I currently own PMCs, and went back several times during recent CAF to hear the Salk speakers. The Song3s, two versions, were very good. Very competitive with the PMCs at a very competitive price. There might be other models in the Salk line-up that would have convinced me to take a leap. The Song3's were close, but didn't quite do it.
PMC vs. Salk Sound Speakers. Which is better?
PMC speakers out of England have come on like a freight train in recent years including being awarded an Emmy for outstanding performance as speakers in mixing sound tracks for top motion pictures. Their high end home line of speakers always get good reviews but their prices seem very high compared to other speakers. Salk appears to make great speakers at much lower prices. For example, the Salk Veracity HT3 costs $6K and the PMC PB1i cost $14K. Has anyone compared these brands and which do you think is better?
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In response to Norton’s post of 04/03/2013, better late than never: " Whether he’s a shill or not, I don’t know, but I have never heard any Salk speakers so can’t comment on them, PMC is another matter." I’m not sure exactly what you mean by a "shill" but I consider this statement to be an insult. He has been in business for many years and has a very happy client base. You post a negative opinion about Jim and his speakers without ever meeting him or hearing his speakers? That’s nothing short of ludicrous and I think an apology is on order. |
Ditto what Mark said. People should focus much less on the cost of the raw drivers, or the fancy auto paint job on the cabinets, or whatever else they complain about - unless that's as important as resulting sound (and to many it is). But I believe music lovers should care more about the design and implementation of the crossover circuit(s). There is a song about this point - where there was an old violin that nobody wanted at auction... until the value soared... after they heard it played - with the touch of an master's hand. Likewise, God cares not so much about how much you have or what you don't have, but much more so about what you DO with that which you do have. |
as pointed out above, and a point with which I agree, the 'pudding' in speaker design and manufacturing lies in the crossover - any decent cabinet maker can copy a speaker enclosure design and produce a nice looking cabinet, line it with damping material and cut out holes for the drivers; anybody can get online and sort through a variety of very high quality drivers that have worked together in existing speaker designs and screw them into the box; but without a properly designed crossover, built with quality parts, all you have at that point is a nice looking box with really good drivers in it. Now what? I have recent firsthand experience which supports this opinion: based on a plethora of raving reviews, I bought a pair of highly acclaimed monitors in which the factory drivers and crossover were installed; the speakers were broken in. This well known U.S. speaker maker sold them to me directly, (he does not sell through dealers) and he assured me they'd be a great match with my pre-amp and amplifiers. I won't mention the name, but this producer sells speakers that many on this site are in love with. I was sold and I was excited! Given that the speakers were used and well broken in, my expectation was I'd be hearing a finished product immediately. Less than two evenings into the experiment, my wife and I looked at each other and said we either need to turn them down permanently and listen only at low volume, or get rid of them. They were fine at low volumes (though missing the great bass everyone raved about), but as soon as some juice was applied, the high end turned harsh and the musicality of the speaker just disappeared. Enter Mike Farnsworth previously of Talon Audio. I described my dilemma to Mike and after I told him what I had, he offered to install new crossovers in the monitors. He said the box is fine, the drivers were fine, but based on what he read about the circuit, he said a circuit change would result in a truly great speaker. He spoke in terms of 'linearity'. Increasing the power to the speaker should not change the nature of the sound; tone and character should remain constant, with everything sounding louder, but not different. By no means do I have any technical expertise, I just know what I hear. And I certainly have not heard even a fraction of the components that are out there. Once free to design the speakers he wanted to, Mike (as I understand it) is responsible for designing several truly great speakers: Firebird, Khorus X mk II, Raven C, Thunderhawk. All with the CMRC circuit. Once the CMRC circuit was installed in my monitors, with the exception of the bass response, they rivaled the clarity, musicality, effortlessness and soundstaging of my Khorus X mk II's. I don't know anything about the Salk or the PMC circuits, but my opinion is the circuit matters, and not in a small way. FWIW, my pre-amp is a First Sound and my amps are Jungson JA-50's. |
