oops, an-e already there right in middle of list, so “I concur”
Seeking advice on Speakers that create an intimate 2 channel listening experience
So the past month I started a couple of threads on speaker choice on AVS forum (One asked for Powered/Active floor standing Speaker choices and another one around non-active FS speakers for a tube amp I was looking at).
But I've come to realize this was the wrong tact, got lots of flack much deserved and wanted to try to solicit the advice/opinions on this forum which I just discovered.
Short background...Hunkered down in a suburb just outside NYC now for the past 3-4 months, I started to get the itch for a dedicated 2 channel stereo Turntable setup in our living room in May. After much research and twists and turns and immediate upgraditis, as some know on here from other posts, I've finally settled in and now own a Rega Planar 10 Turntable. I also own a Sutherland phono --20/20 with LPS and that's staying. Right now the phono preamp is hooked up direct to a pair of ELAC ARF51 floorstanding speakers (all drivers powered by built in AB amps) which I like a lot BUT ITS HERE THAT I WANT MORE. Btw, I love the ELAC design of mounting the tweeter concentric in the mid driver -- makes sense to me. I kinda wish ELAC would take the same design and make a reference speaker but thats for another day.
So to swap out the ELACs, I will obviously need an amp, but I will figure that out later and want to focus on getting the right speakers for me for what I want. So what do I want?
1. Floorstanders. Close to full range as possible. No subs.
2. Looks count since in my main living room.
3. Speakers that prioritize Imaging Imaging Imaging. That disappear in the room creating an intimate but 3D listening experience. Clean (Accurate) warm sound. No distortion. I would easily sacrifice low end for untiring highs and warm mids I don't listen to metal or hiphop anymore so I don't need loudness, more like lounge experience if that makes sense. Apologize if I got the adjectives wrong but its personal description of what I'm seeking.
4. Price Point - -$10k-25k. Room is 22x18 with 25 foot ceiling
I would like to audition/demo before I buy and since I live in the Tri-State area it should be possible. But I'm finding that obviously difficult to do right now. I listened to a pair of Salk speakers but didn't love them. And have an appt with the Audio Doctor in NJ in two weeks.
Thanks in advance.
But I've come to realize this was the wrong tact, got lots of flack much deserved and wanted to try to solicit the advice/opinions on this forum which I just discovered.
Short background...Hunkered down in a suburb just outside NYC now for the past 3-4 months, I started to get the itch for a dedicated 2 channel stereo Turntable setup in our living room in May. After much research and twists and turns and immediate upgraditis, as some know on here from other posts, I've finally settled in and now own a Rega Planar 10 Turntable. I also own a Sutherland phono --20/20 with LPS and that's staying. Right now the phono preamp is hooked up direct to a pair of ELAC ARF51 floorstanding speakers (all drivers powered by built in AB amps) which I like a lot BUT ITS HERE THAT I WANT MORE. Btw, I love the ELAC design of mounting the tweeter concentric in the mid driver -- makes sense to me. I kinda wish ELAC would take the same design and make a reference speaker but thats for another day.
So to swap out the ELACs, I will obviously need an amp, but I will figure that out later and want to focus on getting the right speakers for me for what I want. So what do I want?
1. Floorstanders. Close to full range as possible. No subs.
2. Looks count since in my main living room.
3. Speakers that prioritize Imaging Imaging Imaging. That disappear in the room creating an intimate but 3D listening experience. Clean (Accurate) warm sound. No distortion. I would easily sacrifice low end for untiring highs and warm mids I don't listen to metal or hiphop anymore so I don't need loudness, more like lounge experience if that makes sense. Apologize if I got the adjectives wrong but its personal description of what I'm seeking.
4. Price Point - -$10k-25k. Room is 22x18 with 25 foot ceiling
I would like to audition/demo before I buy and since I live in the Tri-State area it should be possible. But I'm finding that obviously difficult to do right now. I listened to a pair of Salk speakers but didn't love them. And have an appt with the Audio Doctor in NJ in two weeks.
Thanks in advance.
