Beware of Wayne's audio - Poor product quality & worst business ethics


I wanted to get a periphery outer ring for my VPI Scout Master. The VPI ring was around 1200 bucks and I couldn’t convince myself to spend that much for something that wouldn’t make a significant night and day difference in sound quality. So I decided to look for other cheaper alternatives and came across Wayne’s Audio. These rings are advertised as “universal rings” and seemed significantly cheaper (almost 1/2 price). I asked around on the VPI forum if anyone used these and someone replied saying he wasn’t happy with the quality. Considering its mostly a “VPI only” forum, I took his comment with a grain of salt and decided to reach out to Wayne audio regarding the “quality concern” and Wayne replied saying his products were top notch and I could return them if I wasn’t happy for any reason. I was convinced and bought the ring. The ring arrived and here are my findings:The ring was much bigger than the VPI Platter. A “centering plate” came with the ring. This plate should be used to center the ring while placing the ring on the platter and then you remove the plate. After placement, when you turn on the tt, the circular motion of platter creates a centrifugal force and since the ring ( which is not exactly the same size of the platter) is being pushed around and hits the sides of the records. Centrifugal force is the same force that makes you feel like you are being thrown out when you sit on a merry go round. If you directly look at the record while its spinning, you could see the ring moving around. I am fairly new to turntables but I assume, vibration control is very important in turntables which is why people buy expensive platforms, better feet, heavy platters and outboard motors. This subtle movement of the ring (being thrown around by the circular motion of the platter) creates micro vibrations by hitting the record. You can clearly see this while the record is spinning. Though the spinning ring looks really cool, it defeats the purpose of anti-vibration and in my humble opinion creates more issues than providing any benefit. To add to this, there was also a small dent on the inside of the ring.My 2 cents - If you are looking for a ring, spend the extra money and find the perfectly sized ring for your platter, probably the one that your tt manufacturer makes. Universal rings sound like a great idea, but in my experience they worsen your sound instead of improving them.When I was in the market to buy a ring, I couldn’t find much reviews on Wayne’s ring, all I saw was cool YouTube videos. I was misled by those videos and ended up buying one. In my humble opinion, you are better off with no ring, than a ring that’s not the same size as your platter.

I reached out to Wayne's audio for a refund. This is where things got a little complicated. I reached out to him with pics and videos explaining why this will not work for my tt explaining the reasons above. I was thinking he'd charge me for 15% restocking fee but he never said anything about a restocking fee and reluctantly agreed for the ring to be sent back. He also emailed me the address the ring should be sent to. I packaged the ring and sent it back to him through USPS. The tracking said the ring was delivered to him but I didnt hear back from him. When I reached out, he said he didnt receive the ring. Although I sent him proof that the ring was sent to the right address and was delivered he said it was probably stolen from his front porch and would not refund the money. After a lot of back and forth emails and phone calls I was able to get 50% of my money back. So in the end, I paid 50% of the cost for a product that I don't even have with me lol. However I learned 2 valuable lessons from this whole experience:

1. Never send anything without "signature reqd" option.
2. When a reputable company sells a product for a higher price, there is probably a good reason behind it. Don't discount that and go for a cheaper alternative as you may at loss in the end. Now I believe a company like VPI would have never done this to me.
Ag insider logo xs@2xaudiofool1982
I tell all buyers the burden is on them to secure the goods.  If I have a photo of the goods on their doorstep and they were to lazy to take it in--that's their problem.
Wayne sounds like a piece of work.  How did you pay for this?  Did you check his credentials and background?
He has a website and regularly advertises on audiogon and usaudiomart. So I assumed he is a legit dealer. My bad.
VPI has made two different sized platters, the smaller one 11.5" (I don't know the size of the larger one). Did Wayne ask you for the size of your platter when you ordered his ring?
No, he said its a universal ring and it works with all platters. Thats why I believe, his design is wrong
He's definitely mistaken. VPI made it well known their ring worked only with certain, specific platters of theirs.
VPI made several platers 11.5 inch for the scout and 12 inch for the rest of their line, even then their ring, I believe, only worked with the platters with the grove, which I do not think the Waynes piece accommodates like the VPI does. A friend just purchase his series 2 here on Audiogon a few weeks ago and it rides higher on his VPI Scoutmaster forcing him to run a cart that isn't as wide and full bodied as his AT33.
The VPI ring will only work with their 12 inch platters as it uses the platter's side wall to center the ring. Universal rings require a centering tool to ensure that the ring's inner perimeter is equal distant from the spindle so that it engages the record's end.  Universal rings do not rely on the platter's side wall for centering, therefore, they can be used on any sized platter. 
audiofool1982
  ... After a lot of back and forth emails and phone calls I was able to get 50% of my money back. So in the end, I paid 50% of the cost for a product that I don't even have with me  ...
You've accepted an agreement so it's probably too late now, but you could almost certainly have had these charges reversed by your bank's credit card servicing arm. I've done this on a few occasions (not involving audio) and it's very effective.
audiofool1982

"I was misled by those videos and ended up buying one. In my humble opinion, you are better off with no ring, than a ring that’s not the same size as your platter."