I'm in the market to listen to some PMC speakers, as they've been by & far the most recommended speaker from people on various forums. This thread seems to echo a lot of my price/looks thoughts; they seem like they're extremely expensive speakers, that aren't really that sexy. But at that end of the day, if they're able to reproduce the music faithfully, then it will be worth the money. I haven't heard a single speaker or setup yet that can do Electronic music properly, so hopefully PMC can change that all. |
FWIW, I just came across this recent review of PMC IB2i by Aron Garrecht on Ultra Audio. Some conclusions: "What the IB2i made clear is that, as always, sound is paramount, and when it came to sound, PMCs IB2i is a beguilingly good-sounding speaker that I found difficult to stop listening to.... The integration of the drivers outputs was so good that they reminded me of the point-source coaxial drivers used in such speakers as KEFs Blade. The quality of bass on tap from PMCs ATL technology and robust carbon-fiber piston driver working as one is also equal to or better than that of most floorstanding bass-reflex designs Ive heard in this price range. But the real jewel of the IB2i is its exquisite dome midrange driver -- it provided the most neutral, natural, lifelike midrange Ive heard in a speaker south of $40,000." He, too, questions their price but finds it justified by the sound quality. Having lived with these speakers for a couple of years, I find his analysis right on. YMMV. |
Totally agree with you wrm57. I just object to the nonsensical attitude expressed by a few on this thread that basically are saying "yeah, sure, PMCs sound great, but just look at those cheap parts in the crossover." A speakers price should be mostly a factor of it's sound quality. If we attach a "rip off" label to every speaker whose price is not justified by the cost of the raw materials we'd have a really long list. If a speaker costs less to make but sounds competitive in its price bracket than I say bravo to that brilliant piece of engineering. It also calls into question the validity that those exotic and costly parts are more than just marketing gimmicks. Apparently they are not necessary. But they do provide something to brag about. "Forget the sound, do you have any idea what type of inductor is inside that cabinet!!!!" |
I listen to jazz most of the time, although my tastes run the gamut, through two extremely refined vinyl rigs with excellent electronics. My PMC IB2i sound terrific to me on everything. Consummate versatility is one of their best features. By no means does my delight in my PMC model imply that Salk doesn't make terrific speakers, too. This thread sets up a false opposition between two brands, both of which may be excellent at the same time. Audio is not a zero-sum competition. And really, $16K to one buyer may mean less than $9K to another. |
And BTW, mrmitch if you knew anything about engineering you would know that having a "custom made" speaker is nothing to brag about. It makes you 10 times more likely to pay a lot of money for a speaker that looks good but sounds like cr@p. Great design and great engineering is process of refinement and evolution. I'd much rather have a speaker that the designer poured over for years slowly improving and refining (like PMCs) than a one off "custom designed " speaker. What makes a speaker sound good is NOT simply quality parts, (what a ridiculous concept)' but the designer knowing the perfect use of just the right parts and that comes from years of investment in a design not a "custom" design. LMFAO! |
Laughing at the person who stated that $16,000 PMC's sound like $16,000 speakers. I have Salk Soundscape 8's which were $9000 and yet they sound like $16,000 speakers for half the price! LOL . Will PMC custom-make spepakers for you? No. Salk does-maybe one of the reasons mine sound so great is the Mundorf Silver in Oil capacitors which I had asked for. I havent noticed any genre of music that isnt terrific on the Salk's and I have both CD and vinyl. Is the Salk the greatest speaker ever? Of course not, but it's crazy-good for what you pay for. |
