Puerto, what you did not share was did your home made cable elevators make any sonic difference at all. I have tried at least three different companies and none of them made any difference, good or not so good, as far as I could tell in my system. Some swear they make a profound change, I'll bet your going to get a lot of posts on your thread saying so, I just never had that experience.
Based on a suggestion from the DakiOM site I experimented with suspending all of my cables - AC, interconnect and speaker - from the rack with cheap cotton string using small sections of foam water pipe insulation to keep cables from touching each other and the rack and I've been very pleased with the result. Big improvement over the ceramic isolators i used previously.
The result was a perceived reduction in background noise I hadn't noticed present before. Total cost about $3.00 USD
otis makes the best cable elevators
The result was a perceived reduction in background
noise I hadn't noticed present before.
If you hadn't noticed the noise before,how did you perceive a reduction in it?I'm not doubting you,just trying to understand the statement.
Teajay: To be perfectly honest, if the improvement was there it was not enough to make me sit up and take notice. I feel better having them off the floor but maybe I need to go the next step and get the power cords off the floor. . . . More Yogurt cups!!
I want to know what others have experienced and what medium of elevators they used. Yogurt cups may not be the most scientific approach????
Otis makes the best cable elevators
Uru975 (Threads | Answers)
I was told it's Thyssen Krupp but admittedly it was a European gentleman that made the comment.
I did not pen this but I believe it is about the best written on this topic.
There is a whole scientific process for developing a method to measure a cause, then a process for developing a device to accurately calculate the degree of the cause which includes calibrating the device to a certain standard to ensure one is receiving an accurate measurement. Then the whole process should approved by an independent peer review.
So, let us apply this principle to elevating cables off the floor. First we need to ask what type of devices are being used to measure the cause and effect. What is the method of testing, and has that method faced and been confirmed by a peer review. I have not seen or heard of any such research, has anyone else?
Next, let us apply some common logic. If there is an effect, the cause must be coming from the floor. One would not lift their cables into the air, exposing the cables to more air, if the cause was airborne.
What is in the flooring? Something in the varnish applied to wood floors? Perhaps static electricity form the carpet? Electric cables under the flooring? And what if you have a concrete floor? Could it be the steel reinforcing bar in the concrete? Is it the vibration from the speakers? If so, would they not still be effected by by airborne vibrations? They all claim an effect, but where is there scientific proof of the cause?
However, if one has ultra expensive cables named after snakes, cats, mountains, or Norse gods, designed to protect the flow of current from all known effects, and hand braided by child labor, well... those cables will never live up to their potential unless elevated.
Now examine the materials used for these lifters. I have seen wood, glass, ceramics, secret metal alloys and compound polymers, and even little disks with embedded tuning forks! I once saw a system with special inert screw eyes for the ceiling, with a special monofilament that dropped to a wooden clip for holding the cables off the floor. The simple device even had a patent pending, someone actually applied for a patent for a piece of string attached to a clothes pin! Of course, all were designed from extensive research, and each will claim in aggressive, enterprising language that all their competitors are bogus, only they make the proper product.
More nonsense: How do the manufacturers know exactly what height to elevate the cords, should it be 3, 4, 8, or 12 inches? At what height will the perceived effect be neutralized?
I am waiting for the day when someone sitting on a large supply of gas tanks decides to market oxygen to audiophiles. We should all know that only in an oxygen enriched room will all the distortion effects be neutralized.
I recall reading a product brochure many years ago by the audio equipment manufacturer Threshold. They claimed their circuits corrected for distortion at 100kHz, because distortion there can trickle down and magnify distortion at 30kHz. All well and good, but I doubt any human alive could hear the results
Puerto, have you noticed differences in sound using different flavor yogurt cups? I would think Strawberry/Banana would work best.
Seriously though, no room for elevators in my house....I make my cables take the stairs.....it keeps their bottom end and mid-band from getting flabby. Ok, I'm done.
Used paper towel rolls, cut into 1" sections.
You just gotta' find something to keep 'em high enough up to keep the Dust Bunnies away. I use the Cable Elevators. They are electric pole ceramic insulators with a rubber base and their logo on the side. I did not notice a sonic diff (YMMV), but I'm sure there is less wear and tear on the cables and it makes it easier to route and separate the cables.
