I understand it perfectly. I said it. Maybe its you who needs to work on it? Or just accept an opinion that differs from yours.
What do we hear when we change the direction of a wire?
Douglas Self wrote a devastating article about audio anomalies back in 1988. With all the necessary knowledge and measuring tools, he did not detect any supposedly audible changes in the electrical signal. Self and his colleagues were sure that they had proved the absence of anomalies in audio, but over the past 30 years, audio anomalies have not disappeared anywhere, at the same time the authority of science in the field of audio has increasingly become questioned. It's hard to believe, but science still cannot clearly answer the question of what electricity is and what sound is! (see article by A.J.Essien).
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
For your information: to make sure that no potentially audible changes in the electrical signal occur when we apply any "audio magic" to our gear, no super equipment is needed. The smallest step-change in amplitude that can be detected by ear is about 0.3dB for a pure tone. In more realistic situations it is 0.5 to 1.0dB'". This is about a 10% change. (Harris J.D.). At medium volume, the voltage amplitude at the output of the amplifier is approximately 10 volts, which means that the smallest audible difference in sound will be noticeable when the output voltage changes to 1 volt. Such an error is impossible not to notice even using a conventional voltmeter, but Self and his colleagues performed much more accurate measurements, including ones made directly on the music signal using Baxandall subtraction technique - they found no error even at this highest level.
As a result, we are faced with an apparently unsolvable problem: those of us who do not hear the sound of wires, relying on the authority of scientists, claim that audio anomalies are BS. However, people who confidently perceive this component of sound are forced to make another, the only possible conclusion in this situation: the electrical and acoustic signals contain some additional signal(s) that are still unknown to science, and which we perceive with a certain sixth sense.
If there are no electrical changes in the signal, then there are no acoustic changes, respectively, hearing does not participate in the perception of anomalies. What other options can there be?
Regards.
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Essien also claims Ohm is flawed and Helmholz is just as wrong. Better toss those Resonators.Have you read anything? Essien only demonstrate in his own way what is a well known fact in psychoacoustic... Pitch is not reducible to frequency... Read wiki if you are not able to read a book.... «Pitch may be quantified as a frequency, but pitch is not a purely objective physical property; it is a subjective psychoacoustical attribute of sound.» Wiki |
If someone sold you directional wire, especially expensive directional wire and forgot to tell you which way is the right way, I’d find another more competent vendor.a directional cable DONT NEED to be expansive... Dont confuse a subject matter with marketing... Or maybe it just really does not matter? There is always something else one can find to obsess about.There are many neighbours mocking year genetic experiments obsession with peas when Gregor Mendel was living... Dont be a complaining neighbour even if Anton is not Gregor.... We must try to contribute to a thread.... Positively.... |
I am keeping tabs on threads these days....this one goes under "totally useless". That’s being kind. Gaslighting people is even worse than useless.Coming from Albert Einstein this remark will be a sign, but how could you decide for all of us,what is useless, useful, or simply interesting or anything between the two extremes? The tentation to insult people is too much attractive to the alternative, like reading an article or a book? i suggest to you to read Essien article suggested by Anton then your time will be valued coming in this thread you dare to despise in the name of all....I just buy it 50 bucks.... Then FOR MY own account of usefullness among all threads it is a very useful one.... Reading a book is more useful than readin insulting posts... Sorry.... |
My only thought for this topic is so what? If someone sold you directional wire, especially expensive directional wire and forgot to tell you which way is the right way, I’d find another more competent vendor. Or maybe it just really does not matter? There is always something else one can find to obsess over. Or if playing with wires is simply what floats ones boat, more power to you. |
If you have the same wire on both sides, there is no need for balance control, assuming the wires are manufactured with any sort of consistency. I was mistaken though, they blamed it on the wire being stranded. Obviously it is not a stranded wire issue, but something simple that was missed. Back to the twilight zone. |