Schubert, the PMCs do sound amazing with rock music, but I listen to a lot of indie, alternative, acoustic, blues, and folk rock as well. They sound bloody amazing with everything I play. If you have a stellar recording, they sound shockingly lifelike. They are the most accurate mid range I've ever heard (talking about my ib2 here). The bass is full range and has more power than any speaker I've ever heard yet never sounds boomy or bloated. The only down side I can find is they sound best with loads of power. Everyone has different taste, but in my 30 years of enjoying this hobby buying the PMC ib2 has made me happier by far than any other single purchase. I'm a music lover first and an audiophile second. A lot of audiophiles say that, but they are often full of it. If you love music more than buying equipment (and there's no shame if you don't), then I strongly recommend trying PMC speakers. |
What a joke. All these comments about how cheap the PMC construction is and how expensive the Salk parts are, who gives a flying .... So a gold plated diamond crusted crossover would really be awesome!!! I don't care if the crossover is made if rusty tin cans and bottle caps. Does the $16k PMC IB2i sound like a $16k speaker? Damn straight. If you judge PMC based on sound quality (which in my book counts for 95%), are they still over priced then? Nope, might even make the case they are under priced. All the pmc speakers easily compete with all their similarly priced competition on SOUND QUALITY. And IMO, they beat the vast majority of that competition on sound quality. The REAL rip off is all the boutique speaker companies selling at outrageous prices WITHOUT delivering the sound quality, but justifying the price with fancy crossover parts and expensive cabinetry. I've got a gorgeous coffee table with solid gold claw feet, looks like a million bucks but it just doesn't sound as good as my PMCs for some reason... It's true, with PMC you are getting way less value in crossover parts and cabinetry than Salk. And I am sure Salk owners take great pride in showing off their Salk crossover quality and gleaming wood finish. At my house I prefer to wow my guests with music. But that's just me... |
PMC is a great speaker at used prices,not MSRP.... IB2s are incredible stand mounts and mate best with Sound Anchors but with a retail of nearly $16,000 is insane. I hade a pair of IB1 that were built in 2000 and they sounded great even after 10yrs and some AB1 that were 13yrs old and sounded great. ..IB2 with that BIG mid can reproduce some great vocals and $7750 is alot better than $16,00+$1000 for stands |
I haven't heard Salk either, but I have a pair of PMC FB1i's and a pair of Reference 3A Grand Veenas. In an odd turn of events I recently purchased the PMC's at close to full pop, which was more than 1000 dollars more than I bought the GV's for used. I do like the FB1i's but they are limited compared to a full blown statement loudspeaker such as the GV's. This would be the case in any comparison where price gets involved. I think PMC need to either get their cost down and pass it along, or amplify what they deliver for the money. The FB1i for all it's merits, which are many isn't really constructed in an impressive way when compared to other loudspeakers at even lower price. I know they are still 'made in England'. Performance wise compared to the GV; FB1i lacks bass and the midrange just seems missing. Like I said these things are levels apart in construction and configuration. I use them now in a second system and am quite happy. I look forward to hearing what can be done in the new 'fact' form factor that PMC is so excited about. Will be interesting... |
Are you kidding me ? I have had and sold many Speakers in my day And Solen capacitors Suck,as well as the white ceramic resistors gritty not refined at all. Look at Magico,or YG Mundorf Capacitors,and resistors as well as inductors. You donot skimp if sonic purity is important to you. The other parts are decent. Personally if you want top value for a Boutique company ,considered one of the best designers in the industry Bamburger loudspeakers have designed for Svs,Sonus Faber,Thiel And a bunch of others including Salk when they were starting out. PMC make some good speakers but lacking at premium parts. Parts like the worlds best Duelund resistors, and capacitors Mundorf makes good Xover products, clarity MR, Jupiter Ht all top shelf quality parts.I was just trying to point out besides the drivers ,the Xover is th Brain , Tuning,as well as quality drivers and cabinet will determine how pure and clean The music is ,as long as th cables, and electronics are of good quality. |
