With the proliferation of gear makers going belly up I got to thinking about this...
You are getting pretty long in the tooth & have an itch to build what will most likely be the system playing at your wake,hopefully not for another 15 years give or take...
Lets say you already chose your speakers & are now looking to get the amp to drive them..You've done the shortlist,spent some time running around to demo components accessible to you and narrowed your choices down to 3 or 4 pieces...
Here is your conundrum.. 1 or 2 of your choices are made by long established manufacturers & the others are fairly new in the industry,say 2-3 years and priced around 20% less than the well known models...
Remember,EVERYTHING else about them is equal...Do you pony up & buy from the well established makers or do you take a chance on a new to the industry maker & save some coin?Please expound on why you decided the way you did...
It is easy to discover within other Threads, posts made by myself, that clearly explains that I have turned my back on the mainstream suppliers of audio equipment many many years passed.
Today the only Device in my system that is OEM original is the Perfect Wave Transport.
All other devices are Bespoke Built or very very modified products that were once a Brands offered sale items.
The TT>Tonearm>Cartridge -- Phonostages ( Valve - Valve Hybrid - SS) -- DAC -- Pre Amp's -- Power Amp's ( Valve - SS) -- Speakers ( ESL - Cabinet Designs) are not in any ways a mainstream Item. All are produced by individuals who specialise in undertaking such works with Electronics and Micro Mechanical Engineering.
The system impresses me beyond my wildest dreams, and all who have encountered it completely assembled within the home have been offering appraisal that is very pleasing. When the system has been demo's at Public Attended Exhibitions, the Room used for the demonstration has been constantly full for the large part of the shows duration, the Thumbs Up gestures and voiced appraisals has been in great number.
In relation to cost, to go the route to match this systems qualities as a off the shelf purchase in today's market, I would suggest the cost of £150K+ has to be considered.
A Father and Son met at a Public Exhibition who were also a Company producing Turntables where prices started at £50K met with me, when the Room quietened, and informed me, my system was on par with their clients systems that can easily cost in excess of £250K. Compliments with that type of info are ones that don't come on a regular basis.
More importantly, I am playing with audio now, but never seem to be replacing anything, only adding where good discoveries are made to increase the range of End Sound that can be experienced.
I’m with @pindacwith leaning towards the unmentioned third option - bespoke small operations that likely have presumed little overheard and limited/no advertising. With these sometimes one-man operations I’ve recently noticed that prices have fluctuated as they navigate the current environment. On this note, I had a lengthy conversation with a small brick and mortar HiFi dealer who stated they were adjusting prices daily on their website. Not trying to be political; it’s just the times we’re living in right now.
Between the other two options, who really knows? We don’t have access to their financials and can only attempt to make educated guesses with their positioning in the market. With Auralic seemingly winding down, you begin to wonder about other perceived well-established companies. Over in the Roon Forum, Peter Lie, Firmware Lead for Lumin, recently addressed the Auralic issue by stating that Lumin had plans on releasing new products and felt confident in the direction of Lumin.
Small Information like this would give me some confidence I guess. In all honesty, even without any information like the above, and if I was in the market, I’d still consider something like the Laiv Harmony DAC.
I would want to know more about the companies, stuff like who exactly is behind the firm, is it a mostly one man show or is it more substantial, is the established firm owned by folks with a history in the business or some VC outfit, etc.
Just taking the parameters you outlined-everything about the products is equal- I would pay up for the more established firm, assuming its history is good, no reported financial trouble, good reputation for service, etc. That's no guarantee- old line firms like MBL and ARC have been known to run aground, but I think your chances of having manufacturer service, ongoing product support and retaining resale value are better. That's worth something to me. Many of the smaller firms are great innovators, but if there is no viable succession plan, it can be problematic.
Some great companies like McIntosh and Sonus Faber change hands at an alarming rate and you never no what new corporate ownership will bring. Some like T+A and Burmester figure out a succession that is more likely to honor the founder's vision.
If EVERYTHING is identical, I would expect reliability to be identical. In the case of a solid state amplifier, a quality piece should last 15+ years without service (in my experience). If that is the case, I'd save the money.
But, I would be concerned about the reliability of an unproven product with no history.
