind of just says it all doesn't it?
To those non technical thinking of purchasing these $$$ fuses. Just save your $150+ and do this instead.
A fuse: 1: two end caps 2: short piece of fuse wire connecting the two end caps through a glass tube (that’s all she wrote).
To those "non technical" members that are interested in "maybe" wasting their money, do not listen to the non-technical, listen to the technicians of this industry that design the audio products you have and listen to. AND YOU WON"T SEE THEM ON THREADS LIKE THIS AGREEING WITH WHAT SAID HERE ABOUT THE SOUND IMPROVMENT DETAILS AND AC FUSE PLACEMENT DIRECTION, EVER!!! Just clean and tighten your fuse holder and re-new your fuse (if old) with a good quality 50cent Bussman, Littlefuse or similar.As with "many switch-on surges" they do deteriorate, bend, stretch and get crusty with electrolysis formations on their fusible wire elements before they give out, as these pics show of a fuse wire element ageing over time show. https://ibb.co/9NbTwqK (even the $$$ boutique ones will age just as much also)
Wow! no wonder some of you need better fuses, with one per piece of electronics. How is that even possible? One per channel would seem to be a minimum, which I hope you actually mean. My amps have 4 each, two per isolated channel, for a mere 125 wpc each. (250 wpc @ 4 ohms; 400 wpc @ 2 ohms). With a fuse on each side of each low side circuit (i.e. 2 per channel), and each channel designed with 4 x 26,000 mf of filter capacitance, it seems there should be much less stress per fuse. Also, there is one computer chip per channel, which regulates each channel's power supply (500 watt transformer and 4 x 26,000 filter caps per channel). This must stress the 110 volt circuit much less than cheap systems that allow all the current to rush in at once, and especially those that are designed to have the outputs work hard to suck the power from a small power supply, rather than just throttle the signal from a big one. I know this regulation system works, because when I had a 15 amp circuit breaker (Now 30), we tested it by using a power strip to turn on three amps at once (potential 4500 watts at turn on without regulation). The breaker did not trip. er. Two (unregulated) Audire Model 2's, or two Phase Linear 400's did. FYI, house breakers trip at a continuous 75% of their rating, so a 15 amp one blows around 11 amps. My pair of old (Unregulated) Audire Model 2's drew up to 1500 watts each at turn on, or 3000/110 volts equals 27 instantaneous amps. This must be hard on cheap fuses. Since each amp had one fuse, I could see how a really good one could help? My main amps run much cooler than my Bryston, or Phase Linear, or my ancient Audire Model 2's. In fact, in a test, the upper amp Bryston heated up the amp below it, even with a 2 inch riser between them. This large and regulated power supply system showed no discernible improvement when we tested it with shorted fuse blocks, rather than the standard fuses. The Bryston; maybe. Model 2 and Phase Linear: YES! They improved somewhat... maybe? Does that sound reasonable to you engineers? Can your super fuses actually pass current better than a straight wire? If so, please explain; otherwise, please google "Vleblen Effect" or "HYDROX (vs OREO) Effect". or "Veblen Diamonds Ferrari".
To fuse or not to fuse....well I did it, I dipped my audio toe into the fuse pool. Just bought the QSA Light Blue at a mere $71. What could I lose? I know, $71 bucks. So I was going to be the voice of reason. I slipped it in the slot and fired my Raven Audio Nighthawk/Blackhawk modified. I immediately heard an improvement. Placebo? The presentation is calmer, more together, and at times attention grabbing realism. The sound stage seems quieter, deeper, and the tone seems to have more gravitas. My wife said it seems the background is quieter. Then she stayed up an extra hour listening. That rarely ever happens. How? Why? No idea....just better...get one, tell me you hear no improvement. I'll believe you. (I'm very impressionable) (Send back if a worthless experiment)
Purple Haze, was LSD of old.. Hee hee. YUP... Now it is a variety from the "Haze Brothers" and "Super sativas". These were and are REAL things..
As for the fuse bypass.. I’ve never had a problem.. BUT I do take precautions. NO I don’t recommend it, I’ll keep my sonic nuggets to myself...
SS is tough enough to make sound right, without fighting a stupid fuse and a power cord. Talking about James B.. He welded his PC in.. he wanted you to use HIS PC.. Welded, is what they state, not solder a # 12 cable.. Why only a # 12?.. YUP, there is a reason for that too.. It is a certain length too..WHY? All part of the PS design. Smart dude.. Liked Single malt Scotch too.. :-)
lemonhaze Is that as good as purple haze? Seriously, why do people here argue about things they "KNOW" to be true? How anal is that? I personally would never bypass fuses. It is asking for trouble. Otherwise, your answer is great. I will return to my argument concerning power cords, as it relate to fuses: What kind of a crappy designer would spend thousands, or more, designing an amp and use crap fuses and power cords that diminish the sound of his accomplishment? Is he so certain of his design flaws that he wants to hide his accomplishment?