Hello, hello ! I have not heard Salk speakers yet but, in its price range, I can tell that the PMC Twenty 24 is a real killer. I've made extensive listening sessions, with all kinds of different equipment thrown in (CD players ranging from 700 to 4500, my old and beloved McIntosh MC2100 as well as B&K, Heed and Atoll amplifiers, Devialet integrated, McIntosh, Heed or Ayre preamps, balanced and unbalanced cables, etc), different kinds of music, and pretty much everything sounded incredibly good. HUGE bass for such a small speaker but, if I had to summarize there greatest quality, it would be "beautifully non-fatiguing". The kind of speakers which want you to - I know it's a cliché but, hey !, it's true... - re-listen to all your albums again and again. Very, VERY convincing ! So that's why I've now ordered Salk's Veracity ST's. After all, we all have "the right to know", right ? ;o) |
First, I have to agree with Dodgealum, this thread was pointless. Audiozen certainly got a rise out of a few people but I doubt anything was accomplished. I've never heard PMC speakers but based on Vapor1's link to the PMC crossover, I'd definitely have to pass, especially at their asking price. I doubt there's more than $50 worth of parts on each board and they're obviously very low quality. As for x-over design, I agree with a few others posts, the fewer parts the better. I'll take a simple 1st order series x-over with a minimum of parts any day and I absolutely hate the use of resistors. Usually, that glassy glare and sizzle you hear in the treble(mids too) is caused by those nasty resistors. I also agree with many of Bigkidz points including the one about "price of a component means nothing" and I certainly didn't find it to be as "stupid" as this thread started by Audiozen. Frankly, I've heard countless speakers and components over the years that carried 5 and 6 figure price tags that sounded like crap and I've heard just as many audio toys priced at fractions less that put them to shame. So... often, the price is meaningless! Finally, I've heard Salk speakers a few times under "show conditions" and have always enjoyed what I heard. I've never owned any of Jim's designs but have chatted with him and he seems like an intelligent designer. I'm not a huge fan of ribbons but he seems to get the best out of them. As for the cabinets, they really are beautiful and overall quality appears quite high. Well, I've wasted enough time on this "stupid" thread so I'm outta here! |
Never heard Salk but have been a avid PMC user for 3+ years. As good as the PMCs are they are seriously overpriced. My model is the OB1i, a nice 3 way floor stander that IMHO represents the best value, if possible, in the I series. When I purchased them the list price 3 years ago was $7500. They now list for $8500. About 2 years ago PMC introduced a step up model from the ob1i, the pb1i. It consists of exactly the same drivers and cabinet design but with a extra woofer and more height to house the double woofer array. I was interested in a listen but stopped dead in my tracks when learning this new model lists for 5 thousand more than the ob1i! This is for 1 extra driver and a little extra cabinet. The overall benefit of the extra driver is a more bass but for 5k. I ended up buying 2 used JL Audio Fathom f110 subs and a Bryston 10B sub crossover to augment the ob1is for less than 4 thousand. The bass is now light years ahead of the pb1i and a lot less cash. So after this long rant in a nutshell PMC sound great but they have to reign in prices. I am not saying switch production overseas but at least make the factory more efficient. As a side note the materials and assembly quality while very good in not great. |
I think Bigkidz hit the nail on the head. Whether you like PMC or Salk, it's possible to make either one sound good or bad by using ancillary equipment not suited to them. And it's just as possible for a $15,000.00 preamp and $25,000.00 amp to make a speaker sound bad (or good) as it is for a $1500.00 preamp and $2000.00 amp to make a speaker sound good or bad. Depends on the implementation of the components and if there's something about them that doesn't suit the speaker (or vice versa).One example: if you have an impedance mismatch between the output impedance of the preamp and the input impedance of the amp, then it's likely whatever speaker you are listening to them through isn't going to sound good. Interconects and speaker cables also provide plenty of opportunity to make or break how any speaker sounds. Either the Salk or the PMC (or any speaker) could sound very good in one system and sound like crap in another. Rooms and placement are another way to showcase your speakers or destroy what they're capable of. So when someone says this brand of speaker is great but that one is crap, what kind of system and room are they listening to them with/in? |