Depends strictly on how much and one’s tolerance for risk. Personally with bigger ticket items I always shy away from smaller companies with little or no track record. But the devil is always in the details so anything possible. Customer service and support matters when talking big bucks in particular.
If you already picked speakers, then your choice of amplifiers is limited to those that have "audible chemistry" with them, and will give you the end sound that pleases you.
Absolutely established... if you are looking for nuanced quality sound. When a manufacturer has been around for decades, they have attended to the minor aspects of sound as well as first blush characteristics. If you are buying high end equipment you will be discovering nuance deeper and deeper into the sound as time goes on. You want that nuanced performance.
As I have gotten older, I have appreciated the nuances of well reproduced sound, the gestalt, proportion and musicality. These arnt’ things you get right in the beginning. If you are looking for slam or details for the money... then newer companies.
I have worked in manufacturing for most of my career as well. Same thing here. Learning to manufacture well is part art and science. Knowing not the put some part next to some other... even though it "should not" make a difference comes from experience... it can effect sound and reliability.
You earn becoming a well established brand and manufacturer. This happens over time delighting many customers. Additionally, over time you establish processes and best practices that help keep you on top, again, over time. There are many “flashes in the pan” that do things well for a short period of time and who knows if they can keep it going for lengthy time. I am a firm believer in buy it once. Therefore, I would buy the trusted well established product knowing that it has earned its place at the top.
Due Diligence is no harm done, it is the equivalent of giving priority to Caveat Emptor when making a purchase.
My situation is such, I don't care about resale value, anybody who knows their stuff will immediately see where the spends have been done in my audio equipment.
Purpose produced Schematics, not copies of others designs are the fundamental.
Topology is the creation of the Builder Designer, no dimensions controlling the selections of the components, if the casing has to be 18"W x 18"D x 8"H and be produced from a certain gauge of Metal Sheet, with 'X' amount of Ventilation catered for, then that is it, or choose a different design for an Amp or other device if the mass does not work out.
Hand Wound Bespoke Produced Tranx's both Power Supply and Output are not normal and when done as mine are and at my present age, have gone from a One Person Handling to a Two Person Handling if injury due to weight is wanted to be avoided.
Point to Point Circuitry and voicing of the End Sound with End Owner having an influence on which components are the critical ones to be maintained in the final assembly is where the service really comes to the fore.
If the End User wants to tweak the BOM by trying out a range of components and pay the Designer Builder to assist with this investigation, there is a lot on offer, to the point an exchange of the device may never be sought anymore, well that my experience.
My First EE/Designer/Builder was met in the 90's and they have produced Three Builds for me, and are working on the latest at this current time.
My Valve Input/ Output Phon' is built by an EE/Builder/Designer who was producing Phon's as a side hobby, and I was encouraging them to take them to Bake Off's and Exhibitions attended by the public. These Phon' designs were well received and at a later date adopted by a well known UK Company selling into the Analogue Market, where models were to be marketed at £10K+.
My DAC was produced through an intermediary and was built in Hungary by the EE/Designer/Builder on my behalf. It is now quite a few years old, does it matter if the Original Builder is still accessible, for me No, any warranty is long expired.
If one wants a guaranteed chance for a sale of a item at a pretty much easy to learn market value, then Branded Products are the way to go, even buying used items from well exposed Brands, is a way to reduce the cost of entry into a certain level of audio.
My methodology of purchasing audio equipment is one that is most likely more cost friendly than buying used items, and has the option of creating a personal preference for voicing, (very very attractive option) on a build that is already of to a very good start as selected schematic-Topology-BOM for audio equipment.
At what price difference would you purchase a no-name item over an established Brand name? This is a sliding scale and could have notional breaks at say 20%, 40%, 60% and 80% discount.
Change the premise a bit, and introduce sound technical innovations with a no-name manufacturer, versus an established technology and brand. I personally am tempted when the price difference approaches 50%.
A complication is that the innovative little guy probably cannot afford to protect his intellectual property with patents and sooner or later a Brand will adopt his technological breakthrough.
Somebody had to buy the first SME tonearm. Somebody had to buy the first class-D amplifier.
