Raven Audio and Beyond...

Your Dynaudio speakers are only 85dB sensitivity. The Raven is an outstanding amp. I have The Blackhawk, and would wholeheartedly recommend either Nighthawk or Blackhawk as your "end game" amp. 

Which to do first, hard to say that it matters. Your Dynaudio are only 85dB sensitivity, which is very low to be using with the 20W Raven. HOWEVER, we had some 87dB speakers here and running with my Blackhawk in my room (bigger than yours) they CAME ALIVE with the Blackhawk! We had no problem reaching a very satisfying volume level. So if you do decide to get the amp first you can look on the bright side and finally hear the Dynaudio sound their very best. Just bearing in mind having to crank the volume up a lot and not listen to them "loud" loud but just pleasingly loud, if you get my drift.

Then in terms of speakers if you can match the Raven up with Tekton Double Impact, now you are talking some incredible good sound for very reasonable money. 

Downside of doing speakers first is like this. The Raven will make your current speakers sound fantastic. But the DI will not make your amp sound fantastic, or anything else for that matter, they will instead let you hear exactly what they sound like. Which may not be that good. But a lot of people hear the sound coming out of the speakers, and credit (or blame) the speakers. 

So brace yourself for the reality that your big speaker upgrade (if it is to good speakers like Tekton) reveals as many faults as strengths. I have seen it before, people blame the speakers for the stuff connected to the speakers.

Also the backlog on a Raven is way less than the waiting list on Tekton. So you can get the Raven now, then order the DI and by the time they are ready you will be too?

The only other amp I could recommend in your situation would be the Decware integrated. But Steve's wait list is a year+, and his amp is low power and so absolutely needs you to have the high sensitivity speakers first. 

You have lots of choices. Raven and Tekton are just two. Open up to a much wider range of possibilities than some hyper limited sample size audiophile might suggest, including those who have owned both Raven and Tekton…. and moved on…for a variety of reasons…

First some questions… how loud  do you listen ? do you have a separate phono preamp ? what is your streamer ? Cartridge? …

Enjoy the journey ;-)

BTW, i hear a lovely Dynaudio / sub system with a VTL tube integrated , MoFi Ultradeck and a Directstream DAC every week at my brother in laws..lovely musical system…. Like i said, you have many fine choices..

Jim

If you want to fly with a Raven Nighthawk or Blackhawk you will need new speakers. No matter what James tells you.

May want to look at the Celest speakers from Raven. A friend has them with the Blackhawk and they rock.

Neither the Nighthawk nor Blackhawk will work for any speaker less than 90 db and 8 ohm. I know because I owned a Blackhawk. However, if you decide to get higher efficiency speakers, Raven is a very good and competitive option. It has a refined and sweet sound that will surely appeal to many. 
 

VTL on the other hand will drive those speakers without breaking a sweat. 

@tomic601 "You have lots of choices. Raven and Tekton are just two."

+100 on this comment. These products are not singletons in their suits, they exemplify design principles and they have a happy synergy. But these qualities can be found in other brands and makers that aren't as "hot." Other posters will propose worthy substitutes for Tekton and Raven, I'm sure. In 3...2...1...

Funny, i am running a full range 87 db efficient speaker with a 52 wpc tube amp in a big room..hence my question to the OP..how loud ?  Advice without context is just about as bad as recommendation for gear never heard….or was it herd ?

All good ;-)   Carry on, enjoy the music. i have a hot date w Lucinda Williams and some warmed up 6L6GC

My best to those with open mind…and ears, check ego at door

James is what the Robot remembers mad parents..yelling..

@tomic601 man, I love your sign offs 😁

Okay,

My main intent here is to get perspective and there's helpful content here.  I know this is a process for me.  Heck, took me about four years to get to this point, LOL

MC, you catch what I'm putting down.  Trying to understand the walk I'm talking.  If I spend now, what to upgrade first and then go to next; what am I going to encounter in the process.  I appreciate the technical take on what challenges I'd have for the short term running the X14s through the Raven. Vice versa on a speaker upgrade first.

Tomic, I play music quiet for background and loud to be overwhelmed; lots in between.  My musical tastes are wide.  Very wide.  So a comprehensive sound is key to me.  I play music saved on a hard drive as aiff files saved 32 bit/44.1mhz.  The P2 has an ortofon Blue cartridge.  I rely on the DAC for the generic explorations of my interests through Amazon Music.  Buy CDs/vinyl that I want to hear further.