Bigkidz..the price of a component means nothing? What a stupid statement. I have a metal lunch box I converted into an integrated amplifier with a five inch speaker on the side and a internal transistor radio amp that I can sell you for $10K. Because it sounds great! Hell, when I buy a speaker, amp or preamp I make damn sure I look under the hood to know what I'm getting for the price. Not to just buy a product blindly at a high price because its a politically correct audio component. In the real world of costs, The PMC PB1i speaker should sell for $3K, not $14K. but since PMC has made a commercial name for itself in the Pro recording world, they want you to pay for the name first, and ignore the very low cost to make the PB1i speaker. Is their a better British speaker at a lower price that is superior to PMC? You betchum!! Proac!! Their killer stand mount monitor, The Response D, is only 26" high but weighs a very heavy 55 pounds, with better drivers and crossover, and it will play all the way down to 25Hz. Cost is only $6K. Or the very large Proac floor model, the D40-R, that is 47" high, weighs 88 pounds, and will play down to 20Hz. No need for a subwoofer. Cost is $12K, $2K less than the PMC. |
I got to agree with Vapor1 here and also Dodgealum. I don't post much here anymore because the questions never get answered but comes down to a lot of wienie wagging. Parts do make a difference and they don't have to be laid out in a neat order. Look inside a TRL Dude preamp. Wires all over the place. Circuit boards can also go bad over time do to heat, not sure how much heat in speakers but in repairing old tube gear I see many circuit boards damaged beyond repair. I wonder why a $14K speaker uses cheap parts? More expensive resistors don't cost that much more or even better caps but I see so many high end manufacturers of components using cheap parts (resistors, caps, volume control). That is why most people are spending so much on having upgraded parts installed. As far as the two speakers, I have heard both in different systems. Cannot say that I prefer either. I don't judge a speaker until I can hear it in my system with my gear. I know the sound of my system and room. Only then can I judge what I prefer. Too many times people hear something and say that they did not like the sound. Not sure how they come to that conclusion. For example in the past I heard Dodgealum's system. I brought over a preamp that I designed and I thought his system sounded completely different with my preamp. He has moved on to a different preamp since then and my preamp design is significantly better now also. I can tell you that most if not all of you have a preamp that does what my preamp does. The Salks won't sound murky or glassy. I have also heard manufacturers use components at shows that I wouldn't use with their speakers. I wonder all the time, do they think this sounds good? Why would they use that gear with those speakers? And last, the price of a component means nothing. It comes down to the sound in your system and what you prefer. And to me the only way to tell is to get them in your system. Happy Listening. |
Audiozen The issue with your view is I don't think you have had many people over to actually hear stuff - I have - nor have you gone to others places to hear different stuff - I have. It varies enormously what people think is a 'better' sound and system synergies cause widely varying effects. On my speakers for example my reference DAC sounds very dynamic, detailed and, for me, real sounding - so much so some hate it - describing the detail it reveals like ultraviolence - it's like watching clockwork orange and they don't like it. In other systems its very smooth and a bit boring - the exact opposite. It is quite possible some prefer PMC to Salk - its just the way Hi Fi is - if you don't like it - get over it - because its rampant in this hobby. I am very perturbed about the use of electrolytics in such an expensive speaker - but people listen to the sound - the parts used are simply what is used to give the sound - if they like it what difference does it make? You need to listen to more stuff with others - a LOT more stuff IMHO. Thanks Bill |
