Speaker upgrade

You may want to look into Lansche Audio these are within your price range https://www.lansche-audio.com/products/no-5-2/, you may find a deal on a older model used pair.

Your REL's can get you down to the low frequency range, and the plasma tweeter will definitely reveal another level of detail in the midrange as well as exposing the upper frequencies like no other...  The down side is that you would have to invest in two additional power chords.

Good luck

just had a brain storm. Call Jim Salk and describe what you got and what you want and see what he has to offer.

Have a listen to the Martin Logan CLX Art or Renaissance ESL 15. You might be pleasantly surprised  - they do exceedingly well on the type of music you listen to (except rock).

As a musician, they are the closest I've heard to having the instruments in the room with you.

++ Joseph Audio. @romney80 when you are ready to sell you aerial 7t please pm me. I also heard the Rockport Avior II. They are also very neutral and transparent and might provide you better resolution... Can you hear them before you make a purchase?Good luck with your search.. 
Happy Listening!!

They look like incredible speakers.  To be curious, what kind of power do you need to drive these and what would it cost?  Looks like a lot of speaker for $28,000/pair.  I think they have soft dome tweeters.  If so, do soft dome tweeters sound better?  I noticed Vienna Acoustics speakers use soft dome tweeters.  I liked the sound of those.  

@audiokinesis You have very good understanding on room acoustics. Very few people have that, including me. Will certainly be in touch with you when I have to do some more changes, which will be done after my speaker purchase.
@abd1 I have heard some reviews on Nenuphar mini and 10 inch speakers. I heard them on videos too and they sounded very musical and clean. I am not sure, I might go for them. They are best with tube amps. 
@larryi Vandys especially model 7 are phenomenal as per many people and reviews. I may consider putting them on list, if I can find a dealer near me. 
@danvignau That will be ideal. I wish I could listen to them extensively but so many factors including the set up, audio gears behind them and the room where I hear. 

Vienna Acoustics The Music.

Looks like Joseph audio gets many votes, for good reason. This speaker has advantage of being an underdog among big players and hence a lot of sympathy. I can sense that and I also want to promote those kind of brands. But besides that, are there anybody here who have owned them. Will be good to hear from them too. It is easy to recommend all these speakers (some of them are so new to me), but consider this: "if it is my money, will I buy this". Throwing all the speakers at me when I am trying to narrow down makes it a long discussion without results. Meanwhile, I am going to find dealers to listen to Vimberg Tonda, Vonschweikert vr-55, Vandy 7, JA pearls. Will again listen to Magico S5MK2, and Avior II to make final decision.

Anybody knows any VSA VR-55, JA and Vandy dealers around Indy ?

I bought my last pair of speakers 10 years ago, Soundlab 945's, hot-rod, toroidal, bass focus. EVERY change made upstream is revealed. The  MOST sound investment I have ever made, Period !!

Romney80 wrote: " audiokinesis you have very good understanding on room acoustics... Will certainly be in touch with you when I have to do some more changes, which will be done after my speaker purchase."

Thank you for the vote of confidence, romney80. And speaking of votes, you got mine in 2012 (assuming you’re THAT Romney).

However my area of expertise is not room acoustics; I’m a loudspeaker designer. I would defer to a professional acoustician, or to the dealer you buy your speakers from, regarding treatment of YOUR room for YOUR speakers.

My thoughts about loudspeaker/room interaction are informed by the work of concert hall acoustician David Griesinger, and here are a few relevant quotes:

“The earlier a reflection arrives the more it contributes to masking the direct sound.”

“When presence is lacking the earliest reflections are the most responsible.”

“Envelopment is the holy grail of concert hall design. When reproducing sound in small spaces [home listening rooms], envelopment is often absent.”

“Envelopment is perceived when the ear and brain can detect TWO separate streams: A foreground stream of direct sound, and a background stream of reverberation. Both streams must be present if sound is perceived as enveloping.”