@dletch Such an experiment is conducted to subjectively evaluate the "loudness" of the wire. First, the sound stage shift is detected, then the balance is restored using the volume control and the difference is measured. On a transparent system, the difference in "loudness" between some type of wires in such an experiment can reach several DB. Sure it is twilight zone for most people. |
@oldhvymec No feedback, YES! Until you get a tube amp with no feedback, you just don't know what tube sound is. It was Hiroyasu Kondo who first noticed the degradation of sound when using feedback. A Japanese audiophile who was mocked for his "crazy" ideas for years until he became famous for sound of his silver cables and vintage triode amps. |
anton_stepichev OP42 posts04-20-2021 3:44am@djones You mean like a blind listening test? If you can't prove it with a blind listening test, then it is not there. This hypothesis also has drawbacks. The wire is heard equally well both as an acoustic cable and as an IC, especially the difference is clearly noticeable in tube amps. A tube is controlled by grid voltage, there is no current in the circuit of tube grid, which means there is no field. What's an acoustic cable? Do you mean speaker cable? I don't think you understand fields. Applied voltage generates a field independent of current. That will be an electrostatic field. Also, this hypothesis does not explain the audibility of power cables that emit nothing but 60 hertz harmonics. The level of the voltage changes at 60Hz. The frequency of the current may have a fundamental at 60Hz, but there will be harmonics up to many KHz and above. |
anton_stepichev OP what have you read of Essien to this day? Which articles? I think that perhaps in Essien experiences with string internal variable force of tension is the beginning of an answer.... If pitch is not reducible to frequency because of this mechanical invariant linked to tension perhaps a string like a cable react differently affecting the sound result when the orientation of his constituants fiber are twisted in one direction or the other.... I will begin the book tomorrow if i am lucky....I have 9 articles of Essien +a chapter of the book..... |
@perkri As far as I can get it, Ted_denney doesn't listen to the whole spool. He cuts a piece of wire from it, determines its direction, and then marks the entire spool. Then he can use the wire from the spool in his cables according to his idea of how the strands should be directed in cables. It is just more convenient way to work. As for the spool, the way a wire behaves when you turn it into a spiral is very complicated, it's not just a combination of LCR in different proportions. For example, it matters which way the spiral is twisted relative to the direction of the wire (clockwise or wise versa). There are lots of interesting things about audio inductors and transformers, but we're talking about wire here. |
I’m 59 and took electronics in 1979-1980 while working as an electrical apprentice . The majority of my time has been in the industrial power systems and process/ machine controls. Conductors have free electrons, gold has more than silver, which has more than copper, which has more than aluminum. Current flow , measured in amperes is as simple as free electrons moving through a conductor when voltage is applied to load. AC alternating current, changes direction every 180 degrees. DC direct current, flows in one direction. I’m not sure I understand everything in this string of post but I do understand electricity and in no way am I disputing what anyone hears with their own ears . |
Hi ted_denney and tablejockey. Were the tests in which differences were perceived run on a blind ABX basis? Were they repeated with multiple subjects? Were there independent witnesses present? If not, the experiences have zero relevance or value. Have you ever been listening to your rig and think 'Damn. This sounds really good, much better than yesterday?' Course you have, we all have. Most of us just say 'Zeek, I must be in a good mood'. Or 'shouldn't have had that extra glass of wine'. And just enjoy the temporary experience. But some say 'My hearing and my recollection of previous auditory experiences is so 100% perfect that the only cause of the change must be that something has changed in the rig. But nothing has changed. So these guys invent stuff to explain their subjective perception. Oh, that speaker cable is hanging a half-inch lower. Perhaps someone came in at night and turned a fuse around. The temperature is a degree warmer: must listen at 66.5 degrees. Must be because I vacuumed the carpet this morning. etc etc. |
