What amp is best with Wilson Sasha DAW speakers

For the OP - I strongly recommend you check out VTL amps.  They pair very well with Wilson. The MB-185 MK3 will deliver plenty of power and will sound awesome.  A tinge warm, very Musical.  Just wonderful amps.  I have the original MB-185s.  

VTL is regularly shown with VTL gear at shows, I have listened to the MB-185s driving Wilson in a dealer showroom.  I don’t like the VTL preamp but their amps are amazing.  

I have also heard Ayre’s MKR gear driving Alexx’s And it was one of the best sounding systems I have ever heard.  

I think the VTLs will deliver a sound that is closer to your taste based on what you described above.  

I sell amps that I think would do a lovely job but haven’t heard parolees with Wilson’s so I am just guessing.

Regarding the Parasound argument, I get that people feel like they have found a hidden gem or they can’t hear a difference above a certain point.  In another forum, there is a guy who is convinced anyone buying something better than a Denon receiver is a fool because he can’t hear the difference between a Denon receive and a Marantz Reference receiver driving a pair of Polk rti’s.

As someone who doesn’t particularly like Parasound’s house sound, this seems like a bizarre argument for anyone to make.  The A21 is competitive at it’s price point but it will be seriously outclassed by many products.  I prefer the Musical Fidelity M6 PWR and would take the M8 Mono Blocks over the JC1s.  It isn’t that they are inherently better.  I just like MFs sound profile better.  

Hi verdant, I am in agreement with you regarding the VTL's, great amps.  Admittedly it is based on an amp I owned years ago, but I thought the Musical Fidelity I used was too tipped up in the treble region.  Again, old news, never wanted another.  Parasound gets a bad rap by dealers wanting to sell mega priced gear.

jetter, there you go.  My preference is a slightly forward sound profile which is what MF delivers.  I don’t see Parasound getting a bad rap.  

Dealers I know that carry it have been complimentary if that is the price point you are at.  The JC3+ is beloved.  

@rauliruegas 

I get that you love your Parasound JC1's, but to say they compete with any Amp at any Price is terrible advice to give on a Forum. While they are quite good for the money, they don't come close to Ypsilon, Thrax, Robert Koda, that I have heard. Of your list, I much prefer Gryphon Antillion and a lot of Audio Research, to name a few, to JC1's.

What I can't understand is people plastering all over Forums that what they own is "The Best". Why? Ego?, Delusions? 

I think your on the money steakster.

Unless I've missed it I havn't seen an approx. Budget from the OP. Also while the OP has indicated a Signature Sound, which I find really good, they havn't indicated what styles of Music they will listen to. This should really help with recommendations. 

So if you are choosing between VTL 7.5 s3, ARC ref 10, or Spectral 30SV as the preamp with one would you shoes for the Wilson DAWs.  Right now I have a Krell FPB 300c which will be replaced too but preamp first. I have cable systems from Cardas, Transparent and MIT. 

So if you are choosing between VTL 7.5 s3, ARC ref 10, or Spectral 30SV as the preamp which one would you choose for the Wilson DAWs.  Right now I have a Krell FPB 300c which will be replaced too but preamp first. I have cable systems from Cardas, Transparent and MIT. Sorry about the autocorrect in previous post. 

With all respect, always is useless to discuss with a bia$ed $seller.

"""  Maybe for some one the Boulder or dartzeel or other amps fulfill better his own priorities but the JC1 never puts your system on shame. """

R.

Dear @verdantaudio: """  As someone who doesn’t particularly like Parasound’s house sound, .................................................. and would take the M8 Mono Blocks over the JC1s.  It isn’t that they are inherently better.  I just like MFs sound profile better.  ""

What an answer ! Our opinions are only that: opinions.

R.

Personal taste but IMO the ARC Ref 10 is the best of the three. 

I would consider a CJ GAT, Ayre KX-R Twenty or Soulution 725 over the VTL or the Spectral.  I think the Arc Ref 10 is best of all of these though.  

Dear @initforthemusic  : I'm not a JC1 owner.