So the implication is that IF we want clarity and presence and envelopment, THEN we should minimize the energy in early reflections but still have plenty of energy in later reflections. And there should be a time gap in between the first-arrival sound and the strong onset of reflections. With polydirectional loudspeakers like the von Schweikerts and the Boenickes I see the opportunity for a setup with these attributes.

Of course these are not the only things that matter, but they are often overlooked, and imo are worth the effort.

I happen to be a longtime dealer for the SoundLabs that gallassero mentions. They are even bigger than Maggies and therefore presumably not remotely feasible in this situation, BUT when set up correctly (which is not complicated) they do an excellent job of delivering the "TWO streams" Griesinger talks about.

Duke

If I could make the commitment to buying speakers blind with a checkbook big enough match components later or say an additional $25k for components it would be easy to choose speakers. 
I've been thru a few and am enjoying a couple now 1 passive and 1 active dsp. I think while i'm trying passive speakers I'm going to try the Kef Blades as I've seen amplification as meager as the hegel h360 drive them and they have potential.

"If I can get more of everything my 7T does, it will be a jackpot." 

Sometimes as here, solutions (or at least the clear, first step of exploration) are hiding in very plain sight indeed. That would be to listen to what the man who created your speakers has done when he wanted to radically improve on them - & then did it again to that solution. Which would be the Aerial 20T V2. Extraordinarily higher technology tweeter, much better materials in both, a much better midrange & woofers, radically improved xover (especially in the 2nd version) & all markedly improved on the second version of a speaker (that got rave reviews in the first place & then raves for the improvement). It's in your price range new but there's a mk 1 version for sale in the U.S. here > 
https://kahlaudio.com/products/aerial-acoustics-model-20t-former-flagship-stereophile-recommended-28...
Highly recommend that if you buy these, you have them sent to Aerial for the V2 upgrade.  There are tons of dealers (listed on Aerial's website) so it should be possible for you to audition them somewhere not too far from you.

"if it is my money, will I buy this". Throwing all the speakers at me when I am trying to narrow down makes it a long discussion without results.

I completely Agree and Understand. And I apologize for throwing in brands that may not be a consideration. That said the way I look at this is that 35k is a substantial long term investment. It is important to have as much information in order to make the best decision. I ask myself what brand is going to give me the best value - evaluated at cost and advanced performance. unfortunately it is a long discussion, but one that I believe is worth having.

The way I would approach editing down to a short list is to look for brands that are capable of producing a frequency measurement that captures as much of the Audible Environment at which Humans Process Sound
(15hz -150kHz). Not many even get to100kHz.

I think the only speaker that can achieve this is the Lansche 8.2 - and its way over the 35K budget, however the technology behind it - the plasma tweeter - is carried throughout their entire portfolio. They produce a speaker within budget with an upper frequency of 150kHz. the lower Frequency is 25Hz. If you paired it with the 2 RELs the system could potentially produce a frequency range of 18/20Hz - 150kHz - depending on room treatment etc.

Even if you are not interested in this brand, the information is relevant because it provides comparable options on how you can achieve your goals. What brands that do interest you are going to perform at or close to the targeted measurement within budget? Some brands mentioned are in a significantly higher price range. Some brands measurements are much better than others. 

Magico, Marteen and Vandersteen have very impressive measurements 

VR - 55 are strong 

Rockports, Joseph Audio,  Vivid Audio measure in around the same as the Aerial acoustics 7T and may perhaps be a lateral step rather than a significant step forward. 

The measurements only help to determine the short list. As you know, what is going to make the ultimate decision is your ears. 

IMHO - I did not care so much for Magico, I have not heard Marten and really like the Vandersteen. I found Rockport and Jospeph disappointing. Vimberg is a subsidiary of Tidal (I found thin)  and although sexy, I think for the money there is much better. 

Other considerations, I know - Longer discussion, but at least you have more info to compare...