So easily done. I’m sorry for your troubles but yeah, it’s all too easy to fall for this kind of stuff. I bet many of us have had similar disappointments. Unlucky with the return.

I hope Wayne’s Audio can chip in with a reply. Frankly their advert (and attitude) is far from convincing.

Was this the offending article? For $479.

https://www.waynesaudio.com/product-page/turntable-outer-ring-for-vpi-clearaudio-basis-kronos-hanss-...

I always feel wary whenever I see advertisements/reviews (often the same thing) for improved mats for turntables such as the Technics, Rega, Linn etc.

Such stuff is a great slap in the face to the manufacturers. I mean, maybe, just maybe just on the cheapest budget deck, but on a fully kitted LP12? Or 1200G? Rega 10?

Or any Rega/Technics/Linn etc for that matter??

Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience, it may save others from being left with a sour taste in their mouth.
Sorry for your problem and loss of money, but there were red flags from the get go.
You have a VPI turntable. You searched for a cheaper alternative to what the turntable manufacturer makes because it was more than you were willing to spend. You found a 'universal' ring from a guy you'd be never had dealings with, so you wisely went on a VPI forum to ask about it. There you found a fellow VPI owner who had direct knowledge and experience with the ring you were considering. He flat out told you he was not happy with it and cited a quality issue.
For some reason you took his comment 'with a grain of 'salt' and chose to disregard his direct experience and order it anyway because the guy selling them assured you they were fine. Am I missing something here?
In my experience, going cheap always cost you more in the end. Especially after you were very succinctly warned.
@thecarpathian 
"In my experience, going cheap always cost you more in the end."  Well yes and no in my humble opinion.

"Especially after you were very succinctly warned."  Oh yeah!
You're right jetter,
for me going cheap always cost me more in the long run if I try to fix something I have no business attempting except my ego tells me I can.
Most of the time I screw it up more and it cost me more to have it fixed than if I would have left it to the professionals in the first place. I should have likened ordering that universal part to buying a car part on the cheap that wasn't oem. 
No good can come of it, especially concerning a piece of delicate and expensive audio equipment.
@jetter  and thecarpathian, yes you guys are totally right. It was foolish on my part to fall for this. Not only do I not have ring now, also lost my money and shipping cost to top it all off. 

Now I'll be more careful and this is a lesson for me thats for sure. The intention of my article is to warn others.
Well, lesson learned and wiser for it.
You're certainly not alone in that. I've made some doozies in my time...

audiophool1982,

I look at it quite differently. I am also very sorry for your loss of money, as you trusted this man, but in the end, you lost some money, but by his dishonest ways, he lost something far more valuable...his reputation. I hope that he enjoys the few hundred dollars that he pilfered from you with a phony story of porch theft. 


Post removed 
I’m sorry to hear about your experience, but your story assumes that the vendor lied about the item NOT being received.    Your failure in not having the item requiring a signature and insurance cost both you and the vendor money.  
There is currently a genuine VPI ring on USAM, asking price $500.
testpilot,
I don't know if the op insured the package. If he did, that would be grounds for a claim wouldn't it? Still, I believe a good merchant would have taken the hit.
roxy54, the OP on another forum confirmed that he did not insure the item, nor did he specify that a signature was required. The vendor was willing to take back the item and refund 100% of the money upon receipt of the returned goods. The ring went “missing” and the vendor agreed to refund the OP 50% and the vendor is still out the sold goods.  
I think you have 6 months to have paypal or your credit card company cancel that transaction.Also, always use signature required when shipping. 2 times the buyer tried to tell me they didn’t receive the product and then I sent them the signature doc from the delivery company and then the buyer backed off, if I didn’t have that, they would have asked for the money back stating they never received it. IMO, their are products that are better than what the manufacturer provides, power cables for example. I know other people that have purchased tt rings from 3rd parties that are happy with them, so maybe this Wayne’s audio company just makes an inferior product, but that shouldn’t restrict you from buying other products from 3rd parties
Testpilot,
roxy54, the OP on another forum confirmed that he did not insure the item, nor did he specify that a signature was required. The vendor was willing to take back the item and refund 100% of the money upon receipt of the returned goods. The ring went “missing” and the vendor agreed to refund the OP 50% and the vendor is still out the sold goods.  
Gotcha, but I still think that he would have looked better by going above and beyond and eating it. That's what exceptional businesses do.
Post removed 
Hi,
This is Wayne, Wayne’s Audio.
This man brought an outer ring from me about 40 days ago. After he received the ring, he asked to return the ring, and I agreed.
But he did not give any information after he shipped, if he give me tracking number at that time I will definitely be waiting for it at my company. And after 1 week he said the return item arrived and want the refund. And he said he added the signature request, but
I still have not received the ring.
Of course, with no signature and no post notice sticker on my door, and I didn’t receive the item, I am still waiting for the item. He said the tracking number said the item arrived, but he can not provide me with the name and address of who he mailed to, so I thought he may have sent to a wrong address or some thing.....?