Btw, @jetter   : """   Parasound gets a bad rap by dealers wanting to sell mega priced gear. ""

Yes, but for we music lovers/audiophiles true quality level performance is more important than money. Big money not always goes along high quality in the same way that " decent " money $$ not always says its true quality.

R.

Dear @carey1110 : Preamp is always important but when we are talking of the speakers in any system amplifier is a little more important because the speakers always made a intrisical couple/mate with the amplifier not with the preamp. Speaker/amp are a " married " couple and depends of its good ( or not ) overall relationship in between to its quality level performance.

Maybe you need to start with the amp not the preamp.

R.

@rauliruegas  I think the MFs vs. the JC1 are technically relatively comparable units.  They are similarly priced and are directly competitive in many ways including power, overseas building, etc...  I would never buy the JC1s over the MF M8 500s if I was in that market based on speakers I have owned previously, not because I think the JC1s are technically inferior, but because I prefer a different sound.   

That being said, I am not about to say that I think the MF M8s are in the same league as Ayre MXR Twenty's, anything from D'Agostino or a variety of other companies for SS amps.  They aren't going to sound dreadful and won't be an embarrassment but I am going to go out on a limb and guess that someone who has spent $38K on a pair of speakers is probably not looking for an amp that won't embarrass itself, but rather will deliver the best sound possible.  

I would also argue that given the OPs stated preferences, Parasound, MF, Ayre, D'Agostino and a variety of other SS amps and preamps would be a poor match and that they are likely to prefer tube gear (VTL, ARC, etc) or warmer SS gear like (Pass, Naim, etc...).  Just opinion and worth and probably worth what you paid for it.

I’m also considering the Ayre and the CJ Gat. With vocals I assume the CJ would be better. I’m starting to steer away from the Spectral because it seems very difficult to get right and not many people are recommending it.   I’ve heard from many that I should consider tubes in the preamp at least. I just want it to be very natural organic and neutral.  I may be able to pick up a Pass amp 250.8 to demo in a couple weeks. That might be interesting. 

Dear @carey1110 : Neutral?, well almost all of us look for a neutral audio items but this is extremely elusive characteristic for tube electronics that are far away from there.

Btw, why you are willing to buy the preamp first than the amp? which is what move you in that road and not the other way around?

I ask because I want to learn something about that maybe I’m missing or it’s that I’m just wrong and if it’s that way I would like to know it.

Thank’s in advance.

R.

Btw, the Pass X250.8 is an entry level Pass whole amplifier catalog but good that you will have the opportunity to listen a " touch " of Pass electronics.

The reason for the sudden interest in a preamp  is that my Spectral DMC 20 s2 preamp’s phono stage just stopped working so I had to send it in for repair. So right now I’m without anything. I know I really need to focus on the amp matching the speakers first but I have a Krell 300c which I’m not fond of but it does work. It’s just raggedy in the highs, a little bright. However that was with the spectral preamp too so that may something to do with it. I know tubes aren’t neutral but they have a natural organic sound that can fool me pretty good since I’m not at the recording session. I know you understand what I’m trying to say. BTW I had the Model # wrong on the Pass it is the 260.8. 

@carey1110

Regarding the GAT, you’ll want to give careful consideration to the fact that like most CJ preamps and line stages it has very high gain, 25 db in this case. If you use digital sources, which of course usually provide considerably higher output voltages than phono stage/cartridge combinations, depending on the gain of the amp you end up choosing, and on your listening distance and other variables, the result might be having to use its volume control at undesirably low settings. And while the not particularly high 91 db efficiency of your speakers suggests that might not be an issue, it is a factor that should be considered IMO.

Also, the fact that the GAT provides only unbalanced outputs might result in it not being fully optimal for use with whatever amp you end up choosing. And for that matter there are a few fully balanced amps, notably the Audio Research Ref series of amps, which only provide XLR inputs and in addition cannot be properly driven by single-ended signals even if an RCA-to-XLR adapter is used. In those cases something like a Jensen transformer would have to be used to convert a preamp’s single-ended outputs to a true balanced pair of signals. I mention that, in connection with ARC specifically, because in your initial post you indicated that tube amps are a possibility.