Can always rely on a fuse thread for some entertainment. WOW guys really?
If you don’t believe fuses can make a difference, great you have eliminated the issue and can move on. That is, PLEASE MOVE ON. Why waste your time belittling others when you know it’s impossible for a fuse to improve the sound.
I have posted this challenge before. It’s FREE: Swap direction of a stock fuse and listen. If you hear no change count yourself lucky and walk away. If you do hear change then try some good quality returnable fuses. Do they make a difference? - - of course they do, everything makes a difference.
For a reference, temporarily replace a fuse with a clean copper tube and listen to the sound then find the fuse that sounds most like no fuse. I am running my power amp with bypassed fuse which sounds better than any fuse I have tried. It’s staying that way.
@oldhvymec, I like your amps. Jim Bongiorno was one of audio’s greats. I still own one of his Son of Ampzilla designs that blew up at a party 20 years ago after somebody spilled the whole bowl of punch over it. I kept the chassis and rebuilt it with a Neurochrome kit. This is the amp I am running fuseless.
ttocs12699 posts01-22-2021 6:42pmif you use a power conditioner/surge protector could you just remove the fuses?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
NO.. Fire protection, and equipement protection first.. You can get in trouble if you’re not careful.. Usually there is a 2-5 amp slow blow to get a valve amp going and a .5 -1.5 quick blow, for a tube failure..
LOL I’ve bypassed fuses and really seen an improvement too. It usually had to do with low impedance loads like 1-2 ohm loads and BASS drivers.. Me pushing amps for all I could get, before big class Ds..
love the directional fuse guys the best, because it is akin to wearing putting a swastika tattoo: It lets people know where you stand. As I have noted before, electricity from our wall outlets, interconnects, speaker cables, as well as sound WAVES from our speakers, does not flow like water; it "vibrates" back and forth". If AC wires, including audio cables, were truly directional, they would restrict half of their functionality
Energy flows from the power source to the load, so your understanding is only partially correct.
A lot of better quality laptop power supplies are filled with silicone potting. It gets the heat out, keeps the parts in place, and gets rid of acoustic noise.
Tar used to be really popular, but not stuff I work with. I understand it is still used because it is cheap and works well.
What gave me the rubbery amp filler idea was my 1969 500 Kawasaki triple, the first bike with an electronic ignition. That beast really vibrated, so it was filled with tar looking goo.
Silicone potting compound. Goes in liquid, dries to a nice rubbery consistency. I would expect someone has used it for home audio. Some rubbery urethane compounds as well.
Maybe we should tout a gooey, flexible liquid to pour into the amps to
damp them.
lalitk It is called break-in. You have to listen until you block out the bad stuff and hear the good stuff. This includes all break-in, as far as I am concerned. Our ears and brain adjust. I have two very good systems. It used to take me a bit to hear accept the lesser system, but I had owned if for many decades. After years of comparison, I now know what to expect in advance, and do not get critical over either system. I even accept XM radios flaws, because, it breaks in, too! Especially after I learned what to expect. Now those electronics take no time to sound good enough to listen to my jazz station. They break in so fast now that we are friends.
nonoise I was afraid someone would take this in the wrong way. Now we know. My only point it that certain things point toward a master status as far as image and beliefs. I could have used a rose tattoo, but I did not know what that signified. Maybe a peace symbol would have worked as well, but that is not thrust violently around us like Nazi-Racists fighting to overtake the government, making that a really good example for me. Of course, a zizzag rolling papers tattoo would have worked, had I thought of it.
ritamacaw Maybe we should tout a gooey, flexible liquid to pour into the amps to damp them. We can give a lifetime warranty that we can remove it, if needed, and then file bankruptcy.
audio2system Thanks to all for replies. The only reason I am considering fuses, is that Paul from PS Audio, suddenly came out with his take, and supposed surprise, that they sounded better. Of course, that might just be part of his sales pitch, since he mentions using them now in his amps,etc. If hey are not in the audio path, I am totally skeptical again, especially for my old amps with chip-regulated power supplies. Only one chip per channel, and all it does is meter the electrons from the transformer to the great big filter caps.
What I find funny, is there is a lot of truth on both sides of this silly argument.
A simple fuse pull and reverse the direction after 20 or so turn ons. IF you can hear a difference, chances are a fuse change will change the sound, (FOR YOU). If you don’t save your money. Clean the fuse pocket, check for any ARCING and replace the holder if there is.