Your brother in-law's setup is an approach I've considered.  Not dead either.  A decent integrated, a few subs w a dedicated amp, and slowly evolve from there.  The impetus for this post is considering the major jump/plunge into the amp/speaker question from where I'm at. 

Why Raven?  Intuition, research on company integrity and interest, reading insightful intel from coots on these threads, 45 day take back, connection to a decent audio store in town to try out speakers and an interest in settling in.

Both MC and Tomic, your input on the Raven's volume/impact limits for the interim between X14s and other speakers are helpful.  My understanding of the wattage/decibel sensitivity correlation is pretty bleak.  Hinders my application set.

Still like listening to good sounds though, so...

Jerry, I do plan on other speakers in the endgame.  Figuring out how to get where I'm interested in going.

mijale,  consider sending a message to member rixthetrick and get his independent assessment of how the Blackhawk sounded with his speakers versus the amp that he owns, I believe they are the 87db speakers referred to by millercarbon. 

Yep, those are the ones. If you want I will be happy to provide contact info for ALL those here at Chuxpona21™ who heard them. 

First, good for you on the  dac and the hard drive, there is a world, indeed WORLDs of music out there…besides the LP. Properly implemented subs with a high pass filter on the main amp can be magic for sure.  

Don’t underestimate Mike Moffat at Schitt…. You might wanna read his and Jason book….

Anyway, i’ve taken up too much of your time..enjoy the music…

James

Speakers or Int Amp huh? You say

Currently, I have a Bifrost 2 Dac, Rega P2 turntable and Dynaudio X14s running out a cheap integrated Pioneer tuner/amplifier.

Given those 2 that you have listed, its a NO BRAINER to me. I certainly would not try to build a system around a cheap integrated Pioneer tuner/amplifier. It is likely the weakest link. But then I’ve never heard a Pioneer I liked. I don’t know your budget but the Ravens start somewhere near $3K.

That could buy a nice tube integrated amp like a Rogue  Cronus Magnum III which offers 100 wpc from a tube amp. yes, I like the Raven but not w/85db speakers

For me, I learned from my mistakes in this hobby....pick a speaker and then match the amp.  Amps are easy compared to finding a speaker to your tastes.  Raven is an outstanding product and I owned the Raven Reflection MK2.  If you are sold on Rave as an amp, I really think you should talk to Raven about their speaker line-up.  I have heard Raven amps paired to the Celest'.  It was pretty damn good. 

@willgolf 

For me, I learned from my mistakes in this hobby....pick a speaker and then match the amp.

Generally I would agree with you. This is the general thought when building a system from scratch. But not necessarily true  when trying to maybe rectify mistakes. He is not building from scratch. He is remodeling the system. As I said, his speakers are of much better quality than the "Cheap Pioneer and make for a better base at this point. Trying to drive good speakers thru that "cheap Pioneer" is a heartache in the making. Besides,He can always upgrade later. And if he buys used he can recoup a lot of his $$$

I am in the speakers first camp. Reason being the room acoustics are the hardest thing to change/fix so you have to get the speaker room integration right first then find the amp best suited for the speakers.

Modest power Tube amps will work and may sound good but Dynaudios are not designed for use with tube amps. They tend to like beefy high current SS amps for best performance.  I’d consider any of the  various high quality Class D amps around these days as a good match with Dynaudios.   I have run that combo in my house for a number of years and can vouch for it   

OP … Listen to the impartial unbiased advice given by @tomic601 ​​@arafiq ​​​​​@jerryg123 earlier in this thread

Something to consider in picking a speaker first. There are a lot of amps, yes. Depending on your choice of speaker however you may wind up with virtually zero amps to choose from. Or very poor choices. Search around for all the time and trouble people have had taking this approach. If all you do is consider the speaker then at least be intelligent about it and exclude from consideration anything below about 92dB, as anything below this and you quickly run into a situation where only 100+ watt amps will do.

The Raven Blackhawk is a truly fine amp. As it turns out, a lot of the very best sounding amps are even lower power. There are some pretty fine amps in the 50-60 watt range as well. Above there and it gets real hard (read, expensive) real fast to find quality sound in 100 watt and up amps. Real hard. A lot of us would say impossible. No matter how much money you have to throw at it.

Being on a budget it is simply not responsible to say pick a speaker without making this tradeoff as clear as can be. 

Stick with speakers in the mid-90's and up sensitivity wise, and you will find it very easy (read, affordable) to find a truly high quality amp to drive them. 