CableClamps available at most hardware stores, home depot has some as well. They cost about a dollar each, they are adjustable clamp to the cable and lift it far enough to eliminate any static influence. If you have not seen them they open similar to a handcuff. If elevating the cable makes a difference or not, this is the cheapest way to do this that I have found.
to schipo: the electromagnetic field radiates well outside of the dialectric. That field interacts with ANYTHING including the insulation material lining the wire. (air being the least interfering) and raising the cable allows the majority of the cable radiated field to just be in air. (aside from the cables dielectric material) If the (say) thin speaker cable is touching a solid surface for it's full length, that magnetic field is interfered with only on one side. and maybe the signal gets smeared.
So the 'science of risers is clearly there. Whether it makes a difference in your, or my system depends on hearing, cables, insulation, flooring..
The riser height should be factored by the size of the radiated field. I would guess one inch is good enough for the average cable, maybe two for an unshielded cable like Kimber PBJ. And two for power cables. (this is an uneducated best guess.. you want better read and absorb a few electrical field books and decide for YOURSELF what YOU think is a good distance.) Remember the field is strongest closest to the wire, and weakens rapidly further from the wire.
Of course, you other argument about the proliferation of riser designs is different. THAT issue goes to the same problem that includes Tice Clocks, Teleportation Tweaks and a plethora of hokum selling itself as "science" to exploit idiots and extract profit. (and even plenty of geniuses can be idiots at times)
So the 'science of risers is clearly there
Elizabeth we have to stop saying the 'science is in' when it clearly is not...IN.Please summit the study if the science is in. There is much to much deceptions in the industry. The common method to sell such lies is to find someone(s) willing to state that they heard a difference. Such statements are then used for advertising.
I tried using them, but it made absolutely no difference at all.
Puerto, I use Cable Elevators in my rig and "Yes" they do make a difference for me. It helped to smooth out the sound and took juuust a bit of edge from the responce too, and for me I heard the difference right away. I'm also thinking of incorperating some Shunyadas into the mix just to get the best of bot worlds. If anyone has (or is doing this now) please let me know what you think.
The placebo effect works very well with this type of tweak..I want to hear the difference so it must be there?
Tpreaves. More accurately, I noticed a difference. I didn't notice any 'problem' before the tweak. After using the string tweak I noticed slightly higher SPL level at the same volume-dial setting. So, I interperted that as something masking the without-the-tweak sound that I labled background 'noise' for lack of a more objective description.
I picked Cable Isolator ESD's because they can be stacked permitting me to run multiple levels to organize and separate the cables behind and around the stands. I have herds of "Dust Bunnies" that roam around the area of the speaker cables and the elevated cables make it easier to round em up.
This is "one more thing I've wanted to do" that is now done, moving the system one step farther along the path.
The more "I wonder if that would make a difference" things I eliminate the more relaxed I find myself resulting in more enjoyable listening sessions.
I have some Mapleshade which are basically 3 cylindrical pieces of wood and a wood ring that looks somewhat reminiscent of a napkin ring that fit together in the manner of a tepee with the cable on top. Not outstandingly stable so I just artistically drape my Golden Reference over the equipment racks so they don't touch the floor. My tweak license was suspended for life years ago so don't bother turning me in.
When I wrote "the 'science is there" it referred to the knowledge that electromagnetic fields do in fact exist, and that they do in fact extend beyond the boundaries of the cable. That the electromagnetic fields can interact with the environment. These are all proven facts.
Within the crazy world of audio, none of those facts means anything to someone with an agenda. As for "proven"; in a context like this any and all so called facts need to be taken with a hard skepticism, first for common sense, and then for bullshit/spin.
If I post that the sky is usally blue because of water molecules in the air and you ask me to prove it.. Where are we?
Interesting comments all - First, different flavors of yogurt do not seem to make any difference. Elizabeth's comments are poignant and, I believe, statements of fact. How all that affects a system is the question.
Thank you to those that shared how they approached cable elevation. What I did not ask specifically is - are you elevating only the speaker cables? ICs? Power Cords? all or some? The only things left on my floor are the power cords to the monos and APC. Both monos and the APC are connected to their own individual dedicated 20 amp circuits. The pre/pro, DVD machines, TV and semi-silent silent fan are all plugged into the back of the APC.
I started this quest for information because I cannot get rid of an intermittent hum in the right channel. The system will play flawlessly for several days and then suddenly break into an unwanted hum. Among a dozen other things, elevated the cables was something I had not yet tried.