Good luck, in any event. Regards,
-- Al

I have owned the ARC Ref 40 and the VTL 7.5. I purchased the VTL to replace the Ref 40 when I upgraded my speakers as the change was clearly bringing out the “truer then true” characteristic of the ARC amp. By this I mean it’s tendency to make everything sound bigger than life, more dynamic and more impactful but all rather similar. This could be because I match with VTL amps so the combo works well. The 7.5 is more honest but maybe less immediately attractive but I feel it is more true to the source. This comparison by Roy Gregory rings true to me

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/trio_preamps.htm

Clearly these are all good amps and personal preferences and system matching will be what matters, not another persons opinion of which is “best”

Thank you for you input on the three preamps. Everyone’s input is very important to me. Even tho I’m aware I cant make a choice just solely based on what others say it does help to hear everyone’s personal preference. Which amps and preamps you all prefer and your reasons why helps me to choose a direction to pursue. The Wilson Sasha DAW is a very transparent speaker. I’ve heard it sound lush full and warm and also lean bright and cold depending on what electronics are used. Therefore any experience with different electronics on this speaker will help me. All you comments and advice are greatly appreciated. 

@rauliruegas 

Any particular reason you don't own JC1's? As you seem dead keen on them. What do you own?

Dear @initforthemusic  : Because I don't need it, you can look my system in Agon virtual system here:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3080

R.

Carey we are just a little suprised you aren’t at least considering some of the uber intergrated amplifiers which these days sound as good or better than many sets of separates.

The Gryphon Diablo 300, the new Vitus piece and the T+A 3100HV are all spectacular units, the T+A’s phono card was compared to 7-10k phono stages by the Absolute Sound, and it is internal is really inexpensive.

We have heard the new Backet labs preamps at the shows, and the sound is very impressive, many people are considering their preamps to match many of the really expensive tube preamps out there for a lot less.

The other tube preamp that is gaining a lot of great review is the Zesto.

We sell neither of these just an observation.

We would definatly say that the VTL or ARC on the old Krell is not going to be really good until you move into a new amplifier, we know the old Krell sound, had both the KSA 250 and the FPB 450MCX amplifiers in the past.

Again in the past while working at SBS the VTL 7.5 did sound great with the Krell amplifiers of the day.

Krells new XD series amplfiers are actually really rather extraordinary on the Wilson’s we heard the Chorus XD 300 at CAP last year on the Alexx’s in VPI’s room and the sound betweent the Krell and the Wilsons was extraordinary, and the prices are super reasonable for an amplifier of this quality.  You should ask Matt Weisfled of VPI what the sound was like at CAP last year, the sound of the Alexxs on a set of the new Krell 300XD was one of the best sounds of the entire show, and beat out many really expensive electronics setups.


One of the reaons we recommend the T+A 3100HV to you so highly is that it sounds very tube like and drives Wilson’s extremely well, we have a client in CA who was on a long seach to find great electronics to drive a set of Alexias and head the 3100HV making magic on that speaker.

Good luck on your search.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Krell, T+A dealers

I am going audition the Gryphon Diablo 300 in a week or so. 

Great piece.

as we mentioned we have a client with the Alexias and the T A 3100Hv and he loves the sound.

So yes you can great results with one of these mosters.

tubes: ARC gear is great. and you'll have to deal w tubes (ugh)

solid state: Luxman C/M900 series are a must audition. worked magic w/ Sasha 2s and never ever fatiguing. end game SS gear. 

Do you think tubes would be better than solid state since this is such a revealing speaker?

not at all. i think you should audition both, and decide if the differences which may (or may not) favor tubes are such that its worth the additional hassle that WILL come with dealing with tubes (particularly tube amps; preamps are low maintenance).

no one ever truly owns a tube amp; they just rent them.

i did that calculus and went to Luxman and have zero regrets, having used it with Sasha 2s and now Magico S7s.

but a good move: go same brand for both pre and amp; the amp / speaker interface is most important, but a manufacturer will always say their gear is synergistic. and they're usually right. 