Then after couple of days, I still have not received the return item.
After consideration, l can help to share some of his loss, so I refund him half the cost first, then let’s see what happens in the future, if I get the ring back, I will refund him the other half and if he received the returned item, just ship back to me again and he will get his full refund.
Hope he can understand.

More than half of my customers who uses VPI turntable say the ring works great, flattens your records, protects your cartridge, and improves your listening experience. you can definitely hear the difference when an outer ring is applied.

Yes, you can pay $1200 for VPI ring or $1350 for Clearaudio ring.


My Outer ring is universal and fully comparable with their originally ring; mine can also fit other brand’s platter too. I am the manufacture and I directly sell to the consumers, no middleman. So The rings cost only half of their price but the effect is the same.

I have great customer's feedback on eBay,Audiogon & Audio Mart,  please review them.

Thanks 

Wayne 

Waynesaudio.com




Well.
Now there is that....
Though it is a buyers responsibility to insure the ring fits his particular platter (as brf---the main man on the VPI Forum---said, VPI has made platters in both 11.5" and 12" diameters), shouldn’t the maker of the ring---designed especially for VPI’s---know which platters his ring fits, and make that info available to the public? That would save he and his customers this kind of hassle.
Response to Wayne's audio:

I sent you the USPS tracking number. If you plug in this tracking number on their website, it will only show which city and zip code it was delivered to (for security reasons, they dont display the name and exact address of the receiver). This is not something I am making up, anyone can vouch for this.

 However, if you take the tracking number to a USPS location, and give it to a supervisor, they can pull up the name of the person it was sent to and the exact address. I did this on my end and the supervisor confirmed that it was sent to Wayne's address. I asked Wayne to do the same, but he refuses to do it and still claims I sent it to the wrong address.

I don't know what else to say. I am sure he is refusing to do this because it will prove that he is a fraud. For what its worth, if he feels all this negative publicity is worth the 350 dollars he cheated off of me, so be it.

The purpose of this writeup is to have the future wayne's audio customers think twice before buying Wayne's audio products. 
When I return an item to a manufacturer especially when the item is faulty (in this case, the dent), I didn't think it was my responsibility to pay
1. Return shipping
2. Insure the item again
3. Request signature

Usually the manufacturer sends a return label and I ship it. However in this case, because I wanted a refund, I acknowledged to pay for return shipping. I've not had any bad experiences with USPS so didnt even really think it was necessary to re-insure the item again.

What I didnt realize at that point was - Wayne's audio could be a fraud and lie about receiving the item. Had I known, I'd have requested signature proof. Again a valuable, expensive lesson learned. And hope others learn from my experience too.
audiofool1982,
There is one discrepancy in his account. He says that you told him that you did add signature request. Is that not true?
I also understand that you didn't think that it was your responsibility to insure it, but I always do, because stuff happens, and it doesn't cost much.
I told him that I did NOT add signature request. Because I didnt expect this would happen. Infact that was our back and forth argument. He kept asking me why I did not add signature required. 

The fact that I did not add "signature required" helped him to carry out this scam.
It bees that way sometimes.
@bdp24 wrote
Though it is a buyers responsibility to insure the ring fits his particular platter (as brf---the main man on the VPI Forum---said, VPI has made platters in both 11.5" and 12" diameters), shouldn’t the maker of the ring---designed especially for VPI’s---know which platters his ring fits, and make that info available to the public? That would save he and his customers this kind of hassle.
Unlike the VPI periphery ring that relies on the platter's side wall to center the disc on the platter, the Wayne's ring employs a centering tool that allows the ring to be placed on the record's edge.  The Wayne's ring can be use with any platter diameter (universal) whereas the VPI ring can only be used with their 12" platter.
Well then, if the Wayne's ring doesn't use the platter edge to secure it in place (as does the VPI), there is nothing to keep it from sliding around on an 11.5" platter when the latter is spinning, which is just what the OP discovered. Sounds like a fatally flawed product! Glad the OP posted this: I was thinking of getting one for my 11.5" TNT-5 platter. For some reason, VPI never made a ring for that size platter (afaik).
Yes, its a flawed product and thats the point I was trying to make and wanted to return the product for a refund for that reason.
Seems like several missteps here.  