@millercarbon This hypothesis also has drawbacks. The wire is heard equally well both as an acoustic cable and as an IC, especially the difference is clearly noticeable in tube amps. A tube is controlled by grid voltage, there is no current in the circuit of tube grid, which means there is no field. Also, this hypothesis does not explain the audibility of power cables that emit nothing but 60 hertz harmonics. I believe, we may feel the electromagnetic field of the conductors in some situations, but there must be something else besides that. Otherwise, the puzzle doesn't add up. |
@djones The problem is that we both can't prove our point using standard tests. They don't take too much into account, I wrote about it in my last answer to you. Besides, my question was about something else. If, after all, we agree that there are people who distinguish the sound of one wire from another, what exactly can they hear or feel? ps - this is from Essien's article: "Many observers wonder at the listeners' ability to extract recognizable temporal and intonational patterns from the seemingly chaotic acoustic signal... “Richly structured perception on the one hand vs various imperfections in production including a wide range of deviations from target norms as well as large scale intra and inter individual variation on the other.” For Wode, it is a paradox; for Bloothooft (1995) it is a mystery" |
@millercarbon I think this hypothesis has problems. 1 - the characteristic sound of the wire is perceived almost independently of the sound volume of the system, even at the minimum volume, when the speaker cone practically does not move. This point in particular excludes the influence of vibrations, as the only cause that affects perception, which occurs in parallel with hearing. Apparently, there is something else besides the vibrations. 2 - the characteristic sound of the wire is perceived regardless of the level of noise and interference of the signal source, for example, on old shellac records, the level of interference often becomes equal to the level of the useful signal already at 4-5 kHz, everything above this threshold is one continuous interference. The question arises, where in this case can micro-information hide? |
I've learned how to get my wires directional. I hook them up to a 20Kv neon transformer and teach them to Obey. ...one of these daze I've Got to stop huffing contact cleaner....move on to something more 'socially acceptable'.....mabbe bath salts....salvia divinorum .... Anything that will either make me accept that some sensitive souls can hear the alignment of molecules in wires... ....or to go hunting Nessie in Scotland armed with an ice pick..... Better, and easier...buy one (or 3! whatta deal!) of this: https://www.ototodesign.com/products/nessie-standing-ladle "You are what you expect to be....but really, not." {old saying} I'm old....and said it. So there. ;) |
@mahgister I must thank you anton_stepichev very much for Essien article... Hi, Mahgister! The link to Essien was given by a person in another thread, I can't find who and where. We must both say thanks to him. I already read many articles from him in the last 2 days and i wait for his book coming in thursday I wonder how much deeper he reveals the topic in the book, let me know if there is something interesting on the topic of audio please. It also join to the deep thinking of Ernest Ansermet in musical meaning experience... Ansermet is a great conductor, though not my favorite. I didn't know he had books about music, either. Our life passes in a rush, where to find time for everything, it is not clear.. |
I have to say all this is a great discussion. My head is vibrating :). @millercarbon you are often snarky and I’ve come to in a perverse way enjoy it much of the time. I have to say your threads are particularly excellent in this discussion. They are really resonating with me, no sarcasm, totally serious. Thanks all for your contributions as well - for the most part. Certainly the usual turds in the punch bowl, but less than normal :). The Audiogon forum, in general, has greatly improved since the biggest turd of them all, whose name will never be repeated again, - he who thought a concrete wall would make the ultimate speakers and that we are all a bunch of idiots for loving this hobby - was finally banished off the island! |
That is because they are listening to the wire and not to Pink Floyd and equate turning a screw to assemble an actuator to going through a full space qual design and implementation and having something up in space .... and no one ever mentioned cable direction. But that is nothing. I just read someone claimed the location of an instrument shifted 1/3 of the soundstage due to, wait for it .... wait for it .... copper wire. We have entered the twilight zone. |