I would say without a doubt given your current setup the Raven with your current speakers will sound a lot better than the other way around doing the speaker first. Way better. Like no contest.

Blah …. Blah ….Blah … Page 001 Condescension ….Blah… Blah…. Blah

Well Ralph, Thats your MA series OTL’s on the Naughty Step then @atmasphere

Most of your responses are helpful.

To you all, I hope it came through that I wonder and appreciate insight rather than a commitment to some folly knucklehead charge into wastes.

Understanding what sensitivity means in matching up with an amp helps.  Definitely was beyond my understanding, but I see it's importance in matching up the relationship between amp and speakers.  I like lightbulbs. 

I think a couple of you are not understanding this key point:  The next two moves, amp and speakers, will take me some time.  Maybe a year or two.  No joke.  I have approx. 3-5k willing to appropriate at this time.

MC, I caught what you were getting at last night about matching amp and speakers.  In regards to your post here a bit ago, it makes sense.  Satisfaction with any upgrade in the shortterm, you see the amp, a good amp, the Raven in question, with more return than going after speakers first.

Toomic, the considerations for a smaller step into a less robust amp, bump with a couple subs and go from there is on the table.  In the terms of longterm planning, I may be making too big a jump going after such a hi-end amp to basically wait for me to catch up, lol.  I know you didn't outright point this out, but it is coming up as I consider the entire mix.   I looked up what a high pass filter is.  Seems useful where/when needed.   Not sure where/when or what conditions in audio playback require that piece.

Mapman, I'm not attached to Dyns.  Just have the X14s, for now.  Your words about speaker first echo lots of the points others have shared throughout all kinds of posts similar to my own queries.  MCs points help me see what a good amp with the speakers I have would do. Within limits. Helpful, yeah or do you disagree that a good set of speakers would showcase the limited amp moreso?

Artemus, yeah, this Pioneer is truly the current weakest link. 

tsushima1, what's your deal? You've not offered up experience/insight helpful to me. I can distinguish between opinion, info, and guidance. Your posts fall flat at all three. Not that I doubt you know something, but you've not provided any content. Makes me wonder what your deal is. No offense meant here.

@mijale

If it were me I would do the homework up front to identify what you envision your end system to be and then move towards that. You have prettty good speakers to work with and a lesser amp it seems. Any amp upgrade should be a step in the right direction. The amp should then be A key factor in determining speaker options. There are many possibilities depending on personal preference. The devil is always in the details. A lesser power tube amp will limit speaker choices for optimal performance but that may be fine as long as you take that into consideration.

Absolutely no worries whatsoever @mijale 

What I find disconcerting about your post being that I rather suspect that you know very fine and well that your speakers of choice are not a suitable match for a 20 Watt stereo amplifier yet you appear to allow yourself to be enchanted in the BS peddled by MC that ( for reasons an enquiring mind may speculate upon)  

Kids think you all may be interested in a YT video that should hit on 1/1/22 by @upscaleaudio. Kevin is going to do a detailed comparison on Raven and Prima Luna.

Now I know this may not be in the context of the OP but it may give some insight to the build quality of the Raven vs PL.

I have no dog in this fight but the video may be enlightening or a bust?

Another thing to know is that the Raven includes an on board high pass filter to the mains set at 80 hz.  This would provide quite a boost in available power to your x14s that are not "full range" speakers.  Then pair an affordable sub or two.  Which BTW would have likely helped all along.

To be clearer, the Raven's HP filter is selectable on the back.  

@tsushima1 you have to realize this thread is more about validation of a preconceived idea. You’re simply wasting your time trying to shine a light on reality … ie 20 watts are 20 watts. Heck they’re not even pure class A tube watts. If someone wants to sacrifice excellent speakers from a well respected manufacturer at the altar of flea watt amps there’s not much you can do. Sometimes the best way to learn is the hard way. So hail Raven Audio! Best amp regardless of price.

there”s an excellent discussion from a few months ago where the gentleman bought a Blackhawk to drive his not-so-efficient speakers. Everyone tried to tell him that 20 watts are 20 watts no matter what someone says. He bought it, realized his mistake and moved on to a solid state amp pretty quickly.

The Raven will be a huge, massive upgrade to what you have now, with virtually no downsides. It will be plenty of power, not enough to party loud or blast yourself out of the room, but with that caveat still definitely plenty of power, not at all something you are wishing every day for more.