223 responses Add your response
Some OP nostalgia.... Around 1991 after I graduated college, I bought my first pair of speakers at the Listening Room in Scarsdale NY. There I auditioned, eyes closed, 4 sets of speakers all in the same price range -- Thiel, Mirage, Snell and Def Tech BP10. I don’t remember the model numbers for the first 3, because I wound up buying the BP10’s. That bipolar sound, whether a gimic or not, had me at hello some 30 years ago. I think the other 3 are no longer making speakers and Def Tech has cheapened their line in my opinion since the 1990’s. The Listening Room closed up shop years ago. Times change, but I’d like to do a similar thing with at least 4 speakers again. P.S. I paired it with a Pioneer Elite receiver from the Listening Room (I think Dolby Surround had just been introduced), and that receiver was a tank, it was beautiful and never an issue (It was over $1k at the time) so I kept it for 30 years, rarely used, and only recently gave it away in full working order. |
Charney Audio in Somerset NJ will give you exactly what your looking for. Engage in intimate 3D listening with articulate bass from a well designed and constructed work of art. If you drive or take mass transit Charney will accommodate you. Contact Brian and set up an appointment it will be well worth your time. http://charneyaudio.com/ |
At your price range you would be hard pressed to pick a BAD speaker. Imaging was your dominant concern and goal, imaging can be found in dealer showrooms. So I would go to as many show rooms as possible and listen for the speakers imaging. basically road trip Please take notes, is the imaging forward or is deep, how many subs were used during test and rate their looks and get their minimum distance from back and side walls and lastly how big are they. All these issues and possible more impact your enjoyment after your purchase. Once you make your choice you will now have to find the optimal location for your room. This is not simple or quick and I would recommend dealer help. I would also recommend looking at MiniDsp.com, Their products will help dialing your system in for your room, and any dealer worth their salt will know how to use this tool. At your price range your music source will play a major role in your enjoyment. The major problems with an excellent system is that you can actually hear more than before including all the issues related to bad recordings. I would highly recommend an external dac as part of your system. the RME ADI-2 DAC is a good reference point to evaluate dacs. If HDMI is needed look at the Bryston Dacs which is one of a few that offers and HDMI connection. Biggest point is, your Room is 50% of what you hear from your system, getting your system setup in your room is critical to getting the best sound out of any system. As for a speaker recommendation that would be Ohm Walsh https://ohmspeaker.com/speakers/beta/ They are known for their imaging and sound no matter where you are standing or setting, a rarity for a lot of speakers. They also have their own sub line. Also you can call them and they will help dial in your speaker to your room ( based on shape and cubic volume) before it is shipped. Also the allow you a 120 trail period to make sure they work for you. Style is it only weakness for some people. Good luck in your quest. Enjoy the Music |
How about a JBL Paragon? Pair with McIntosh C-28 and MP-2105 and you have the looks and the sound - timeless... https://www.flickr.com/gp/dlmcats/QD9Xu4 https://www.flickr.com/gp/dlmcats/P978w4 |
AJ523, I am not surprised that you like your ELAC's so much. Andrew Jones designs superb speakers - he used to work for TAD (and designed they're (forgot the model) reference speakers - cost $80,000 at the time - which are still considered some of the best speakers ever made. He also had a long tenure with KEF, and helped with the design of their (famous!) concentric tweeter. If you'd like to stick with active speakers - (and you are so right about this!), I suggest the ELAC NAVIS ARB51 ($16k/pr). Otherwise, I agree with the recommendation of the Goldenear Triton Reference - they are also active 'speakers, with 1800 watts of internal amplification, and very smart use of passive radiators (in lieu of a conventional bass-reflex port, which always suffers from some 'chaffing noise'. Otherwise, I do agree that bookshelf speakers tend to 'disappear' in the room more so than Floorstanders; I recommend you check out the new Magico S1's (A bookshelf model, cost (give or take) $12,600/pr, which is within your budget. Cheers, Yuval. |
@yuvalg9 Thx Yuval. I should have been more specific but I do currently own the Navis ARF51 which is an active but all analog designed tower for $4600 pair. You cited the ARB51 which is the smaller bookshelf at $2,300 a pair not $16,000 lol. I even reached out to Mr. Jones to see if he had any interest in designing a no compromise Reference Navis model but never heard back. I’m familiar with Triton but they are not an all active design just the subwoofer is powered which is pretty common these days. In fact it was Sandy Gross owner of Triton who designed one of the first powered sub enclosed tower speakers with passive radiators when he owned Def Tech. Cheers |
Some people here have suggested used speakers. I have gotten some fantastic speakers at some crazy good low prices. Especially when it's the exwife or daughter selling off there hubby's or dads stuff.Craigslist,letgo I have found speakers Allison's,Klipsch, Martin Logans ,Jbls,Polk,Tannoy,Kef,SonusFaber,B&W and many more at crazy prices.True some,need a wire soldered, or Surrounds replaces ,or need to be refinished but when you get a pair of speakers that list for thousands for less than $200 OR $100 or even FREE.Im not a person who would ever buy $250,000 even if I had the money.The joy in getting a pair cheap that sound good that's my thing. |