Some don’t get it at all. Some sommeliers are sooooo good, and have studied so much that they can identify the sub region where a wine came from and when it was produced.What is surprizing is not what any humans can or could develop in the mastery of their own powers, sensation/perception, intuition, imagination, thinking concentration etc.... What is surprizing is the way some trust only their religious belief.... Guess which is the name of this new religion? It is not protestantism, Islam or orthodoxy or buddhism, no, this religion is the new one , the idolatry of technology and the confusion of the map with reality and now worst, the replacing of reality by animated maps....Walking idols like those of Boston dynamics.... It make me sad that some will name "luddite" someone who vouch for science over running technology, and not the opposite....Science is NOT only physics or biology by the way, it is way more complex and vast that this TV simplification.... In the long history of science we are at the borderline where the worker want to be the master.....Technology cannot by itself be the savior....It is a part of the problem when profit run the game ... Any civilized society must invest most of his eggs in the basket of education.... Where else? But we are not civilized, we never have been, we are powerful savage manipulated by hubris.... After Shakespeare, Goethe in his Faust and in his general works, take a deep look in the modern hubris at a level never renewed perhaps since.... But who understand Goethe? It is an obsolete poet for most....Few people know that Goethe was also a great scientist... Like Archimedes who waited more than one millenia to be understood by Newton and Leibnitz... This new religion i speak about is incompatible with Goethe thinking..... |
The only people I know of who run wires in reverse do so in the basements of churches. Apparently, they hear some pretty dark stuff... I find the idea of listening to an entire spool of wire a very interesting idea. Always appreciated/enjoyed calculus. The whole idea of what happens when you look at something at its infinite limit. Is it zero, one or infinity. At some point, at some length, if that wire was polled out all in the same direction during manufacturing process, it becomes a little easier to grasp how directionality becomes something that would be readily identifiable. Would be very interested in doing that experiment. Also curious how that spool effects the SQ - being that a spool is an inductor? Look what happens moving speakers a few inches in any direction in your room. Run a 50hz tone through them, walk around and note where the signal drops out, becomes a droning mess or is crystal clear. Move the speakers a few inches, try it again. It makes a difference. I listen to the radio - a lot. Some days, the signal is so clear I absolutely love listening to the SQ coming out of my tuner. Other days, there is so much static and noise its just an exercise in frustration. And then, if the muting is on, walking around the room will make the signal appear and disappear. Everything has an impact on how something sounds. And not everything that has an impact on SQ can be measured. Roller blocks under gear for example. What is the measurement there? Why do certain tubes sound the way they do? Same tube type, different manufacturer, same measurements, different SQ. It ain’t magic, although it might as well be given how some NEED the measurements on anything in order for it to be real. Could be, some systems, and the rooms they are in are just not conducive to being able to hear any differences this small - they get lost in the noise of the space. Or, the listener is unable to discern any difference, either because of physical limitations, lack of knowing what to listen for or some other reason. Look at people trying to taste the difference between wines. Some don’t get it at all. Some sommeliers are sooooo good, and have studied so much that they can identify the sub region where a wine came from and when it was produced. |
Thank God GAS passes one direction, you'd be smellin' your own FARTS.. Cable is the same way.. But that gas may have come out of your ears, for all I know. Maybe you do have a gas problem.. I know your full of, well let's just call it misinformation.. BUT it's actually $hit.. You two stick around, for 10 more minutes and READ. Instead of talk.. Please don't show you're complete dummies.. Again Semi-Regard.. I'll give you a 6 out of 10 on the regard scale.. |
I was picking up modified CD player at a Chicago shop. The designer took a Phillips CD player and modified the power supply and capacitors and received favorable reviews. After a year he offered an upgraded model and would upgrade the original model for cost. My wife and I were waiting at the owners home while he was in traffic. His wife let us wait in the listening room and I used the remote for the player. I was describing how much better the upgrades made in the sq and looking forward to my unit. Unknown that at the bottoms shelf was had the original player and was actually the source to the preamp. Pretty embarrassing |