I found the same thing with power supplies. The physical mounting and dampening of a chassis, night and day. The quality of the power supply. I found that PS that have WAY to much in the way of filter caps are a SUPER pain in the rear. For surge cold starts.. I had one pair of mono blocks that were tough to start. After you threw the power switch you, lifted the knife edge bypass, the fuse was all that was left in the circuit.
Once started, NEVER had a problem.. They were modified and built by a guy named James Bongiorno. Gas M Giant (mighty not mono block, he would say). Those things had a circuit breaker in them too. I had 1 pair of 4 or 6 ever made. 40 years ago maybe.. I don’t think they ever saw production.. Pimp Daddy.. That’s what they use to call the dude.. Good on the keyboard. Jazz fella.
So I have seen a fuse make a difference in power amps for valves, more so than SS. Chassis dampening, I use a Cary V12r. That is one of the quietest chassis I’ve EVER used.. Almost like pot metal it’s so thick..DEAD quiet.. High temp, med soft silicone mounts for the transformers.
The Cary likes SR orange or blues. My Mark L.. they could give a hoot.. My Brain 565s, they could give a hoot, Nord NC500 with stock fuse holders, they could give a hoot. My Macs MC225-275.. LOVE SR fuses...My C2500 could give a hoot.. My MX120, loves ONE fuse the rest inside could give a hoot...(4 total). My Sony ES SACDs LOVE SR fuses. Most of the TT stuff, they don’t, that’s right "Give a hoot" The RtR I haven’t listened. BUT I bet it makes very little difference, GREAT PS and the IC just serviced..
SO THERE.... The Hoots and Hoot nots. You all need to learn to "Ponder" just a bit.
I do believe in being respectful, and understanding others can do things better than me.. Paying attention to detail. Being able to run faster, type faster, talk faster, listen BETTER or have better hearing, in spite of what I can or cannot hear.. I still respect the fact others are BETTER... I guess that is tough for some folks to hear... They can’t hear the difference.. I’m glad when some one can.. My heart doctor in particular.. :-) GOOD set of ears on that guy...
The truth is folks, fuses in general, are bad for sound. They limit current, and are a band aid for the purpose of the protection of gear. This is the fact. As theaudiotweak pointed out with transformers, they produce mechanical vibration ( and other things ). Take any amplifier design, and isolate the power transformer ( s ) from the chassis ( cork and rubber, a simple mouse pad ) can do wonders. I use sheets of Dynamat, if I have the room within the chassis, and it is incredible the cleanliness of the sound, with this one tweak. Of course, I dampen the entire chassis, including those horrible heat sinks, which ring like hell ( they all do ). Everything makes for sonic improvements, as I have done for myself, and many others. Doing and listening, is the only way to know. And back in the day, when components did not have IEC inlets, I replaced the cords ( soldered ) to better, heavier gauge cords by the big cable manufacturers ( Belden, Southwire, as examples ), and incredible sonic improvements, every time. If anyone opens their gear ( inclusive of fuse replacement ), I recommend to be careful, and hope you know what you are doing. I take zero responsibility ( if anything bad or dangerous is to happen ) for recommending these things to anyone who wants to tackle them. I have nothing more to say, at this point, on the fuse topic. Enjoy, and be well.
I would concentrate on the mids and highs only you will not need special fuses for the bass frequencies nearly as much if at all and try to see if you can find a dealer to send you a selection of different fuses that you need and try them out it could make a real difference depending on your amp and entire system.
Can you point out one person on here who has actually done a blind test on a fuse? No. They all have "superior" hearing and could never fool themselves .....
“I have had several audiophile friends tell me about their new fancy fuses and I have shown them, in their own system, that when they didn’t know what fuse was installed, they couldn’t tell the fancy fuse from a basic fuse.”
Thanks for humoring us 😂
PS: Do you know anyone here who can possibly confirm your involvement as stated?
Looks like you may have integrated power cords? Install an IEC connector and upgrade your power cord. Much cheaper and an larger sonic bump. You can always get a 3 for 2 deal on the SR. I have 4 blacks on the rails of my monos and an Orange in the IEC. Every bit adds up.
I have been quite clear. I have had several audiophile friends tell me about their new fancy fuses and I have shown them, in their own system, that when they didn't know what fuse was installed, they couldn't tell the fancy fuse from a basic fuse.
I joined this forum about a year ago and have read some good information on it but I also have had to bite my tongue numerous times in an effort to avoid confrontations with the firmly biased. with a lot of things in life, you need to have a filter and just move on. I have 70’s-80’s system that I still like the sound of and try to keep in good operating condition. I’ve learned a lot about the amazing gear that’s out there from you folks.
Two of the most closed-minded tin-eared "audiophiles" in the universe. Notice neither one of them will come out and say whether or not they are able to hear any differences, or evaluate when one thing is better than another. Instead they hide behind innuendo and insults. Oh, and credentials. Of all the discredited things, to still believe in credentialism. Two peas in a pod.