GamuT RS7 - impressive measurements - these guys are completely vertically integrated
http://www.gamutaudio.com/speakers/rs7i
Owned by https://dantaxradio.dk/
Driver production https://www.scan-speak.dk/
Cabinet production http://www.kvist.com/

Verity Audio Sarastro IIS - impressive measurements
http://www.verityaudio.com/en/loudspeakers/exr-serie/sarastro-iis

DeVore Fidelity - sleeper, Silverbacks one of the best produced
Same Measurements as VR55 for less than 1/2MRSP ( listing below 1/3 ) the price. Not as vertically integrated as GamuT, but definitely influenced
Rare find:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa4158-devore-fidelity-silverback-reference-full-range

Company https://devorefidelity.com/
Cabinet production https://www.boxfurnitureco.com/

When you have the Final - Finalist list, reach out to manufacturers themselves and let them know that your looking to make a substantial purchase, but would like auditions. They should be able to help you navigate the process, if not - then they just helped you edit the list.

Rockports, Joseph Audio, Vivid Audio measure in around the same as the Aerial acoustics 7T and may perhaps be a lateral step rather than a significant step forward.

HA! I think not. I’d take a $35k speaker from any of those manufacturers over the 7T seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Lateral move my ass, and that they may measure similarly means precisely bupkis. I’ve heard the 7T and it’s a very nice speaker for sure, but against the Aviors, Pearls, Giyas — not a chance in hell. Measurements are important, but they ain’t near enough to throw out a statement like that.

If you are seriously considering speakers north of $25K, TAD should be on your audition list. Far more engaging and musical than that of Magico, Wilson, and Rockport. The VR55's, however, are something special.

Wouldn't it be cool if you could just bolt a supercharger onto the 7t and be done? There's a pair of persona 9h currently listed for less than a pair of 5f's so buy em and try em. They do better with warmer electronics but at the price they're listed if you don't like them at home resell them.

I have the persona 7f I bought in october this year and while I don't think I need the 9h capabilities for my music at this price I would have.

I own Wilson Sophia I was happy with my system  , after I audition Rockport Cygnus I couldn’t erase that sound from my head and I just had to stopped listening my equipment for a month to adjust my self to the previous state . Rockport that’s it!!! Ofcours who can afford it 🙂

I listened to the Rockport speakers at Axpona 2019, I believe they were the Avior II. I was really impressed, in fact I listened to them twice. As long as the form factor and weight are ok for you, they would get my vote.

@laauadionut TAD speakers are one hell of a speakers. The one which I like is the reference one, but they are very expensive and even if I get used one, difficult to sell them. Besides, they are heavy beasts.

@john1 I wish aerial acoustics start making new speaker lines. They have vanished except for audiogon discussion forums. The 20T looks very outdated and off. But have heard from people they sound fantastic.

@ggc. I admired the Gamut Rs7i. I listened to them and they are one of the best speakers to listen for extended periods. I listened to them with Accuphase integrated (don’t remember the model). At first, they sounded dull, but as you listen, you realize how finesse they are, with good dynamics and adds soul to the voice. I thought they expensive for their offerings and even if I buy one, they are difficult to re-sell,

I know many have recommended Wilson Audio. I like them and at some point, I considered WA Sasha DAW. But their looks are like split personality. They look good with grills on, but with girls out, they look very ordinary. They do sound fantastic, mostly with grills out. Besides they need at least 4 feet from the from the front wall to get best results, and this position will be like touching my seating area.

I have kept Rockport Avior II on top so far. Once I audition, it might change, but doubt it.

The Joseph Audio Pearl 20/20 would be another fantastic unit to consider.

Yes, Joseph Audio Pearl is in my list. Have anybody heard monitor audio PL500II. Have heard in shows and people who buy it have kept it as end game speakers. The are tall and look good and sound very musical. Somewhat under rated but am considering it too.

Why not the big Magnepans?

Magnepans are wonderful speakers. I like big speakers. But, they are just too big for me. There is “big” and there is “magnepan big”. 