https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf This fellow retired from Jensen Transformer maybe he will get some respect but I doubt it. |
BTW it’s expensive to get into space because of the worthless people on staff.. the 20/80 rule still applies in space. 20% of the people do 80% of the work always at the expense to tax payers.. Designers butting heads instead of listening to a simple.. "That won’t work". EGGO EGO.. Just like saying cabling has no direction.. Hell it don’t. Dumber than a box or rocks... Fella.. I can see you gonna be put on the Eeyore list... Oh Well, I can’t learn from an old wore out master mechanic, I’m too smart.. You related to Audio2Design? He was pretty thick AT FIRST... Semi-Regard.. that’s a 2 out of 10 on the regard scale.. It’s going down for sure.. Pay attention.. I’ll put you in the corner, with that silly pointed hat, you're so fond of.. |
I spoke with the tech at Audience LLC about the directionality of their speaker wires. I was getting my Conductor SE speaker wire chopped up and re-terminated. He said that their cables do settle in 1 direction of signal flow. If you reverse the setup of the cable the cable will take a few days to settle into the optimum internal state for that direction. I am not sure how they are measuring this nor do I really care. I was curious as to why Audience has arrows on their cables. So based on the comments of the tech I can understand why they believe the setup path of their wire matters. I have flipped this Conductor SE speaker wire around a few times due to necessity. One end is spades and the other banana. I was not able to hear any difference. |
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The RAMBLE was calling a spade a spade. WE THAT WAS ME. Used and have used and understood wire direction for 35 years... You have not... That comment is pretty simple.. Your behind times, WAY BEHIND, like suckin butt behind... If you'd pay attention I might teach you something.. BUT I know.. you learned or was taught.. BY Smart Guys.. LOL I been fixing YOUR messes for years.. AND yes I worked Aviation also.. There are mechanics in space AND on airplanes.. Once again, I was a rear door man on a 123 provider.. KEEP talkin.. you're just about over your head now. I made a few repairs at 27,000 feet.. AND being shot at.. Thank you very much. No mechanics WHERE.. Marine too.. YUP... There is no LESS THAN in maintenance. It's ALL important.. Remember.. you eat because of mechanic, just like the water you drink. Not the other way around.. The world goes around because of not in spite of MECHANIC.. EVERY WAR that was ever won or lost..... You got it.. MECHANICS. Silly Shi$ BTW what do you think a Doctor is? Really that's right a DG Mechanic of people.. Arrogant at best, lack of thought BEFORE spouting off, well that is just, being a __________ fill in the blank.. BUT smart doesn't come to mind.. Puff Puff pass.. NO NOT YOU.. BUT YOUR Welcome in any case.. |
There is a difference between low tech, and the level of test, retest, verification, etc. that goes into anything going into space. The crawler is critical to success, but not at the same level as something that literally cannot be fixed if it breaks. We don't send people the moon because the cost is high, and there is little value at this point to doing it. We can send a rover that can last weeks, months, years. To put a human there that long is stupid expensive. Not sure what the rest of your ramble is about. Some of us actually have worked on stuff that went into space. We know the hoops. Wire direction was not one of them. |
The crawler does not need high reliability, and I have actually been involved in the development of products that went into space. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.. Well then you should know that the crawler is most critical part of the whole darn thing. And without precision that Shuttle or Saturn 6 wouldn’t make it to the launch site.. It’s just as hard to go slow, without tearing up stuff as going fast.. In layman’s terms.. Apparently you think things like cranes, drilling equipment, and in general heavy equipment are low tech stuff.. MAN on MAN, you get to enjoy a nice meal and a beautiful house ONLY because of it.. Plane and simple.. You EAT because of me... Not in spite of me.. Silly person.. I’m reflecting what I’ve learned from actual experience not because I was on the design TEAM, No No No.. I was on the other end of the REPAIR team...AFTER people wouldn’t listen.... Remember the O-RING.. BOOM.... Seems that same team is still somewhat employed.. When was the last time we were on the moon.. Remind me again. oh mighty designer.. Most of the teams were compiled of people with an AA, think about that.. Now that won't get you an application at Wal Mart.. BUT 60 years ago it got you a job at NASA.. LOL Smarter? OK if you say so.. |