So far, still no luck but it does look a lot cleaner behind the system!
Your comments are interesting, humorous (in some cases) and helpful. I appreciate all of them.
If I post that the sky is usually blue because of water molecules in the air and you ask me to prove it.. Where are we?
That's just my point. That statement above can and is scientifically proven.But raising your speaker cables doesn't have an ear shot. Electromagnetic fields can interact with the environment and attack your cables. I thought all those high end cables going for thousands were protected from all those electromagnetic fields nasties.
If the electomagnetic field is radiating outward from the cable and it is interacting with objects not associated with the audio system -what difference could it make to the unaltered signal that is still carried in the cable unless it is reinjected back into the cable in some way?
How would the altered signal get back into the cable?
I use pint or bomber beer bottles with sand in the bottom for weight and long wooden skewers to form a "V" to hold the cable. I elevate all my cables. I haven't heard a difference between the British and German ales however. :-)
I use slats from old wooden wine boxes to elevate my cables, just cut a groove and stand them up.
I notice that old French wine crates work best for European classical and California wine crates work best for American pieces.
Strangely enough some tests with beer cartons also made significant improvements. Budweiser Lite was good with Kenny G, whereas Becks set the proper mood for Lou Reed and John Cale.
Not surprising, Lone Star beer cartons were clearly superior with Hank WIlliams and even Johnny Cash.
Don't ask me to explain it, it's just the way the test turned out. Before I was an audiophile there was Bob Hope and Johnny Cash. After all these tweaks there is no hope and no cash.
Hi Albert,THANKS I'm still laughing.
"How does the effect on the field radiated out affect the signal still in the cable?" It could affect the signal still in the cable the same way a ferrite affects the flow of high frequencies through a cable. A transformer works by placing a coil of wire next to another conductor, which then presents a load to the conductor carrying the signal. I have not played with cable elevators, and can't speak first hand about their effectivity, but the idea doesn't seem totally impossible.
In my experience, Yogurt cupss are good, but I have found that Edy's ice cream containers work even better, especially if they are painted in day-glo orange. The best cable elevators that I have used are some old bowling pins that I was lucky enough to purchase from the estate of a recently deceased audiophile that was also a 200 average bowler.
Thinking about the ideal cable elevator and being cheap lead me to this idea:
empty tape packing rolls (basically a two inch or so diameter two inch wide tube made of cardboard. Cotton string cut into equal lengths. use three or four lengths of string to form loops around the width of the tube that allow another cotton string circle to hold the cable centered in the tube. Make a bunch of these. (Hmmm...Sell them.. Make more.. make them out of Ebony and special Golden high Andes Mystical Llama hair/Endangered elephant eyelash whatever, charge $200./$400. each.. become wealthy off fools parting with thier money...}
The way to tie the stringlet around the tube is?? punch a hole and put the knot inside? Glue the string to the outside? Anyway, another good idea I will never fulfill.
But whare can I find a pile of empty packing tape rolls.. And the Llama hair?
Elizabeth, you can get the Llama hair from Napoloean Dynamite. He lives in Idaho. If you can't get a hold of him, check with his brother Kip (he's usually surfing the web for ladies, he may find you). The packing tape rolls you can probably score from Uncle Rico.
I use beer/soda cuzzi's. They made no difference in the sound. No money lost though. I personally think some of these tweaks go a little too far. Or maybe my system isn't at the quality level to realize such tweaks.
I'm considering using bundles of helium ballons tied to my cables. I was thinking of getting them after birthday parties and such, pretty cheap. Forgive me for the levity.
Damn fine idea Sprink.You should patent and market the balloons.You will get rich overnight.Charge a small fortune for them and throw out a few reviews on the audio sites and everybody and their brother will have to have them!!!Brilliant.Wish I would have thought it.
Unsound gave me a GREAT idea: small stuffed creatures as cable elevators.
Various small endangered/rare mammals, snakes, birds.. all carefully taxidermied.
I mean: just think of the guy with some $10,000 each speaker cables with stuffed Ermins as cable elevators!!
(They could carry the cable in thier little jaws!!)
Just for kicks, I bought 10 pieces of 2" thick acrylic, size 3x4 from www.CustomIsolation.net. I used them to lift ALL cables and cords 3" off the carpet thinking "okay? let's see what you got, and what the heck ppl 've been talking about?"