I use AER BD3 drivers in Oris 150 front horns from 200 Hz to 8kHz in my fully horn loaded, DEQX DSP controlled, tri amplified DIY speakers.  To my old, but experienced ears the SQ is excellent.  That experience makes me think the Charney might merit a serious listen.

How about auditioning Borresen speakers.

Love those borreson speakers looks. Never heard them but people who have heard them have given very good comments. I think they are over priced. A used one might be real world price for half or so. I think monitor audio PL500II ticks most of my boxes. Leaning towards that. 

I’m thinking of taking a flyer on a used pair of Borresen 05.  

If somebody has a room and amps for Apogee Diva or Full Range in very good condition, they would never think of getting other speakers. The only thing is, it is hard to find one for sale nearby.

I am also looking for a speaker upgrade in the $35k to $60k range.  The VS VR55 requires more power but I've heard the Ultra series and it duplicates the needs for me.  It has the widest listening area of all of the speakers listed and recreates the recording environment exactly.  They are not flat at the highs but are easy to listen to for hours.   If I keep my amps, I would buy the VR9SE mkII or E5 (which I have not heard).  The VS are easier to place in a room as well and get great sound.

The Magicos turn me off after auditioning a dozen+ over 18 times.  No emotional attachment.  The Wilsons sound large and I recommend their smaller speakers over their larger ones (I don't like their large speakers).  I found the Rockports a little soft but lovely just as I do Sonus Fabers.  Tidal speakers sound wonderful just like Magnapans for vocals and jazz but not rock and orchestral works when I've heard them.  I suspect the Vimberg's are similar.  The reviews of the Tekton indicate that they are more like giant headphones, excellent for the central listener, totally opposite the VS speakers approach (and not as sophisticated-but at an inexpensive price).  I haven't heard the Joseph Pearls or Vandersteens.  Some say the Evolution Acoustics are similar to VS speakers at half the price.  

My listening room was custom engineered with built in bass traps and has ample mid and high acoustic treatment.  My current Legacy Focus speakers improved 100% in this room compared to my previous, not shabby room.  Another speaker I like at lot, easy to drive and like VS is the Lumenwhites, similar price range (3 models).  I've heard Marten speakers and they are also very good but I don't know if I would want to live with them.  Plus, the VS drivers are among the most durable ceramic type.  

Based on your desire for "organic and sweet mids" and the type of music you're listening to I would explore the Egglestonworks and in particular the Andra model. I admit I have not heard them other than listening online which is certainly not effective. However, they are known for their very natural mid-range. Perhaps other Andra owners could chime in. Here's a link.....

http://egglestonworks.com/products/the-andra-iii/

@fleschler VS VR55 and ultra 55 are ultimate end game speakers if you can afford them. I am thinking of keeping budget little low < 25K. Will wait for some deals on VS VR 55 or ultra in next few years. Also they need bigger room to really shine.
@falconquest eggleston works are well known for being organic and musical. Not sure about andra but Viginiti have lot of rave reviews. Not heard them though.
I am now close to make some decisions. Will audition few speakers this weekend, but MA PL500II has lot of speaker for money. Have heard them a while back and no dealer near me has them to audition now. But I was wowed back then. If by this weekend, if none of speakers wows me as much, especially for the price difference, I will go with MA PL500II and wait for some deals on VS VR 55 or ultras.

Don’t mean to beat the proverbial dead dog, but seeing as you’re lowering your price limit I’ll mention there’s a rare pair of JA Pearl 3s available here now for $18,200.  Woof.  

Why are so many people promoting JA? These are off-the-shelf parts standard speaker designs. Which is fine, but it seems like a LOT of money for what is essentially premium DIY speakers.

@romney80

I was trying to keep the price modest. ;-) I agree with you but I would also own the VR-55’s in a second!

Why are so many people promoting JA? These are off-the-shelf parts standard speaker designs. Which is fine, but it seems like a LOT of money for what is essentially premium DIY speakers.