Seems like the only reason for preference in long term established company is for future resale and/or maintenance. Both importance is subjective - what’s acceptable to some may not be for others.
@kennycexactly; and based on OP’s statement, it would seem that resale value isn’t the driving concern here
You are getting pretty long in the tooth & have an itch to build what will most likely be the system playing at your wake
@freediverget amps that make your speakers happy, that make them sing. Audition amps with your speakers, of course. How the end sound, ideally, captures your heart is all that matters. Not the price, nor how many years the manufacturer has been in business, etc.
Besides, established companies are less likely to disappear outright, but they do get bought out and the new owner may decide to end support for legacy products. Try to get vintage Levinson serviced by Levinson.
As a manufacturer that is not well know I would say to contact the one you are considering and as about issues or future repairs.
As a manufacturer we are all point-to-point wired using the best parts versus even the well established manufacturers. As a repair facility many repairs are because of lower quality parts and circuit boards over a period of time.
Designs can be simple even if a manufacturer is out of business if you know a excellent repair facility with a technician that has a degree in electronic design or has been doing repairs a very long time.
@richardbrandThe comparing price thing becomes quite difficult, put a Off the Shelf Product from a well exposed Brand that costs $20K - $40K, against a designed item with a BOM of $4K - $5K and there is going to be a very difficult time justifying the extra $15K - $35K for the branded item, even if the aesthetic has an improved appeal.
I have heard a range of SS Amp's that have been from a Kit Design / EE - Designer - Builder compared to a Branded $50K Power Amp in a $200K system with the $50K Power Amp' in use.
I can assure that when the system value was reduced to near $150K through exchanging the resident $50K amp for other amp's significantly cheaper in cost, but from a very good design and build ethic, the overall system performance was not easily discerned for being compromised, and in the case of a Neurochrome Amp, the outcome was clearly showing the $50K amp had serious competition, where the only differences was a sonic signature from each.
I have heard the Neurochrome Amp's also show that an EAR Amplification does not separate from them in End Sound Impression able to be made.
Very recently a report is being made of a very affordable SS Power Amp' that is a Kit Design and Turn Key, that is making a substantial impression when compared to Amp Designs produced by recognised guru's in their field of work. I will certainly take this info on board and become more investigative.
I would call and talk to someone at the low price manufacturer. If you can’t talk to a real person run away. If you can you’ll be able to tell whether theirs any substance there. Then go with you gut, it’s usually right.
Preferably, go with an established manufacturer. After forty-seven years in electromechanical medical device regulatory affairs, quality assurance, and quality engineering, I cannot stress the importance the maturation of the design control and continual manufacturing control improvement process brings to achieving design intent and reliability. Established manufacturers have spent substantial dollars and time developing products that are able to convey the emotion of the recorded composition and performance within their design intent (house sound) through the design control and continuous improvement processes. Some of my favorites that express nuance in an highly musical manner but all sound distinctly different from each other include Audionet (above my means), Burmester, Audio Research, Grimm, Boulder, Etc. If you go with a start-up company, due diligence to assure the company personnel have experience in manufacturing, as well as the design of audiophile products. As an example, I purchased Mola Mola based on the reputation and work experience of Bruno Putzeys. Finally, sorry to say there are no absolutes. I purchased a Linn Unidisc 1.1 and when the custom laser burnt out eight years later, they no longer supported the product. At that price point, inexcusable. But that experience is not in the norm. Good luck. Stay with an established manufacturer or otherwise use due diligence.
The key is you want something that can be easliy serviced, either by warranty, or pay a normal service provider. So, if it is a mechanical moving component, like CD player, turntable, etc..., you want to make sure parts are available in the future. If it is an amp or preamp, then Class AB or A can easily be serviced by paid service provider. One thing to keep in mind - generally, it is easier to service single component gear rather than integrated gear. For example, some old 1970s japanese receivers are so cramped that it is very costly to service them while old monoblock McIntosh amps can be easily serviced. In addition, some of the new small class D amps may have specific tech parts that will not be replaceable if the small company is not around anyore.
If a brand has some years behind it that is a good thing. The brand may not be known to you, but a track record over time is very beneficial.