Your plan for system development is music to my ears. This is basically the way I have done it, certainly the way I started. One major component every year or three. No baby steps, each one a major improvement, the kind of thing many audiophiles would say is out of balance or not matched. So? If you are building a system the smart way to do it is great strides. This means there will be times you have something that seems way out of line with the rest of your system. A Raven will tower over everything you have right now. But then over time as you gradually improve speakers, source, cables etc it will come more and more into balance.

The one time I didn't do that was interestingly enough my current Blackhawk. Before that I had a Melody I880 integrated. The Blackhawk certainly is better. But not great strides better. Incrementally. Worth it, but kind of a place holder. What you want do is avoid incremental improvement, at least in components. In tweaks, fine. Incremental tweaks really add up. Add Pods, elevators, HFT, Podiums, etc they all combine to make something really special. With components though it is better to make a significant commitment with each one. This is how you build for the long term.

🙄

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"  William Shakespeare.

@millercarbon said:

No baby steps, each one a major improvement, the kind of thing many audiophiles would say is out of balance or not matched. So? If you are building a system the smart way to do it is great strides....What you want do is avoid incremental improvement, at least in components. In tweaks, fine. Incremental tweaks really add up. Add Pods, elevators, HFT, Podiums, etc they all combine to make something really special. With components though it is better to make a significant commitment with each one. This is how you build for the long term.

I'm new at this -- just a couple years of putting together a system and reading a lot -- but this seems like the right advice. Tarun (YouTube) said the same thing in one of his early videos, saying that if one wants to ensure a change, that spending 2x to 3x is best (if possible). Best part about this advice is that it is scaleable. The person with $700 speakers (e.g.) can save a bit and spring for $2k speakers the next time. But what they should not do is just buy $900 speakers and expect a big improvement (unless they're changing designs or correcting a room or amp-synergy problem)

@mijale 

If you have a small room and only listen to “girl with guitar” music, 20 watts should be fine. But if you care a whit about dynamics and realism, 20 watts with 85 db speakers ain’t gonna get the job done. Doesn’t matter how much you wish it so.

@mijale 

Amp upgrade first given that you have never heard how good your Dynaudios can sound. Consider buying a nice integrated with an inboard phono stage to maximize your spend. Disclaimer: I have heard extensively or owned everything I will mention below but no longer own or have any affiliations.

Given your budget, consider a phono stage equipped primalina evo 300 for tubes. The Ravens are fine amps but you would also need a phono stage, you would be limited to the 6l6gc output tube and frankly it doesnt stand out from the crowd sonically in any meaningful way. I may get flamed but between Primaluna and Raven….no contest. Tube options galore, strong resale, excellent service.

Given that you have a schiit dac, you might consider their integrated with the inboard phono stage. For a real upgrade maybe consider the Schiit tube preamp, phono stage and a vidar. You could later add another vidar for monoblock performance. If you went the schiit route, you would have cash left to upgrade your speakers, dac or phono.

Another interesting possibility, the Sugden a21se signature with phono would kind of straddle the two different topologies. Given your equipment list, this would be a considerable upgrade for both your phono performance as well as provide reasonable current and power to enjoy your present speakers. The upgrade in musicality and tone would blow you away. It is also one of the few amps in this pricepoint (given your budget and current gear) that would never be the weakest link in the chain until you upgrade everything else considerably.

OR/AND

You might try, depending on where you live, shopping your local craigslist carefully. You might get lucky and find a reasonably priced pair of preowned Kilpsch heritage or even Altec Valencia/Flamenco/VOTT speakers if you have the room and permission to drop in a couple of large boxes. These speakers offer alot of bang for the buck, reasonably full range presentation and a live feeling due to their high sensitivity. These typically sell for alot less than other decent speakers because: their original packing materials were not designed for multiple use, they are difficult to ship and thus when someone is ready to move on from them, their market is limited for resale (beware, the same applies to you…lower entry price, lower exit price). Your dynaudios will sell easily. These kinds of speakers, like MC was explaining, will open up your amp options.

Regarding all the different camps of buy this or buy that, buy the company…buy the dealer….buy their track record of excellent service. New or used.

@ghasley you nailed it with your last paragraph.

Regarding all the different camps of buy this or buy that, buy the company…buy the dealer….buy their track record of excellent service. New or used.

@ghasley That is great advice. The last comment is perfect. 

@ghasley +3

@mijale Just move beyond PrimaLuna and Raven, get an Audio Hungary unit and be done with it.  https://audiohungary.com/  You'll find there are several very good dealers.