Have you heard them?  That’s the reason.  Lots of “Best in Show” awards to back it up.  I challenge you to DIY the crossover.  It’s patented BTW. 

I heard “them” and it’s just another well made box speaker; they really are a dime a dozen where everyone has a favorite cause what it really comes down to is what music you predominantly listen to. And that should determine the speakers you demo and ultimately buy. And then that mostly comes down to the crossover design. Soooo....let’s start over, what music do you listen to ?

I heard “them” and it’s just another well made box speaker; they really are a dime a dozen where everyone has a favorite cause what it really comes down to is what music you predominantly listen to. And that should determine the speakers you demo and ultimately buy. 

Well, that’s one take on it.  Unfortunately I find it’s quite a bit more difficult and involved than that.  Of course that also makes it that much more rewarding when you ultimately narrow it down to the right speaker.  Telling me what type of music someone listens to doesn’t help me make recommendations much precisely because box speakers — or any good speakers — are NOT “a dime a dozen.”  If you really think that, then what are you even doing here?  Yeesh. 

@soix
Ok you totally missed my point so I’ll try to simplify as best I can.
If you haven’t figured it out yet from the countless threads, and by an order of magnitude, even more countless posts, everyone has a flavor of speaker they worship and defend and profess to tell you why theirs is the best and yours simply is not — it’s the human condition on display.
But, and a big but, since our brains all hear differently it’s mostly all subjective so what then is the common denominator, if any, and putting aside economics?
Well taking in all these countless threads and even more countless posts, it tends to come down to the type of music one predominantly listens to —their musical preference whether it’s pop, classical, jazz, rock, etc that person generally is more likely to favor a certain speaker type/crossover design over another. Hope that helps ! Of course you can over complicate it but what’s the point of that? Life is difficult enough but this really isn’t.

it tends to come down to the type of music one predominantly listens to —whether it’s pop, classical, jazz, rock, etc that person generally is more likely to favor a certain speaker type/crossover design over another.

No, it doesn’t just tend to come down to that at all. The fact is that many well-designed speakers can play any genre of music really well. Then there’s the other side where people, like me, listen to almost every genre of music. With the plethora of excellent speakers out there, just knowing what type of music one listens to does very little to whittle down what speaker to buy. If you think you can make an excellent recommendation based on what music people listen to then you’re grossly underestimating many, many other extremely important variables and you’re just kidding yourself.

everyone has a flavor of speaker they worship and defend and profess to tell you why theirs is the best and yours simply is not — it’s the human condition on display.

And that is precisely why you can’t recommend a speaker for someone based on what music they listen to. And this is why I recommended the Pearls to the OP — not because it’s MY preferred flavor but because it has the sound characteristics he said HE values and is looking for, which gives you a lot more to go on than just music genre in my book. Again, lots of speakers can play multiple genres of music very well so it’s not sufficient to make a meaningful recommendation. Sorry if this concept is just too complicated for you, but I certainly understand why it could be comforting for someone to think they can pick speakers simply by music genre when they’re not capable of dealing with more of the important decision metrics. Maybe simple just works at your level. Congrats.

Sorry to bring up a tangential point. I have a foolish question. I’m a violinist and have a decent music system (I think) and a listening room with acoustic treatments etc. But if I wanted To upgrade my speakers, how would I go about to even come up with a short list?  I mean how do you guys do it?  Try out dozens of them?  I live in Santa Fe NM, so it’s not a metropolis with tons of audiophile shops. 

@ssmaudio   Decide on a budget.  Describe the rest of your system.  Describe the dimensions and salient features of your listening room.  Describe the kind of sound/presentation you're aiming for.  Post all this information in a new thread and let the recommendations roll in.

