ok im opening pandoras box here.(treatment vs framed wall art)


So i am in a dedicated 2:1 room and am treating it for sound ,it is very bright. Although I enjoy having a selection of framed pictures on my wall they vibrate and ring.I see so many unreal setups in the forum with a ton of pics on the walls. How are you mellowing the room down with 15 glass framed pics on your wall? .I realize its a battle between form and function but ...
Thanks 
Convert?fit=crop&h=128&rotate=exif&w=128oleschool
Glass is very bad it will kill your sound.

oleschool:

My listening room - living room has glass windows behind the speakers and along one long wall. So it is a challenge to improve using the old standard acoustic treatment technology. 

I now have a fabulous listening environment using the Synergistic Research room treatment products. They have bullet sized transducers of three varieties that allow you to tune a room. HFT, HFT-2.0, and HRT-X.
These are small and not visually distracting.

I think the Synergistic Research products due the best job of treating rooms. If possible go to the Rocky Mountain Audio Show (Denver) in October to hear and talk to them. They also have good Face Book demonstrations and how to suggestions. 

They are sold with a 30 day return policy so well worth a try.

David Pritchard
Unfortunately glass will have to go. Notwithstanding the suggestion to add SR products these will only tame but not remove the effects of the highly acoustically reflective pictures (I have a full SR ART and HFT setup originally installed in my SoCa all glass modern house which you can see in my old system description)

 I experienced just this in my new room gradually eliminating each piece of artwork and hearing the improvement at each step. I still have a window but that is itself heavily treated. There's no comparison in how good the two rooms sound

luckily manufacturers of acoustic treatments have realized that not all of us want to look at plain cloth so are now making acoustic panels that double as art, for example ArtPanels from GIK acoustics are well priced and attractive. 
+1 for GIK Acoustics.

Also, sculpture can act as diffusors. :)

If possible, remove the glass or replace with museum quality plexiglass which maintains UV protection but is less rigid, and not as good a reflector. Also, use foam behind the frames to prevent rattling from the drywall.

Avoid reflectors most of all at 1st reflection points.  However, you can compensate for too much glass somewhat with lots of diffusors and dampening elsewhere. For instance, the ceiling is often overlooked. :) 

Best,

Erik
I completley agree with all the post i have been down this road before .. I was browsing the virtual tour here and i saw systems well over 75k with pics all over the walls .. And i thought to myself how the hell is that working out yannow ... I love some pics of my favorite bands on the wall but they ring , obviously i dont mind that as much in my ht room because its more oriented toward entertaining and family ( although it has waaay more low end ) but in my dedicated audio room it is challenging . It is my personal space ( man cave ) and its where i want a pic of Genesis or pink floyd etc and at 150.00 framed uv im thinking thats about the same as a decent panel . I had a killer room years ago treated very well . But sometimes staring aimlessly at a sound panel listening to music gets old . 
Well I do not think all the glass has to go. I am very happy with a Synergistic Research treated room with the latest HFT system (there are three different types of transducers that respond to different frequencies) in concert with the Synergistic Research FEQ ( which improves bass and decreases brightness).

 In addition what wall outlets are you using?  Perhaps a darkish outlet like the Oyaide R-1 is indicated . Another possible help would be SR Black fuses and Black wall outlets. Both products decrease high frequency noise and allow the system to have a more relaxed sound.

Also consider the Synergistic Research Atmosphere device which does allow one to tune the room to some degree. 

The SR Black fuse, Black A/C wall outlet, and Atmosphere unit all come with a 30 day trial.

My listening room is decorated exactly the way I want it. As I type and listen to some fabulous solo female vocal and lute music ( Shirley Rumsey on Naxos), I am enjoying looking at a painting of Saint Celia (patron saint of musicians) which was painted about 1650.

The acoustics are wonderful. The room's visuals are inspirational.

Getting it right took a lot of effort but was worth it.

David Pritchard
How a listening room looks will effect how the listener feels which can make that person either more or less receptive to good music.  If your pictures make you enjoy the music more, then keep them and just use a little common sense about their positioning.
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Sounds like an advertisement for SR Products. 
A big shout-out for Marigo VTS dots for windows and walls and for those teeny tiny little bowl acoustic resonators.
oleschool:

geoffkait is absolutely correct that the Marigo dots can be very effective in altering room acoustics. Like the SR HFT's they are small and not visually distracting. Enjoy The Music 2014 (in their tweeks archive) has an article treating a room with small squares of Dynamatt sound damping material (Amazon.com). This is covered in shiny aluminum and so may not work visually, but it does work and the glass in a room can be treated for $30.00.
Acoustic Revive makes a set of Quartz (quarter size) dots that also can be used to treat room acoustics.