There are exceptions to the rule, such as when a long-term manufacturer is sold to a new corporation and they implement lots of new procedures, etc. That can be just a problematic and a brand-new company without much of a track record.
Having some years to iron out simple unexpected problems is worth a lot considering the nature of audio electronics.
Count me in the "bespoke" camp, as I tend to purchase and consider products from smaller producers; most of whom sell direct without a dealer network which saves 50% at least. I also speak to and get to know the owners/designers to get a feel of their company. For tube gear, I prefer "point to point" wired designs.
@freediverkeep in mind all the established manufacturers had to start somewhere. There is also no guarantee they will be here tomorrow either, or even owned by the founders.
Mostly small scale boutique manufacturers for me. Point to point wiring and DHT pre's and amps, so more elemental circuits which means easier diy repairs if ever needed. Low heat with these components as well, heat the enemy of reliability.
Also, virtually none of the large scale manufacturers offer components that fit my needs or desires, SET and DHT are virtually exclusive domain of small scale manufacturers. The other thing I like about small scale is I can always directly communicate with the owner/designer of equipment.
It depends on what your appetite for struggling to resell the product is and how much of a financial hit you're willing to take. No name brands, even if well reviewed sure are harder to resell because now your audience is limited to appealing to only the few other people like you who want to save money and buy no name rather than buy from a known entitly. Look at Odyssey as an example. Good product, gets a few credible reviews here and there, made by one guy essentially and if you buy a new amp from them for $2k you're lucky if you can sell it a year later for $700.
[...] Do you pony up & buy from the well established makers or do you take a chance on a new to the industry maker & save some coin?
Except for my D/A-converter I now only buy products from the pro sector. Despite all of them being well established brands - be that (the previous) Electro-Voice, B&C, JBL, MC² Audio, Marian and Xilica/ACX - they can be had new and used at prices that, relative to the very high quality all around, are way below those asked for products in the hifi/high-end arena that are shooting at the same quality level. Those who don't have unbiased, firsthand experience with high quality pro gear in a home audio environment wouldn't know of course, but all the more reason - for whatever it's worth - to then share the experience from someone who has.
So, I go for well established brands, but in my case it doesn't equate into ludicrous level prices.
Well, maybe for a 20 + years old pair....in general, the Odyssey used pricing is between 60 - 75 % of new.....holding their value pretty much better than most. Also, there are used ones popping up that were built last century !!!! So, pricing has to be adjusted for age, obviously.
And keep in mind that the one guy has managed as a family business to put out over 11,000 total products, so the available used gear is a comically small percentage.
And as for the credible reviews, ( and thanks for mentioning them) the last 6 of them all resulted in product of the year awards. So yeah, credible I guess.......
The Following is a very recent used Item sale Ad for a high quality build of a Neurochrome Module 686 Power Amp, which is Typically about £3K to own as a Built Product.
**Details:**
- Neurochrome 686: 180W per channel into 8Ω, ultra-low distortion, reference-grade transparency
- Wired with SAEC triple C
- Solid Copper RCA outputs and inputs
- Bigbottle Audio PSU: Custom linear design, premium components, dead silent operation
- Condition: Excellent, lightly used
- Location: Nantwich South Cheshire
- Price: £1800
- Shipping: Available at buyer’s expense, collection welcome. Or will deliver within a reasonable driving time of South Cheshire
If you’re looking for an amp that genuinely elevates your system—something that brings music to life with honesty and emotion—this is it.
I have heard the Neurochrome Model not produced to this Spec' as an A/B comparison against a Soulution Power Amp' with both Amp' owners present and a group of about 20 in attendance.
The Neurochrome for the duration of the comparisons was not noticeably bettered in any area of performance by the Soulution Amp'. The very expensive system in use was totally at home with either Amp in use.
As a new Purchase there is easily remaining in a Coffer £32ishK is the N'chrome is selected as the purchase.
As used Purchase a Vendor will be settling for depreciation of appox' £18K with a Soulution being sold on or £1.2K with the N'chrome being sold on.
In another way of putting it, the Soulution either Newly Purchased or as Used Purchase is close to the N'chrome for the costings for the BOM for components used for the electronics and supporting the function of the electronics. Aesthetics and the Casing is a separate concern.