How about you have the USPS supervisor print out the COMPLETE tracking info.  Send it to Wayne.  And ask Wayne why he did not report the theft to the local police? I would suspect that being in business he would regularly be shipping and receiving and have a good handle on his
delivery point for your item. Just sayin'.
If I understand correctly, the vendor claims " More than half of my customers who uses VPI turntable say the ring works great"...
What about the other half? It doesn't work great for them?
@barts I asked for the supervisor to print it out on my end. She said she wouldn't be able to give me a print out, but she said if Wayne goes to his post office and just gives them the tracking number, they should just be able to read out the name and address it was sent to. He is refusing to do that (not sure why). But you are right, I never asked him if he filed a police report. I am going to send an email today asking if he filed a police report. If he is not willing to do that, that clearly means he is trying to hide something. And yes if he regularly ships and receives stuff world wide, I am sure he must have a good handle on these things.

@zigggi - GREAT QUESTION! lets see if he can come with an answer.






He could mean that more than half of his customers use VPI turntables,
Not half of his VPI customers are happy with it.
audiofool1982,

"I don’t know what else to say. I am sure he is refusing to do this because it will prove that he is a fraud. For what its worth, if he feels all this negative publicity is worth the 350 dollars he cheated off of me, so be it.

The purpose of this writeup is to have the future wayne’s audio customers think twice before buying Wayne’s audio products."


Bad situation, with no winners. Good of Wayne to give his side of the story.

On the other hand even if it was stolen, improbable but who knows, what would the thief do with it?

Sell it on via Audiogon/eBay??

Looking at it, as Wayne mentions, the original ring does seem to be a tad overpriced for what it is. Is VPI now reading the Linn book of consumer strategy?

https://www.musicdirect.com/analog-accessories/vpi-periphery-outer-ring-clamp

I could probably buy a set of alloy wheels and tyres for less. Or even a whole car. Not to mention an entirely respectable turntable.

Anyway, good luck with your efforts.
Many of us have been bitten similarly but failed to pursue it.

Which is exactly what some unscrupulous traders might be counting on.

The best of all worlds would be a satisfactory resolution for both sides and for Wayne to produce a turntable ring in future which sonically equals its far more costly counterpart.






@bdp24 wrote

Well then, if the Wayne's ring doesn't use the platter edge to secure it in place (as does the VPI), there is nothing to keep it from sliding around on an 11.5" platter when the latter is spinning, which is just what the OP discovered. Sounds like a fatally flawed product! Glad the OP posted this: I was thinking of getting one for my 11.5" TNT-5 platter. For some reason, VPI never made a ring for that size platter (afaik).


I have no direct experience with Wayne's rings, but "Universal" periphery rings are not totally flawed. If the periphery ring is completely concentric and balanced, the outward force away for the center of rotation (spindle) will be equal around the ring's circumference (offsetting opposing forces), therefore, preventing movement even on a frictionless surface.  Most issues with "universal" rings can be eliminated with the careful application and use of the centering tool required to center the ring to balance the forces. 

With respect to cost of manufacturing a periphery ring, please note that to produce a ring you must start off with a solid piece off material and remove approximately 90% of the material.  Machining is quite complex to ensure the required tolerances and to prevent warping. The former TTW Audio, who manufactured universal rings and whose primary business was precision parts for the aerospace industry chronicled in great depth the machining challenges of periphery rings.
I have met Wayne and he is an upstanding, honest person.  His depth of knowledge is great and he is a very genuine person.  I have serious doubts that he has intentionally done anything dubious.  Further, his products are well made and at the prices he offers they are a very good value (relative to the high priced models offered from other brands).  As others have stated, Wayne's ring is universal and not turntable/platter specific.  Properly set on the LP, by using the supplied centering tool, and this very well machined & balanced periphery ring will perform as specified.  I would suggest contacting Wayne once again and discussing any and all options.  As I stated, he is an upstanding and honest person.
@mammothguy54 if he is not dubious, why is he refusing to go to the post office to give them the tracking number and confirm the address? After several text messages and calls with him, he still believes I sent it the wrong address. Infact I can give anyone the tracking number to make sure it was sent to him (they can confirm)

I sent him an email yesterday about why he hasnt reported a theft to the police, if he believes its a theft. he hasnt responded back and he blocked my phone number. What more proof do I want to believe that he is a fraud.
Post removed 
  1. @audiofool1982
Anything new to report?
No updates. He never responded to the email I sent a couple of days ago.
Post removed 
Lets bad rap the dude big time.
audiofool1982
"Although I sent him proof that the ring was sent to the right address and was delivered he said it was probably stolen from his front porch "
wchuang868
"I will definitely be waiting for it at my company."

How many companies have a front porch ?

Place a complaint with the local or state better bussiness bureau .