Lol!! I love the part about never owning the tube amp. I guess you’re never done paying for it,  with the future need for tube replacement. Thanks fo your input and with try to locate a Luxman dealer near me. 

You'll not regret checking into Luxman.  It has it all.  

Regarding tubes being better for a transparent speaker, I think lots of contemporary high end tube gear has been made to approach solid state in terms of transparency...especially ARC. 

One the preamp, VTL 7.5 III, Ref 10, and GAT 2 would without doubt all be excellent, but for me the GAT 2 drops out due to being single ended only, and the Ref 10 get canned based on its impedance requirements which mean you can't drive a subwoofer.  

VTL emerges as the top choice among those IMO.

@carey1110

I once had a pair of big Wilson Alexx driven by 2 pairs of D’Agostino Momentum M400 monoblock amps with the ARC (Audio Research) Ref 10 linestage preamp and achieved excellent results. At the time I was using all Transparent Opus cablings, Kronos Pro turntable w/ 12" Black Beauty tonearm, Air Tight PC-1 Supreme mc cartridge & D’Agostino Momentum phonostage pre served as analog front end source components and the DCS Vivaldi full four stacks (Vivaldi masterclock, Vivaldi upsampler, Vivaldi DAC, Vivaldi CD/SACD transport) served as digital front end source components.

I highly recommend the ARC Ref 10 linestage preamp paired with either the D’Agostino Momentum M400 monoblock amps or the ARC Ref monoblock amps for your Wilson Sasha DAW speakers. For digital front end source component(s) I highly recommend the latest EMM Labs DAC or its CD player. ARC & D’Agostino gears pair really well with Wilson Audio speakers combined with Transparent cablings. Ayre, Vitus Audio, VTL, VAC, Luxman, higher end Naim 500 series separate gears will also pair well with your Wilson Sasha DAW.

Remember, your front end source components, whether digital or/and analog front end components, are the most important components in hifi chain.

The Naim 500 series separate gears will also pair well with your Sasha DAW. The Naim 500 series separate gears comprise of the following :
* Naim ND 555 digital streamer/DAC with its external separate Naim 555 PS DR power supply unit (psu).
* Naim NAC 552 linestage preamp with its external separate 555 PS DR psu.
* Naim NAP 500 DR power amp with its separate external 555 PS DR psu.
The NAP 500 DR power amp is a true dual monoural design configurations with left & right channels are encased in separate chambers and are completely isolated and independent from each other with its own independent power supply and voltage regulations for each channel.
These Naim 500 series separates will sound highly musical on your Sasha DAW speakers.

For these Naim separate components you must use DIN connections to connect between components as it will make a big difference sonically, will sound better than using their RCA single-ended connectors. DIN is Naim’s proprietary connectors and is their XLR balanced version.

I am a big fan of Naim Audio. I’m also a fan of D’Agostino Momentum & Relentless series, ARC Reference line, Linn, T&A, Vitus Audio, Tidal, CH Precision, Accuphase, Luxman, EMM Labs, MSB, Soulution, MBL, Audionet, DarTZeel, Burmeister, Chord Electronics, Lamm, VTL, VAC, BAT, Cary Audio, Ypsilon, Ayon, Pass, Levinson, Boulder & PS Audio BHK series among others.

The OP said he cares most about highs and mids. Nothing beats electrostatics when it comes to mids and the air that huge panels can bring to the table. I’ve heard Sasha DAW and Alexia 2 at axpona and In 2 different homes and although they were great in their own right, electrostatics such as ClX art or even neoliths just demolished both Wilsons. You want accurate mids and highs ? Get the CLX. You want big huge sound with incredible dynamics? Then Buy a Neolith. I’ve yet to hear ANY panel he as dynamic as the Neolith. Most shows do a piss poor job with the Neoliths but those who have taken the time to find the perfect amp for them, never ever look back. 
If you are looking for luxman 900u, you might want to talk to Whitecamaross. He has a huge thread here  and has reviewed them extensively. He’s owned those amps like 4 times and has gone through about 300 amplifiers in total. I also believe he owned Wilson Sasha 2 and now own the Neoliths. 