Audio Magic makes a set of small bowl acoustic resonators and there is also a set of Zillplex small bowl Resonators for sale at Audio Asylum (seller is TBG on Audiogon).

Have you removed all the pictures and taken a listen? Then replace the pictures one at a time to see if there are a few critical locations that are disturbing the acoustics. You may not need to treat all the glass or some glass may need more treatment than others.

stevizzy:

No not an advertisement for Synergistic Research but rather an enthusiastic endorsement from a very satisfied customer and user.

David Pritchard
Cool i am interested , I don't want to say which systems I saw i don't think its respectful , but i can say my system and enviroment are getting on track ( new room only 6 mnths old ) I don't mind some treatment throughout my room .

      My original post was regarding some of the system pics on the gon . I see some mega system 6 figures and they  have there walls covered in glass framed pics . I was just perplexed over this because i have like 6  17"x24" pics and i know they vibrate i hear it . I just wonder how much the pics change things . For instance room 13'x18' x10' exposed rafters spkrs on long wall  etc etc . One wall has a slider with heavy fabric curtain wall behind me large window again very heavy curtain blind set up , open that blind up and its a different room . I would think using the sr on the pic itself would be interesting . Like i said my reason for asking again is i see 20 pics in a med room all that glass cannot be good or costly to chill out

      ..ps someone asked about power i have dedicated dual 20 amp  hospital grade recepticles to my system and run it completley off grid 😁 
While we’re on the subject of unconventional room treatments can I offer up the following for your consideration? Crystals for addressing sound pressure peaks in the room, DIY Helmholtz resonators using the Helmholtz formula to calculate the nozzle diameter and length and resonator volume for the frequency of interest, Shun Mook Mpingo disc, removing (resonating) objects in the room that interfere with the sound such as beer bottles, CD jewel cases, musical instruments, chest of drawers, that sort of thing. Here's a flashback: one or more medium-large size box filled with crumpled up newspapers in each corner of the room. A cheap man's tube trap?

g. k.
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right!

Speaking of opening Pandora’s box, while almost everyone and his brother would probably agree glass resonates and that glass windows and glass framed pictures and just ordinary drinking glasses in the room might not be a good idea sound quality wise, what isn’t well known is that the pictures themselves hurt the sound. Especially if the pictures are of people, birds of prey, predators such as lions or tigers or sharks, military aircraft, things of that nature; in other words, things that could easily represent a threat to the listener, consciously or subconsciously. Thus, if you remove all pictures, even ones you might deem innocuous, from the listening room and invite your friend over to listen to the system he will hear a marked improvement to the sound. This will be the case even if the pictures are NOT covered by glass. For best results pictures should be taken entirely outside the house since they can still affect the sound even if they’re in other rooms.

The pictures on your wall are vibrating in response and sympathy to your room's 3 primary resonate frequencies being excited or over pressurized 

Every room has 3 primary resonate frequencies based on the room's physical dimensions between the parallel walls for it's height .. width and length  

When excessive pressure builds up at these specific frequencies the wall or walls will vibrate shaking your pictures along with other items placed in your room such as a drinking glasses or pictures placed  on a table or  shelf

 Your room operates in two completely different states or conditions above and below the rooms transition point also known as the Schroder frequency 

Above your room's transition point the frequencies coming from your speakers act as RAYs or BEAMs of LIGHT and project from your speakers in a straight line until they come into contact with a solid object ... there they are reflected 

The frequencies above the transition point behave this way because their length peak to peak physically fits with in the room's dimensions 

Frequencies below the room's transition point are to long peak to peak and WILL NOT physically fit within the rooms dimension so instead of behaving like RAYS they pressurize the room instead of bouncing around it  

Lets say for sake of argument that your room was 7x12x18 ... your room's 3 primary resonate frequencies would be 80hz x 47hz x 31hz based on those dimensions ... anytime your system generated one of these frequencies or notes it would excite the corresponding wall based on the room's dimension and primary resonate frequency point

You have two issues to deal with ... the vibrating pictures can be reduced by employing a 3 channel parametric EQ ... here you would first identify the primary resonate room frequencies and reduce the excessive pressure build up by placing a cut at that frequency ... this would reduce the energy at that frequency and reduce wall vibrations and lessen the picture rattling 

The brightness could be caused by a number of things including your equipment make up ... but if you move the pictures out of the first reflection point of the speakers ... you may be able to reduce some of the brightness 

Don't forget in addition to the side wall first reflection points (which most are aware of ) you also have first reflection points at the back wall .. front wall and ceiling and floor 