aj523, Do you like small, intimate music/jazz clubs? Do you prefer to sit mid-hall at a live music event? How about desiring to hear the music between the speakers (with depth and slightly beyond the outside of the speakers)? If you answered yes, then you owe it to yourself to hear a pair of used Spendor S8e speakers. I have two pair and I will never sell them. I've owned the Spendor SP-100, SP1/2e; heard a pair of SP2/3e, and others. I sold them all and kept only the SP1, and SP2/2. If you want the ultimate in imaging and intimacy but are willing to sacrifice low end impact, although bookshelves, the SP2/2 are terribly underrated. In my opinion, they deserve the cult following over the LS3/5A. I have the Harbeth HL5, which I do like for a couple of reasons, but they are overrated in some regard. However, I won't sell them because of their versatility. Well, I would sell them and one pair of my S8e's to help finance a pair of Tannoy Westminster Royal. If you can find a pair of the very musical and handsome Spendor S8e floor-standing speakers to start your experiment, try them out and you might just find another use for your hefty speaker budget. Good luck! :-) |
@limomangus It is crazy how discounted used speakers generally are, similar to a car once you drive it off the lot and then when start to add miles, especially when newer models come out. Case in point, Raidho speakers. People who can afford Raidho seem to typically trade after just a couple years as newer models come in and sell the older versions for like 60-70 percent off. Raidho D3.1's which are 70k speakers selling for under 25k on audiogon/ebay/hifishark. There's a guy on the same sites selling his 107k msrp YG Acoustics A Anat Reference II for 25k. And he lives on Long Island. I should just rent a Uhaul and be done with it. Lol . Of course its not without its risks. |
Most of those very expensive speakers are way over priced to begin with! Opened up a pair of B&W 801s many years ago and could not believe the cheap crossover parts used. Same for Snell CV awesome sound from vey poor parts and cheap drivers. Most of the cost for advertising, shows, dealer markup, are rolled into the high price tag. Then there is the psychological aspect of “Hmmm if they are that expensive they must be awesome...” My mantra is sift through the hype and always listen before you buy!!! |
At the $10-25k price point, I think aesthetics, service and how you connect with your dealer are just as important as the sound. Fortunately there are numerous dealers in the greater NYC area. The only question is how exhaustive you intend your search. I went to quite a few in NYC and the key thing for me was dealer rapport. You have to find someone you think gets your taste and whom you trust. |
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@roberjerman For some reason the admin deleted my response maybe because I cursed slightly but whatever. So while Quads were at the top of my list, there are 3 reasons why they won't work for me. 1. The Quads would be placed no more than 2-3 feet away from a back wall of all windows and I called Quad and their own technical guy told me, with this particular dipole design, it could be a huge mistake and didnt recommend that placement (but that's all that works in my room). 2. The used Quads like the 2912 and its smaller sibling had major issues and were falling apart so Quad had to fix probably everything imported into the US, and then stopped importing to fix the issue; I heard they will be importing again towards End of summer/Fall, so I wouldnt want to risk even $5k on a defective product even if refurbished. 3. Perhaps the biggest issue is that my fiancee took one look at them and said quote, "I'm pretty tolerant with all your audio stuff, but there is no way you are putting these things in my living room" unquote but with a few expletives left off. So maybe at some future point. |
Consider Magnanpan speakers! Choose to demo ones that fit your room! I use the 1.7i in a 15 x 30 dedicated and treated listening room. They are intimate enough to reach out and touch the instruments! I have a 2.1 set up that sounds stunning! Remember amplification and source is just as in important with any speakers you choose..let your ears be the judge! Good luck in your quest and keep us posted! |
I love my bi-amped Khorns, bought them new in 1978. I use a Mac 250 transistor amp for the bass (transistors are better for bass) and I swap between 4 different tube amps, (2 single ended, 2 push-pull) for the mid/highs. You will need an electronic crossover. I use a Crown VFX2a, works perfectly. You said you want speakers that disappear into the room. My set up will do it. There is no better sound in the world than a properly powered pair of Klipchhorns. Both single ended and push-pull tube amps work well. Overall, I prefer single ended. Lastly, you have the perfect room for this setup. Large area, tall ceilings. Good luck. Enjoy! |
I will spare you description because at your budget, you'd be less than diligent if you didn't listen to your choices in person. So without explanation, except I have been impressed with each. Each will deliver many of the goods you have listed as important to you. They are listed by price, not by my preference: All are dynamic speakers: Kef Blade 2 @25k Totem Element Metal V2 $15.5 Focal Sopra #3 12k |