I’ve got stuff that can be dabbed on any ordinary fuse that will make it a whole lot better. Synergistic fuses have a gray blob on there that they specifically instruct you not to remove. Is no one curious why the gray blob matters? Buy some of their outlets you will find the same gray goo blob on their outlet terminals.
This is the kind of snake oil voodoo that fusers just love, the unexplainable furphy’s.
Maybe they are Scientology’s infiltration weapon into audio sector, to slowly do some recruiting of the many gullible in audio? That grey blob of could be a secrete concoction that L Ron Hubbard devised as a virus, to make you more susceptible to their persuasion’s.
The more I read posts on what does or doesn’t matter sonically, the more
I think it would be beneficial, for a lot of folks interested in how
their gear functions, to take a basic course, or at least do some
extensive reading on basic electricity including resistance, inductance
and capacitance. Can’t hurt.
Perhaps, but if biases are firmly set in stone, you will still end up with the post below. There is a difference between possessing knowledge and being able to apply knowledge, especially in areas outside direct education.
There’s guys with way more experience than me, but even mine is enough
to know there’s no such thing as a power supply so regulated to
perfection that a power cord won’t make it even better. Well, if a power
cord then why not a fuse? Sorry, said I wasn’t going to tackle any of
the other false assumptions. Its just such a target-rich environment.
Can’t help myself.
I love the directional fuse guys the best, because it is akin to wearing putting a swastika tattoo: It lets people know where you stand.
What a sick and disgusting thing to say. Remind me not to come to your defense when the objectivists fall on you like a ton of bricks for saying you do hear a difference when you try it.
Sure seems like it couldn’t hurt. Until you learn it, and then listen to a lot of stuff, and start to realize there’s a lot more going on. Then when you look around and see how many guys think that because they have learned a few terms like impedance they know how things work. There may come a point where an over reliance on looking at things from a technical point of view does way more harm than good. I reached that point decades ago, and the more time goes by and the more things I see the more sure I am its the correct view.
Just look at the above post. The OP danvignau started this thread a couple days ago. Instead of ordering some of the highly recommended SR Blue or Orange fuses and finding out for sure if they work or not he’s wasted a tremendous amount of time chasing down imaginary technical fantasies.
I say fantasy because the posts above are entirely in these guys heads. Not only are they imaginary, they are hypothetical! That’s literally what the word "if" means! Some guy proposed a simple test. But instead of actually doing the test they find it a whole lot easier to IMAGINE doing the test, and then IMAGINE all the long list of ASSUMPTIONS the false conclusion of which is - SURPRISE! - don’t need to spend money.
What a load of bull. Sorry. Imaginary bull. I’m imagining a big steaming pile like the one Jeff Goldblum stuck his arm into in Jurassic Park. A really big steaming pile of it.
The false assumption- there’s a lot of them by the way, only gonna tackle one - is that all these fuses do is the same as a dead short. A solid copper wire. Whatever. Why? Why is anyone dim enough to think this is all that’s going on?
I’ve got stuff that can be dabbed on any ordinary fuse that will make it a whole lot better. Synergistic fuses have a gray blob on there that they specifically instruct you not to remove. Is no one curious why the gray blob matters? Buy some of their outlets you will find the same gray goo blob on their outlet terminals.
There’s guys with way more experience than me, but even mine is enough to know there’s no such thing as a power supply so regulated to perfection that a power cord won’t make it even better. Well, if a power cord then why not a fuse? Sorry, said I wasn’t going to tackle any of the other false assumptions. Its just such a target-rich environment. Can’t help myself.
Anyway, should be more than enough here to show the time one can waste on techno-blather instead of doing what actually does work right here in the real world, trying stuff and listening to it.
The more I read posts on what does or doesn’t matter sonically, the more I think it would be beneficial, for a lot of folks interested in how their gear functions, to take a basic course, or at least do some extensive reading on basic electricity including resistance, inductance and capacitance. Can’t hurt.
theaudiotweak2 Good Point! BUT! How would a fuse help curb vibrations? I did notice that my newer amp of the same model (17 years difference) did use heavier metal all all around. A couple of resistors per channel were changed, too, but Julius had already sent me the upgraded pair, when he modded my one blown channel that I sent him. The actual problem turned out to be a bad XLR adapter. DOH!
Transformers generate resonance as do all stationary electronic signal parts and all moving parts. The fact that all your components are made of many metal and many more plastic types they all have a different resonance of shape and time..That interfering energy will become part of the sound of the device even if it is located out of the listening space. Most resonance is self generated. Tom
cal91 Please see above post. I am done, unless challenged, and probably then, too!Challenges should be about overbuilt amps with regulated power supplies; otherwise, they are not relevate to my argument and experience.
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