Save your money! You’ll get more bang for your buck elsewhere!

they’re playing on your patriotism by saying made in America, while charging top dollar and using inexpensive parts!

For example the AC line connector is a cheap press in part that wobbles in and out when the cord is moved….Most high end brands use a quality screw in Furutech IEC connector.

Then lightweight transformers have a difficult time driving a 86db 4 ohm speakers to their full potential!

I much prefer the Line Magnetic amp, it uses much higher quality parts for much less money!

@twoleftears +10,000 love my X200 and I have owned several Ravens. 

You have nice speakers. They do best with more power than the Raven delivers. I know the 14s are an easier drive than the 12s were but still they are voice with solid state. They are surly capable of responding to an amp upgrade. If you are looking to upgrade speakers thereafter more power will provide for wider choices. 

So always owning top of line Surround Amps for movies and not really using the system and I have Tinnitus ringing in the ears pretty bad and really could not hear the sounds coming from the surround speakers . So reading everything I could on audio and knowing nothing but what I can hear and knowing if I go to audio sales they have rooms that will never be your living room or sound room.... So seeing Raven Audio has 45 day trial I said what the hell .. So called and talked to Dave told him my issues and the speakers I had were 25 yr old Mirage M3’s and he said they will need to go in time to match Raven Amp.. So week later a Black Hawk shows up and OMG the sound coming from this are sweeter than any sound I have ever heard....So at 4k cost with tubes and they Raven at the time were redesigning their lower line Amps including the Osprey Amp so I had more like 60 days with Amp and at very end I decided to spend the money and try the Osprey.. And I am glad I did and the higher end tubes I have installed makes the music I hear now just filled with detail in music that I never knew existed in sound tracks .. And I mean this even with Tinnitus ..And we started talking about speakers and So Raven makes very good speakers So Raven has Corvus Reference and in designing they made a few sets of 5" speakers and decided to just go with 7" speakers.. So James of Raven offered a set of 5" Corvus speakers and they arrived they produced some very nice sounds but with my living room they lacked fulness.. So I pulled the plug and they had a used set of 7inch Corvus speakers and when they arrived and I only play my music at 75db loudness with my hearing issues and my main music I listen to is Peter White for this seems to ease my ringing for a while and luv Fleetwood Mac but all I can say is Music to my Ears ,,

 And it was 2019 when this all started and 3 years later I still get amazed at the details in music I hear from this Raven System ..

I will add this that my first year with Osprey & speakers and using all Raven Cables and Bifrost Gen 5 DAC that it took me close to year to get full sound from this system..I am using 6060 Yellows in first 2 rows and Raytheon Black Ladders 50's 3rd row and now using 4 Tong Sol 5881's ...I will also say if you move 2 of the 6060 tubes in any direction the sound changes drastically that it moves detail in music so much and this is were you take the time to roll tubes to tune it to your ears and if you move the other 2 tubes all I can say is be ready for some sweet sounds when you get it set up.. And this is were the magic of tubes shine . I also will note I am using SVS SB2000 Subs ..Patience with tube rolling plays big part and rewards to your music sound

UPDATE:

After the thread started, and perspectives shared, I decided to do the following:

I couldn't shake the part where I'd not yet heard the X14s truly.  So, I picked up two REL t-5x Subs and installed.  This alone made a difference with the Pioneer.  The weight on the X14s opened up and thus more tone.

A Yamaha AS-1100 barely used became available to me.  I've found the threads here and other places regarding the Yamaha integrated amps to have a bit under the radar take on their gear.  I'd heard an AS-2200 for a short bit before and always kept their gear in the back of my mind.

Hooked up the 1100 today and, in all, definite upgrade.  The Subs are barely a week old with about 30 hours on them.  The amp is seemingly new/quite newish.  The X14s sound quite clear compared to the Pioneer with no subs. 

Looking to ride this wave for a bit.  Working on upgrading cables and smaller aspects for now.  Still looking towards building a setup I want for the long-term, but will be a bit more couple years down the line.

That is, unless something magical this way comes to kick it all in motion.

As it stands, I appreciate the helpful perspectives that came my way in regards to my initial post. 

I believe you made a good choice. The Dynaudio stand mount speakers play best with solid state amplification that can drive 4 ohm loads. Should you find yourself with a speaker that is a true 8 ohm, and 90+dB sensitive then you can consider tube amplification.