I own Triton One speakers. With both vinyl (Technics 1200MK2) and CD (Marantz) I can close my eyes, I have no idea where the speakers are situated, and I can point to the instruments in the orchestra. Amazing soundstage. Supposedly the Triton One R is a bit of a step up, at $6,000 a pair. I listen through an old Sony receiver, which I am about to replace with a Rogue Audio Sphinx V3 ($1,595). My research says Rogue Audio amps and Triron One speakers sound lovely together. You could spend a lot less than you are thinking, and be very happy. |
I may be a little late to the game to add any meaningful advice, but incase You haven't made a decision yet..... Regarding the Quads and the Maggies, I, over the years, have owned and immensely enjoyed both. For 20 years I had as my primary speakers in three different homes a pair of Quad ESL 63s. Along with these speakers, I was continually trying other speakers. By comparison, I found that the earlier Magnapans sounded a bit thin and nearly every box speaker, compared with the Quads, lacked the breath taking realness through the vocals and mids. The Quad ESL actually favor a slightly bright wall behind them. In their first home, there was a very large window behind covered only with light sheer drapes and were about 36" from the wall behind and a little over 2' from the side walls. They sounded incredible. I only sold in Lue of a small set of dynamic speakers when work moved me into a much smaller living environment. I have been disillusioned by the new Quads, both by their manufacturing being moved to China and by their horrid record of reliability. My old ESL 63s had served without fail or fault for 20+ years and were still going strong when I sold them. A good or re-furbished pair of the Quad ESL 63s may be a good choice. Now retired and back into a larger home (listening room approx. 14'Wx27'L and 10'H) I decided to try a pair of the newer Maggie 1.7s and fell in love. Unlike the early Maggies that, to me, sounded a bit thin, the new .7 Quasi Ribbon models (.7. 1.7i, 3.7i) sound not only detailed with a large stage, but also sound full and musically engaging. My 1.7s are about 46" from the wall behind, but you could get by with 3' as long as you have a set of heavy drapes that can be pulled across your large window, when listening and a carpet or throw rug in front of ea. speaker. They do require a bit of experimenting with distance apart and toe in but when finally getting their set up tweaked, I don't believe there is anything at anywhere near their respective cost, that is as musically. engaging....Jim |
@jhills. Thanks I hope one day to acquire a top of the line pair of Maggies or Quads for my man cave. Right now there are way too many variables to make it happen in our main living room, but I appreciate your candor. I did get to hear the 1.7s earlier this week at a Wilson dealer in NYC and the sound was pleasant. |
@helomech Funny you should ask. Actually yesterday I visited Dave, the Audio Doctor in Jersey city at his crazy modern museum of audiophile systems. He had been shut down since March and just recently reopened. I listened to the top of the line Golden Ear towers, the gorgeous Legacy Aerus and a little known speaker from Long Island the Alta audio titanium Hesta. There were many others I wanted to hear such as the Paradigm Persona 9h and the kef ref 5 and blade but he just wasn’t operating full throttle yet so I promised to return. The Triton Reference were full bodied but not refined enough. Reminded me too much of Def tech. The Aerus were physically gorgeous but way too much base for me. It was intense. The Alta Hesta were a game changer. They defined imaging + transparency/clarity = massive 3D soundstage. I loved them but worry too much about the dipole in my living room. My first visit that day was to Verdant Audio in lower Jersey City overlooking WTC Freedom Tower and their AvanteGarde XD Passive. My first horn loaded system and the mids and highs draw you in like no speaker I’ve ever heard. Female vocals were captivating. And an absolutely gorgeous modern piece of art. Overwhelming. |
Focal Sopra 1 and 2 are fantastic, and Ensemble Ondiva - these blew me away at Munich HiFi 2019. If you are looking for an intimate speaker it may not get better than these at any price. They are not floorstanders however, they fill a room and are really big (in sound) for monitors. Highly recommend giving them a try! |
Two more to consider: Avalon Acoustics- A close friend of mine has the Indra Diamond, which is above your budget I believe, but the Eidolan is not. These are really beautiful - probably need some power to drive however. Acoustic Zen - I have the Adagio Jr. in my second system, and love then. That’s way under your budget, and not a floorstander, but the Crescendo II is just under the top of your budget. |
So the other night I put on Springsteen The Ghost of Tom Joad. Several of these like Highway 29 are pretty much just Bruce sitting there playing his string guitar. The sound is exactly that, as if Bruce is right there in the room. Could hardly be more intimate. Then I put on Doug MacLeod, Exactly Like This. Same thing, very intimate, like he's right there. Right size, right everything. Nancy Bryan, Lay Me Down, holy smokes! Not all of them are small and intimate, but the ones that are wow, never heard better. So what are these speakers that create such a wonderully intimate 2 channel listening experience? Tekton Moabs. Just get em. |
+1 on Focal Sopra. I have not heard all models but those that I’ve heard has been great. Their Kanta 3 is also good at around $13k. Another brand to try is Fyne with Fyne F701 for about $12k or the F1 which may cost from $24k up to $30k. I’ve heard the F701 and it images great! I have also listened to some cheaper models and they were very good for their price. https://stereo-magazine.com/review/fyne-audio-f1-10-review |