The OP is looking for a lush warm mids and sweet highs. The Martin Logan electrostats do not have warm lush mids and sweet smooth highs, they are complete opposite. I've heard various different ML electrostats ranging from their entry level ESL EM all the way to huge Renaissance. They have very vivid mids and highs very transparent with huge soundstages when paired with the right amps, but do not possess warm lush mids and sweet highs. The ML electrostats aren't right for the OP as he's looking for warm lush sound. Besides, he has already purchased the Wilson Sasha DAW. Now he's looking for kind of electronics that can reproduce full warmth lush mids and sweet highs. 

ML electrostats panels aren't for everyone. I found them lacking organic natural sound and can be somewhat sterile and lacking full bodied and blossom mids. They are too vivid and too transparent for my taste and have somewhat lean lacking full bodied type of sound profile compared to say Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, Magico M3 or M6, Wilson Alexx. ML electrostats are great and perfect for HT application IMO. 

Fyi, every time I did listen to ML electrostats panels they were paired with some big McIntosh monoblock amps and their tube preamps. McIntosh gears are known for their full bodied sound. 

Some people love ML electrostats panels and would discard just about any other cabinetry speakers. My buddy is a big ML electrostats lover and is a huge fan of them. 

I disagree with panels being great for home theater. They are NOT dynamic by nature UNLESS you are talking about the Neoliths. Why would panels be good for home theater when they lack the needed dynamics for movies ? I have tried panels myself for home theater and they didn’t have the dynamic swings that conventional speakers do.
You are right though, they are very real to the source and won’t sugar coat piss poor electronics.
Lastly, I am not saying for the OP to get any electrostatic. I’m saying for him to look at the world’s best electrostatic built today. There’s a reason WHY there is a huge gap in price between the renaissance Logan and the Neolith. I actually went with a friend of mine to listen to some Alexia 2, VR 55s, and persona 7f speakers. The dealer had all 3 of them and there was a pair of Neolith tucked away in the corner so my buddy asked the dealer if he could play them for shits and giggles and the dealer’s words were “ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THAT? THIS IS ON ANOTHER LEVEL AND PRICE POINT...” so he proceeded to set them up really quick and plugged in the same amps he had been using for the other speakers we auditioned and the moment the music started to play, I SWEAR I felt like we went from watching a movie at somebody’s home theater to an IMAX commercial movie  theater. The tremendous width, height, huge mids and air in the room was just too much for the rest of the speakers to even compete. As a matter of fact, it was a laughing matter to try to compare because there was nothing to compare.
With all that said, yes to go from the Sasha DAW to the Neolith would cost a pretty penny. It’s not a lateral move financially speaking since the Neoliths are more than twice the price of the Sasha DAW and they should be based on what I have heard. 

Thanks for the advice on other speakers but I’m focusing on the Wilson DAW right now. I still have a pair of electrostatic speakers and am fully aware of their strengths and weaknesses. I have been through all kinds of electrostatics and do appreciate what they can do. I’ve owned Quads, ML CLS, Prodigy and even the big Sound Lab Ultimates. While they do some pretty cool stuff they are huge and require a lot of room. Even with all that done right I still feel the Wilson Sasha DAWs Have distinct advantages over them  in many areas. IMO The DAWs even rival the best electrostatics in Transparency, imaging, tonal balance and sheer weight of the instruments when compared to live music. To me the Wilsons Sasha DAWs are just very pleasant to listen too and draw me in. 

@avcr79  

I was referring to Neoliths being great when used for high end HT application. I have heard the Neoliths in a HT setup and was blown away.

What amp is best with Wilson Sasha DAW speakers

Where are all the Class-D spruikers? their silence is deafening, not one that I can quickly see recommending them.
Even though these are Wilson Sasha's are 91db, they know that Class-D doesn't have a look in compared to linear amps driving these speakers type of loading.
Which aren't that hard, check out the impedance v phase of the Wilson Alexia for a hard load and Class-D belittler.