It sweeped me off the floor! I freezed up when I first heard the first music notes, they sounded much cleaner; VERY clean without harshness at all. I went back & forth to assure it was not my imagination.
My conclusion is yes, get them cables and cords off the floor using acrylic blocks do make sound CLEANER.It's a great tweek to reach for the high-end and the hi-fi sound. But fellas that like warmth, musicality, and romantic sounds must look-out, I suggest using softer material like wooden blocks or foams (may have small dielitric).
I use Shunyata Dark Field elevators, mostly to get off carpet to help keep static down as my system is subject to it in the basement. Also, I've heard it don't matter what you use to get these cables, (all cables), off the floor but I think it just makes sense for it to be made of something that don't resonate vibrations. I think that is half of why you want a cable off the floor so for me a cup of some sort will vibrate some and I just wonder if that would affect the sound. I have no testing or scientific reason for this thought but just me old common sense brain at work and maybe me justifying my cable elevators in my mind a bit to. Yes I think it improves the sound to get them off the floor but its been so long since I added them I can't remember what it did. It did get rid of my static problem.
Puerto...I only use Great Value Yogurt cups (Walmart) as they are just as effective as Yoplait and give them my highest recommendation ;)
I'm not sure they make any difference or not, but since I elevated them, I do notice I don't run over my cables with the vacuum anymore.
I use Hifi Pyon Mythology cable elevators secifically for my full Synergistic Research Active Tesla interconects, speaker wire, power cords and S.R QLS 9 power strip. They raise everything up about 6-6.5 inches away from any static or interferences. Awesome looking too & great build quality..
One very inexpensive and effective elevator that hasn't been mentioned is a clay flower pot. Clay is a fairly good non conductor and thus does not conduct static electricity. These pots are heavy enough to stay in place, come in a variety of sizes and shapes, and can be left plain or easily painted to match your taste.
I place the pots upside down for maximum stability and use about 1 pot for every 2 feet. Since my cables are fairly stiff, they stay in place on the pots and there is no need to fasten them down. If necessary, you could tie them with a string around the cable and through the hole in the bottom of the pot to short piece of pencil or dowel.
Is turning the flower pots over a metaphor suggesting that that the foundation for the argument of elevating cables is based on what might euphemistically be described as fertilizer?
Eureka! Brilliant discovery Unsound,
Good point about stiff cables Zargon. With Virtual Dynamics Revelation for instance no need for elevators at all, they just remain in free air if you bend them that way (Provided your gear has a few lbs to brag with and Binding Posts with a major B that is). Aware of Rick's firm set of beliefs, there may be a strong metaphor in that as well.
Schipo, placebo effect would work but.... when yo try the changes on an intermitant basis and LISTEN to the difference it produced, and could qualify it for oyur own subjectiveness as well as from an independant evaluator then FOR ME these were a good invetment for the change it made for my rig. Everything we try in the hobby is a matter of subjectiveness, what you hear I may not or what you like may not suit me also, but I respect your point of view for without it we wouldn't have changes that lead to better.
Is turning the flower pots over a metaphor suggesting that that the foundation for the argument of elevating cables is based on what might euphemistically be described as fertilizer?
Very amusing... be careful or you'll stir the pot of this thread. (:-)
Actually, I make no argument here pro or con on the influence of cable risers on the sound. As an engineer, I could make a theoretical case for why it might based on variation in the dialectrics surrounding the wire, but I have no experience or data to prove that it does. My primary motivation for risers was that they organize the cables and make them look better, and make it easier to clean under them. If the sound improved - that's great. As for power cables, I just leave them on the carpet but at right angles to the cables.
My advice to Puerto and others is that if you haven't fully addressed your room acoustics, don't worry about cable risers until you have.
Aw shucks, I was just being a jerk. While my system doesn't very easily lend itself to risers, I can easily imagine the benefits.
Absolutely nothing! I've got cones, spikes, blocks, and more under equipment. Sometimes there's a need for a line in the sand. I refuse to apply any cable elevators to my system. It is possible to get great sound without them.
I just built my own using balsa wood from any craft place. I made look like a t-pee. I saw some examples and just built them, they are in the process of drying and I will report back shortly. What cool is you can paint them any color you want or any finish for that matter. Maybe I will paint them different colors and see if some color effect sound better or worse than others.....