@ssmaudio. Many factors. Besides budget and your listening taste, there are certain things that let’s you narrow down. The soundstage you want, the gears (amps, streamers, dac) you have, how much bass you want, the size of speakers, the looks (it does matter if you want your spouse approval), ease of driving the speakers. Once you have those, you will have to have understanding of sonic signature of each brand. I will pay attention to reviews (not always). I am not sure if anybody have had just one speaker first time and done with it. Sometimes you think you got best and may not be best match to your system, and may want to change, but it’s ok. One thing is for sure, there is nothing like perfect speaker, no matter how much you spend. It is just preference and you will have to compromise in some areas. If I don’t have near by dealer to audition, I pay attention to reviews and also listen on YouTube just to get some idea. As you know, not all reviews are transparent, I get some thoughts from fellow audiophiles in forums for real world experience and ideas. Even this can get tedious, as you ask for hep to narrow down, but you may get lot of suggestions, which is good most of times. Hope this helps.

I am in a similar situation as you, sim. budget, room size, etc.  I run a VAC Statement 450SiQ w/ a Signature SE power plant.  Current speakers are Daedalus Athena (of 8+ yrs).  Though I am considering staying in-house w/ new Daedalus Apollos, I have auditioned/reviewed Borresen 01s, and would be very interested in 03s.  At the top of my list are the Von Schweikert Endeavor SE, however have not heard/auditioned, just from research and chats with Leif.  I am aware of the close great synergy w/ VAC power plants, so definitely leaning this direction.  

@mbump Your list is good one. I am not sure of the Endeavor SE, but review from parttimeaudiophile was very positive. They gave editors choice award. Damon from VSA is very friendly guy on email and he can be very transparent in his suggestions. VSA speakers are very reliable. As I mentioned, I have made up my mind for MA PL500II and will wait for VS VR55 deals in future. But I am sure you will not go wrong with Endevour SE. I could not see the price of those speakers. How much do they cost ?. See if they can demo or trial them to your house first ?

I have speakers that I like a lot.  I would never consider replacing them with anything I have not heard, unless it is an upgrade of the same brand.  Many of the people here have things I do not care for, and I am certain the feeling should be mutual.  Don't listen to us.  Listen to the speakers.

@danvignau I wish it is easy as you say. There are some things we know and some things we don't know. I thought, the list I started was good enough. Only with exchanging ideas (audiophile world is pretty small) do we get to know more about real world experience and also got to know some new ones (even though too many new suggestions, which is expected in any forums), which I was not aware. Many times, when we listen to them in dealers, it does not exactly translate to what we hear at our house. This has happened many times. I wanted to get some "real world" experience from people who have "heard" them, and hence the post.
At same time, I agree with your recommendation about upgrading to same brand. I wish Aerial acoustics made better and bigger version of 7t, like 9t or 10t. 20t is too outdated and looks awkward compared to contemporary looks of 7t. 

Wilson’s with the latest soft dome tweeter are what you’d want in that brand. The DAW or Yvette bought used would probably fit your bill. However I would also take a listen to Magnepan if you have the room for them. I think 10k and downward would get the job done if you have the space. 

@4425 I had Wilson in my list especially Sasha DAW. They are amazing speakers, but as mentioned, they need to kept at least 4 feet from front wall and also their looks is "like it or hate it". I have never fell for those looks, especially when you take those grills out. And they sound best with grills out.
Magnepans are very big. I like their sound but their size is too big for me. I do like tall speakers, but they are pretty big. 
I am very close to finalize monitor audio PL500II. They are a lot of speaker for the money and very under rated. Not many have heard, but those who have heard them, have kept it as end game speakers. The other speaker above this one is Rockport Avior II, but I think I will buy MA PL500II and save some money. 
Will eventually wait for VSA VR-55 later, if I get a good deal. 

@bpoletti I would like to thank you for your suggestion of placing the artificial ficus tress behind speakers. I placed few artificial palm trees behind my speakers, and yes they made huge improvement in sound. They are very good sound diffusers and made huge change in sound positively. I think, this is one of the best bang for buck on SQ other than my Fidelium speaker cables. I am planning to get some artifact ficus trees to keep between the speakers too. Once I get my new speakers and all set up, I am going post more, including pictures on Agon.