Audiozen, audiophiles also claim all kinds of advantages to: putting speaker wires on lifters; adding baubles to their racks to deal with "resonances"; 3' of power cable between the 30' of romex in their walls and their amps. Common knowledge, so to speak. Common knowledge with no basis in any kind of objective metric. It's common knowledge that Bigfoot is real too. If you're here to praise Salk's stuff, fine. But spare the mumbo-jumbo about fuses turning an amp or preamp from blah into something positively amazing. This is a speaker forum after all. A cult following does not define a good speaker. I used Bose as an example of that since their customer base is much larger, and probably as loyal, as Jim's. Bose's fan base proves that you don't have to make great sounding speakers if you have adequate marketing prowess. Salk's following proves that a good product will garner a long list of customers. |
You are correct..I just spoke to Jim Salk and he is using the 70-20 ribbon with a modified core. My eyes tricked me. Regarding Bose..are you kidding me? Bose speakers are not high end. Make good radios. Amar Bose filed a lawsuit in 1968 in a New York court against High Fidelity Magazine for a very bad review of the original 901 speaker which was a piece of crap. No copper voice coil over a coil form. Just a long hollow aluminum tube connected to each driver that acted as a capacitor for the driver. Now thats cheap!! Bose is not, and never has been a high end speaker in the Audiophile world. Not unless your stupid and gullible. Bose is for housewives. And your not aware of the major performance differences switching out fuses in amps and preamps? That is common knowledge among Audiophiles for years. |
Beyond Salk's capabilities? Baloney!! Jim Salk is a recording engineer and Dennis Murphy is an electrical engineer designer of crossover networks for many years. Salk speakers are also transmission line designs fine tuned to exact mathematical standards by long time transmission line experts Paul Kittinger and Martin King. Paul is in partnership with another speaker company, Philharmonic Audio. You were saying?... |
Bose has an even bigger following than Salk. What's your point? Fuses? Please! What tiny shred of credibility you may have had just "blew." And Salk uses the 70-20XR OEM tweeter, not the 70-10D. Don't get me wrong here. I was present at one of Jim's first public appearances with his first 2-way at an event in Iowa. Gorgeous looks and sound. His stuff can run with most anything out there. There's no doubt that Jim offers a great value for the audiophile. And his finishes are really top notch. |
Glassy?...Murky?...boy, theres nothing worse than a murky speaker. Just goes to show that Audio Shows are not the proper venue to listen to speakers due to set up challenges and poor room acoustics. I listened to the Salk HT2-TL with a Parasound Halo JC2 Preamp and the Halo A21 amp in January at a friends home. He bought the system in early December. He switched out the fuses in the amp with HiFi Tuning fuses. Sound is mind blowing. Also, the ongoing wave of dozens of Salk owners on Audiogon in all the threads are the happiest speaker owners you will ever come across, as well as many owners on other blogs and threads on the net all over the country. Salk has a cult following that is huge. Word of mouth is the most honest and accurate method to judge audio gear. Also, the RAAL 70-10 tweeter in the Salk costs $389.00. Thats nothing to sneeze at. |
Whether he's a shill or not, I don't know, but I have never heard any Salk speakers so can't comment on them, PMC is another matter. I have owned three pairs, and bought all either used or at "sale" prices and think they sound fantastic. I have auditioned several other brands that have a great reputation that might have better so called drivers/crossovers that I didn't like nearly as well. So, I guess at the end of the day, it's all about what sounds good to your ears, marketing and opinions not withstanding. |
The bottom line..when you buy a PMC your buying a Ford Focus with a nice paint job. Again, anyone who spends $14K on the PMC PB1i with a 40 pound wood cabinet, four low priced drivers and one crossover board with low priced parts should get a lobotomy. When you buy a Salk, your buying a Rolls Royce for the price of a Chevy. Salk gives you the option to customize the crossover network to your liking by upgrading the capacitors. Certain caps in crossovers can produce a warm, laid back speaker or a very neutral, forward sounding speaker, so you can contour the type of sound that fits your personal preference. Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy will consult with you and recommend the caps that fit your tastes. Thats as good as it gets. Their house crossovers are still damn good producing outstanding sound quality but you get the upgrade option to take it to the very limit. |