The N'chrome as a used Item Purchase is now with a cost that is less than the BOM for the parts required to produce the finished working model.
The N'chrome as one example of an alternative Amp' to the Well Exposed Brands operating in the Mainstream Markets, whose offerings are only able to be acquired at a substantial cost.
Owning an N'chrome Model or alternative design from another producer whose designs come with similar appraisals, is not a sideways move or a wrong move. It is a very sensible way forward to Upgrade Sound and have a substantial amount of monies reserved while doing so.
A friend has very very recently ventured into producing an Power Amp' at a very similar cost to the Built N'chrome 686, using a very high quality Power Supply, along with a selection of Boutique Parts, all internally wired with PC Triple C.
When this Amp' was debuted at the UK Cranage Show recently, it was immediately taken to by a selection of show visitors and a lot of orders are already taken for customers.
There were probably Amp's in use at very close proximity to the debuted Amp' that were costing up to 40x the asking price for this turn key model.
I am invited to hear an early production of the debuted model in a Home System I am familiar with in late October.
As I am investigating SS Amp's at the present vs my Valve Amp's this is timely.
My own early experiences, have me knowing when it comes to commercial Amp's in either Valve or SS, the price range where I sense my Amp's are being discernibly competed with is in the region of purchases that are £60K+.
The belief that " if something is expensive, it must be good " is influenced by several psychological and social factors:
Perceived Quality: Higher prices often signal better quality. Consumers may assume that more expensive products use superior materials or craftsmanship.
Scarcity and Exclusivity: Expensive items are often less accessible, creating a sense of exclusivity. People may value these items more because they are not widely available, leading to a perception of higher status.
Social Proof: When people see others purchasing expensive items, it can create a bandwagon effect. If many people believe something is worth its high price, others may follow suit to align with that social norm.
Brand Influence: Established brands often charge more due to their reputation. Consumers may trust these brands more, associating their higher prices with reliability and prestige.
Cognitive Dissonance: After spending a significant amount of money, consumers may rationalize their purchase by believing the product is of high quality, even if it may not be.
Marketing and Advertising: Luxury brands often use marketing strategies that emphasize quality and exclusivity, reinforcing the idea that their higher prices reflect superior products.
Overall, these factors create a psychological association between price and quality, leading many to prefer more expensive options.
How it is so very liberating to not be captured by the Influences of widely exposed Branding and the Brands careful adoption of Psychological Manipulation using Mirroring Techniques.
If individuals really want to be lead into the ensnarement and believe whilst ensnared, that they must part with a particular amount of money to achieve a certain type of End Sound, that is way beyond what lesser costing purchases can offer, who am I to suggest these individuals consider a different option to create a version of an End Sound.
If an individual is curious as to whether they need to venture into the world of investigating widely exposed Brands to achieve a certain type of End Sound, or if End Sound can be attained that is parity or better from lesser costing options. These individuals do not need to look to far, as I have supplied a very very good starting place for them to commence a investigation.
It's an interesting question. Ten or twenty years ago there was a fad for what I call "gutbucket" amps, old PA or organ amps hacked up, spray painted weird colors and purporting to have a "magical" sound. Most of them were junk. But there are some very good boutique amp builders out there today who can use high-end components and interesting designs that aren't cost-efficient for a large manufacturer. In fact, some boutique amps from the 80's, 90's and even 2000's have achieved legendary status and command pretty good prices.
First of all, I think that you have to have some experience, enough to know what you want. You've determined that CJ or Cary or Rogue or McIntosh or whoever aren't offering what you crave. You're looking for something really special. SNS makes a very valid point that for truly special SET amps, you're almost forced to seek a bespoke amp because there are so few "commercial" offerings out there.
I think there are a few things that need to be considered.
Resale value. Best not to think about that. If it's a really well-made piece, and you find after a time that you want to move on, chances are someone will want it. But bespoke amps are not for eternal swappers.
Build quality. It should be obvious even to the untrained eye, but you can always ask others to take a look and see what they think. A photo of the underside should really be part of the buying process.
Circuit design. Will ANYONE else down the road be able to figure it out? If not, you might want to stay away.