As I doubt you have any pictures placed or hanging on the ceiling or floor I would look to relocate the pictures on the side wall back wall and front wall from the speaker's first reflection point 

The problem is a bit more complicated and not quite as clean and clear cut as I've presented it ... there is a ZONE of TRANSITION that is between the  Schroder Frequency where the frequencies begin to transition between being RAYs to PRESSURIZING the room that is very tricky Zone to deal with ... also Echo Slap parallel to speakers and seating position between the two parallel side walls and also front and back walls should not have pictures placed at that point

Understanding how and why your room behaves is the first step in trying to correct the problems cause d by it

       

Enter your text ...
davehrab
337 posts
07-24-2016 12:11pm
"The pictures on your wall are vibrating in response and sympathy to your room's 3 primary resonate frequencies being excited or over pressurized

Every room has 3 primary resonate frequencies based on the room's physical dimensions between the parallel walls for it's height .. width and length....etc., etc.,"

the vibration theory of the pictures can be easily dispensed with by performing the experiment of removing the pictures from the room fir a headphone based system, you know, one that won't excite the pictures to vibrate. The other way to test the effects of pictures in the room is tape photos of the pictures to the wall. That way you can eliminate the pictures vibrating theory.

cheers

See if you have slap echo
chap your hands sharply and listen for tinny echo

I find corner treatment placements work best
Real Traps and GIK are great sources

back wall absorbtion

GIK does art panels with professional photographs via sites like photostock or your own higher rez image. I have 3 nice pieces

i also use stretched cloth / canvas artwork - works nice, just enough absorption. You can hang a lot of art with neutral sound influence
art.com has thousands of great works

too much sound treatment and your system can sound like mud.



All the best in your journey
Just remember that diffusion is just as important as absorption, sometimes even more so.
Buy Jim Smith's book "Get Better Sound"!
Thanks for all the input
     As i stated earlier i am getting my audio room under control (new house) .My Ht room is big and has alot of slap echo to deal with.Which is back burnered right now ,i'm living with it .But my original post was regarding some of the mega systems here on the gon virtual.I see some serious setups and wonder how the hell does he have 20 framed glass pics on his walls??? How is he/she   battling the resonation that has to be taking place .
To David Pritchard. Please clarify what a "transducer" is--and how do those items you mention transduce? Thanks.
"But my original post was regarding some of the mega systems here on the gon virtual.I see some serious setups and wonder how the hell does he have 20 framed glass pics on his walls??? How is he/she battling the resonation that has to be taking place."

good question. One would see the same situation in ALL rooms at CES and other audio shows. No one seems to address the potential resonance issue related to ranked glass pictures on the wall. Which actually begs the question, is having resonators on the wall a bad thing? I can image these unintentional resonators might actually be beneficial to the sound by dissipating unwanted energy that occurs when the walls vibrate. And a lot less expensive than those precious metal tiny bowl acoustic resonators. 

Geoff i hear ya . But what is the frequency they are vibrating at ? Above our hearing ? When my pics vibrate its the frame ratting on the wall itself so say under 100hz ? But the glass itself i would think is just ringing at a high frequency (causing brightness i would think  ) I am just guessing . I still would like someone with the means to try some sr or simalar on the glass itself  . There was a system here that had maybe 40 pics on the walls ??? Thats so much glass , mostly just curious ..
oleschool OP
172 posts
07-27-2016 12:11am
Geoff i hear ya . But what is the frequency they are vibrating at ? Above our hearing ? When my pics vibrate its the frame ratting on the wall itself so say under 100hz ? But the glass itself i would think is just ringing at a high frequency (causing brightness i would think ) I am just guessing . I still would like someone with the means to try some sr or simalar on the glass itself . There was a system here that had maybe 40 pics on the walls ??? Thats so much glass , mostly just curious.

Every object has it’s own resonant frequency. An object will resonant or ring (only) when excited by a mechanical or acoustic vibration of its resonant frequency. So, depending on the size and thickness of the glass, the the glass will ring when acoustic waves of the resonant frequency excite it - or vibrate along with the frame/picture. I also suspect the grip of the frame on the glass might damp the ringing. People sometimes assume tiny metal bowl acoustic resonators or ebony discs produce high frequency distortion (excess brightness) when they resonate but they actually don’t. That’s why I said it’s possible the glass in the frames is acting as an acoustic resonator but the pictures probably wouldn’t be located in the right places on the wall to provide the benefit since placement is key.

I have four framed glass enclosed water colors in the room and have no problem.  I have room treatments, panels, bass traps and tube traps in the room as well.  My system is full range down to about 25hz with the speakers and two subs.