Cheers George  

I think there will be many pairings of the Wilson’s with the new ARC Ref 160s. Has two new features to ARC that make it very user friendly. There are to be fuses located just after each KT 150’s rather than resistors which required some effort to replace plus it has a new auto bias scheme. Too damn expensive but i’m sure it’s a super match. 

Hi 4425:
I have that combo. The ref 160s and Alexia 2s. It is an extraordinary combo. My personal favorite of all the amplifiers I have heard with Alexias regardless of price.

I would refrain from recommending a specific amplifier, especially without knowing about the room the speakers are going to be in, the source components, etc. But regarding Wilson Audio, their speakers are VERY revealing of everything in a recording, good and bad. The second rule I would say is (typically) their impedance drops really low and they don't design them any other way. If the new tweeters they're using is an improvement over the Focal's they used to use (and modify), you should have a wider range of equipment you can match them to. And as much as I hate to sound snobbish, but a CLEAN amp that doesn't "sizzle" in the treble region usually costs more. It has to drive the speaker effortlessly all day and all night. One last thing- cables are important, but...here's where the snake oil is overly abundant- especially power cords. Also, It is almost impossible to plug an amp into anything but the wall. Let the amp clean up your power- most of them do this.

gpgr4blu: you’re one of the very first that I know of to have a 160s in your hands. if you don’t mind i have a few questions:
1. which mode do you prefer?
2. how does it look? build quality? meters; cool or distraction?
3. anything stick out regarding the sound? 

no worries if you don’t have time to respond. 

The Wilson Sasha DAW is a great speaker and nothing like it predecessor the Sasha 2.  I compared the two in a side by side AB comparison. I first went to the dealer to buy the Sasha 2 but after hearing the DAWs I was blown away at how much more real and organic they sounded. I bought the DAWs instead,  night and day difference.   The sense of presence and the soundstage was much better on the Sasha DAW.  This was not an extravagant system either. VTL 5.5 S2 and a pair of Pass mono blocs. The impedance on the DAW is much easier on the amp than their past models.  It’s is a revealing speaker but not in the sense of brightness just a very clear window into what upstream. I’m sure the ARC ref 160s would sound great I’m just not sure yet if I want to deal with a full tube amp.  However once I hear it I might want to. Any DAW owners out there been through the selection process and compared. 

ARC > VTL on Wilson in my experience. Only the 75SE and more recent ARC however. The older stuff sounds like SS.

Hi 4425:
1-i prefer ultra linear mode
2-build quality is great and they are very cool looking amps although in the first few runs, the see through double pane plastic on the face of the amps in which the meters are sited are not as clear as I would like. I believe ARC may have solved the problem in later runs. I love the meters and they do not distract from the presentation. 
3-These are simply great all around amps with the typical ARC broad macro presentation but with very revealing micro dynamics and powerful deep bass. I love them. My personal opinion is that ARC and VTL are the best tube amps for Wilson. And I prefer tubes over solid state although I am also a fan of D’agostino solid state with Wilsons.

Gpgr4blu:  are you using a full ARC system?  Which preamp are you running with the ref 160 with and cables too if you don’t mind. 

Hi carey1110:
I have a Ref 40 pre and a Ref Phono 2 phono stage. My cables are mainly Shunyata Anaconda Zitron although I use MIT for my Spectral cdp and Audioquest WEL signature reference for phono cable.

Hi carey1110:
Have had my Sasha DAW's for about 5 weeks now.  They are paired with Convergent Audio Technology Renaissance preamp and JL5 amplifier.  I would say it has the organic qualities to it.  Enjoying the combo immensely. I just keep putting on more music. Still getting better as speakers are still breaking in.  Have fun with your search.

Jazzbass what kind of power are we talking about with the CAT amps. Are you getting ample bass.  Good depth etc.  I always thought you’d have Solid-State for the Wilsons.