Support. Will the builder stand behind the amp, come what may?
Schematic. Will the builder provide a schematic? The truth is, there's almost nothing new under the sun when it comes to tubes. And really, what's the big secret? Are thousands of DIYers going to copy your amp?
I build Williamson amplifiers. That's all I build, but I find them fascinating because every build offers new challenges and rewards--a different output tube, a different output transformer, a new trick in the power supply. I'm like the character in the Inspector Wallender mysteries who only paints one painting, over and over. ;-) But here's the thing: A Williamson is a Williamson. Any tech, or even a skilled amateur, can diagnose and repair it. I provide a schematic. You want to copy it? Be my guest! I authored a thread over at diyaudioprojects.com showing you how to do it, and even posted the gerbers for the PCBs I had designed. (BTW, there's NOTHING wrong with a quality PCB.)
My point is that boutique amps can be very satisfying if there's ample documentation and communication. But there's no question that it's a risk if you have no idea *what you're looking for.*
If I understand your question correctly, it’s not really about money. The only costly thing about a Williamson is the output transformer. It must be able to tolerate 20dB of feedback, and remain stable without exhibiting extreme phase shifts beyond the audio band. That’s not necessarily a deal-breaker. I’ve seen stable Williamson clones using Edcor and Hammond transformers. But then you get into the issue of sonic integrity and distortion characteristics with a lesser transformer.
The Williamson has a distinct signature due to the all-triode front end. It offers a solidity and realism that other designs don’t. It was abandoned in the late 1950’s because other designs, like the Mullard, were cheaper and more stable and could offer more power with less fuss. In my opinion, once you push the Williamson past 30-35 watts, it loses its magic. To my knowledge no one offers a commercial Williamson design these days.
What would I buy instead? I don’t know. I’ve heard a lot of tube amps over the years but none of them "floated my boat" like the Williamson. But I certainly haven’t heard them all. I will say that, when the circumstances are right and you turn someone on to a Williamson, it’s pretty captivating.
As a retailer, I’ve supported both boutique and mainstream manufacturers, and as an audiophile for over 40 years, I’ve seen the strengths and trade-offs from both sides. In general, I’ve found that you often get more performance per dollar from newer start-ups and smaller boutique designers—especially those who design and build everything in-house.
That said, the advantages of these smaller companies come with trade-offs. Once they gain traction and word spreads, demand usually outpaces capacity. Lead times stretch out, and if you ever need service or repairs, turnaround can go from a few weeks to—believe it or not—over a year.
Another challenge I’ve experienced is version control. Many small manufacturers are constantly tweaking and updating their designs. Within a year, there might be three different “versions” of the same model, which can make resale tricky and sometimes confusing for owners trying to keep up with revisions.
As for newer, larger start-ups—Halcro is a good example. I became a dealer shortly after they became the buzz of the industry in the early 2000s. By 2008, they were gone. Once the company shut down, the resale value of their amps dropped like a rock. The thing is, you don’t know in those early days whether a company will turn out to be the next Halcro—here today, gone tomorrow—or go on to become a household name. In the beginning, it’s always a bit of a leap of faith.
On the other hand, established brands generally have the infrastructure and financial stability to support their customers long-term. They’re usually better funded, offer more consistent service, and their products tend to hold resale value better. You do, however, pay a bit more to get the same level of performance you might find from a boutique maker or a new start-up.
In the end, there’s no absolute right or wrong choice—just trade-offs. It really comes down to what you value more: maximum performance per dollar and individuality, or long-term stability and support.
That said, there’s something to be said for going against the flow and supporting the smaller, passionate builders who pour their heart and soul into what they do. When you buy from them, you’re not just getting a piece of gear—you’re helping a family business grow, and you become part of their story. There’s a certain satisfaction in that connection, knowing your purchase helps keep the craft side of high-end audio alive and thriving.
The downside is, sometimes it can be extremely frustrating getting what you need done in a respectable amount of time—but for many of us, that’s part of the journey and charm of this hobby. Cheers, James
Most of my gear are produced by established brands though not mass produced. Some are modern vintage models (late 90's early 2000's) that are not produced anymore though still repairable by the brands.
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