When the speakers were spiked to the carpet over concrete floor I used to have a strong resonance at around 125-250hz that would vibrate the walls if played loud and with music that had a lot of content at that frequency.  Removing the spikes and replacing with Stillpoints eliminated that problem completely.  The Stillpoints do not puncture the carpet or pad.

I would suggest decoupling the speakers from the floor.  Townshend pods or podiums would be excellent if funds permit.  

Geoff,
    What your saying I believe is spot on ,but again wouldnt this type of set up (glass pics behind spkrs side walls etc ) greatly effect the sound in the room?
   rhlijazz,
  Thanks for the input, I would love to mess around with stillpoints under my adagios.But I must say it is a little above my means to drop 5 hundred each plus subs just for fun. They are spiked on carpet,I originally had them on the just there platforms .I added the spikes and my bass tightened up imo. 
oleschool OP
174 posts
07-28-2016 1:23am
Geoff,
What your saying I believe is spot on ,but again wouldnt this type of set up (glass pics behind spkrs side walls etc ) greatly effect the sound in the room?

It seems to me it would be easy enough to find out by listening with and without the pics. Not sure the results are necessarily predictable, however.

Brightness is a condition that exists in a system when there is excessive treble energy relative to the rest of the audio spectrum ... it is an out of balanced condition that can be caused by either your equipment or generated from your room 

Digital components with high amounts of jitter can produce this bright condition ... RF sneaking into the signal path can cause brightness ... even uncontrolled vibration can raise treble energy  

Poorly designed components that don't produce adequate amounts of bass can also cause the treble to stick or stand out and present a bright or tipped up condition  

This bright condition can also be caused by your room when conditions cause extended modal ringing in the high frequencies ... here you have extra long RT60 times were the note just lingers more than it should  

The two most common perpetrators in the room are ... Echo Slap were the sound energy just keeps bouncing and lingering to long  between two parallel walls ...  and the wall/ceiling interface where the wall meets the ceiling ... here energy traveling up the wall combines with energy traveling along the ceiling in what is known as the laminar effect combine at the wall ceiling interface and are reflected back into the room ... unfortunately the combined energy that is reflected back into the room has much more energy than the original note  and causes the note to linger or ring well beyond it's normal or natural decay time  

If there is any problems created by your glass framed pictures it's a would be caused if your pictures are hung at the point where the direct wave above the room's transition point coming from the speaker strikes the side wall  

The reflection off the glass would be reflected at a different rate than if the wave struck the sheet rock wall ... now the problem is of different arrival times at the listening position of the direct wave from the speaker arriving ahead of the reflected wave off the wall ... the glass may reflect more energy than the sheetrock would have  

Your ear would perceive this as two separate notes because the same note arrives at different time intervals ... this would blur the imaging .. mask low level detail and effect the sound stage but I doubt very much that it would tip or increase treble energy 

As Geoff has suggested try removing the pictures and I'll bet your room still sounds bright as I think the brightness is being caused by some other condition  

One more point of interest is even if you remove the pictures from the room ... the room will still respond and vibrate in sympathy to it's primary resonate frequencies based on the rooms dimension  

The problem here is every primary note has harmonics and the harmonics from this low frequency distortion can easily reach up into the midrange and lower treble coloring both 

Success in audio will only come when you realize that the room and not you is in control ... so you need to take control of your room's anomaly  

Enter your text ...
I like it,....
      I guess the rooms I see here with all the glass pics are performing well .I was just curious how it was happening.I have 6 pics on my wall and treatment i have mellowd the slap echo with panels.the pics I double taped to the wall sound good to me ,
Thanks  
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If you have a room specially dedicated to sound, what you've got is a very, very big set of headphones.  And some like that.  

For me a sound system should live with the rest of the family and the rest of the home.  I do what I can in terms of room placement and such and then live with it.  Results are all that really counts and most who come to visit my home leave with envy.
Perhaps check out these: http://www.atsacoustics.com/pre-selected-art-acoustic-panels.html
Russ ,
      I am fortunate in having enough room in my house and a women who has no problem with it.I also have a nice 7-2 Ht room which is for the family.Honestly there is a stereo in almost evey room in my house.

Dsn
         I am using panels from gik. My problems are under control,again i started this thread because of seeing some of the sysmtems on the gon with walls covered in pics and wondered what they were or were not using to control the slap echo etc.
I sent a jpeg of a pic that a friend took to Acoustimac.  They made it into two 2x4' panels.  Very cool, and an original. 

Glass is way too bright. I prefer the short, thick, wave diminishing brushstrokes of French Impressionists. My Haitian paintings help, too, but Haiti is a poor country, and the painters conserve too much paint to really scramble the waveforms.

Tee Hee, but it is true.

 

danv,
 Thats what i always thought myself