According to Audiogon rules, yes, you are obliged to buy for 48 hours, the offer is declined, or counteroffer made when making an offer. Offline contact with the seller/buyer has no bearing on the official offer. Sort of like things said off the record and on the record.
You should have replied to his e-mail and ask him to decline the offer immediately if he refused it in the email. That's life in the Audiogon jungle.
I see this is very recent. Maybe there is still time for you to Message him to work out the sale.
I contacted the seller and he said he already sold it the next day.
It's been a long time since I bought on Audiogon, so I'm not current on its rules.
You mean you can't retract an offer before the seller accepts? What's the reason for this "good for 48 hours" offer? It certainly prevents the buyer from pursuing a competing item within that 48 hours.
You could try to use the dispute resolution system to get the neg. fdback removed. State your case, they'll also see how much pos. fdbk you have.
Dougmc, no, when you click on the "make an offer" button through Audiogon, you are committed to buy for 48 hours, or until the seller declines or makes a counteroffer. Whichever happens first. If you back out, you are charged a $19 fee from Audiogon, and obviously, open to negative feedback.
As to Audiogon's reasoning for their rules, you would have to check with them. Yes, it does tie up the buyer. I think Audiogon wants to make sure buyers are committed to the purchase at the offer they are making an official offer. Trying to prevent buyers from just making official offers on a dozen objects, and just picking out what they really want later. Only Audiogon knows for sure.
If the Seller refused your offer through the Audiogon messaging system, then later accepted your offer through the Audiogon Offer button you should send Audiogon an e-mail with all of this information, and ask them to refund the $19 and remove the negative feedback. I don't think the Seller should get two bites at the apple. They can't refuse, then accept.
Did you save that message the seller sent you refusing the offer?
If so, I would think that should be enough to have Audiogon have the negative
feedback removed. After all, he did not accept your offer and you're right to
Looks like your negative has been changed to a neutral.
What a joke A-gon has become. And that loser,cry baby
seller! What happened to FREE enterprise? I mean can't two
people negotiate without big brother standing over us and
watching every move? No wonder I've been gone a while.
IMHO AudiogoN got this wrong. If the seller failed to use the proper AudiogoN system procedure for declining your offer, the seller is at fault and you should not have been penalized.
Though there are two sides to this problem I can understand Veerapanenis position. It would seem that the seller, having sold his amp and knowing he declined the initial offer, should have not been vindictive. Sounds like a poor sport to me. I would contact AG and see what they can do.
I've had some success with A'gon customer support when I contact them via email. If seller contacted you outside A'gon system and you can document it, there should be no penalty to you AND of course, if he actually sold the amp he has no "damages". However, there are 2 sides to every story; if you file a disputed transaction report, both the community and A'gon would hear both sides.
You can find that message he sent you under either "Inbox" or "Email Delivery" on the Mypage Home screen here on AudiogoN.
I would forward it to AudiogoN and have them remove the neutral feedback.
You can also have the dispute decided here on the forums, (I think they still do that). All of us can weigh in on the issue and AudiogoN will change it, if you are found in the right...which I think you are, if we have all the info as posted?
NO. He refused, it's all done. If you want to bring it back to life, seller can accept if buyer is still interested.
Best to always ask the seller to move the transaction to eBay so you get more safety and security. Ebay works much better of buyers then sellers.
Wow, I see a lot of people don't understand how this Audiogon system works at all. I'm not saying that I agree with the system, but there is a BIG difference between refusing an offer and declining an offer.
Do some research, find out how the system works, then work the system. That is what the seller did.
As Swampwalker suggests, state your case with the documented messages and you'll at least get the neg. feedback removed.
Jmcgrogan2 has made a profound statement. This guy knows how to work the system; he's never going to get burned on a transaction.
When I read about this new rule last year I was disgusted. This decision by AgoN is very arbitrary and leaves the consumer at the mercy of someone who all s/he want is to probably unload something in a hurry. If this individual (seller) is not the understanding type you could be in for a rough ride. Instead of keeping a level playing field, AgoN has sided with the seller in this case. I have not agreed to the new rules as I refuse to give up my CC number. I still browse but I have not made any offers as I know AgoN is going to try to lock me in. It is a good thing we have a couple of options out there still.
Audiogon expects users to know the rules and John (Jmcgrogan2) is correct, the offer is in effect until the seller declines. My first thought was that the seller's email declining the sale, and subsequent failure to "officially" decline the offer, could have been an attempt to drive up the buyer's original offer. However, a search of the seller shows he has been around here for 15 years (since 2000) and has maintained all positive feedback. Also, the neutral (originally negative) feedback message alleges the buyer failed to respond to emails. Given the buyer also has/had all positive feedback going back 5 years, I would have to see the email communication on both sides to form an opinion. If the seller's email to buyer declining the sale does in fact exist, a pass would have seemed a reasonable outcome.
Sounds like your in a world of hurt!!
Lowrider57, I have been burned. You don't buy and sell on Audiogon for 15 years and NOT have a bad experience. The trick is to learn from your mistakes, and become an enlightened consumer.
Still nothing is totally safe, I got burned about a month ago. However, from previous learning experiences, I used the proper precautions, and recouped all of my investment. The seller was banned from Audiogon, but I still seem the scammers popping up with new monikers all the time.
Buyer beware, read and understand the rules of engagement. There are sharks in the waters, posing as buyers and sellers. That's all I'm saying.
Jmcgrogan2, i hope you realize that i was praising your statement and was referring to the seller.
Something i just realized is how vindictive the seller was to post feedback on a non-transaction, assuming the facts are correct.
you're out $19 and some trivial feedback but you dodged a bullet by not having to do business with a seller like that.
I have been very active on this site and you can see that from my feedback. I must say i don't understand the negative feedback given to the poster. The seller sent an mail saying he does not accept the offer. Sure, not on the Agon strict and painfully slow system, but still gave his intention in plain writing.
Goodness, simply show this email to Agon and remove the negative feedback. Common sense must play a role here.
Yes, we all must use the formal system to avoid this sort of thing, but here we have an obvious refusal of an offer, in writing, and common sense must prevail.
From what I see here from the OP, is that he received a refusal to his offer and didn't counter offer. The negotiations ended there. Any return to the "table of negotiation" would have been either a "if you still want to offer X, I accept?" And a required response of acceptance or refusal would have re-opened the negotiation. But the sellers original NO was the end for both parties unless the buyer responded. In any world "NO" is a complete sentence.
Audiogon needs to research and correct this, but in the meantime, we all can learn from this one. When your offer is refused, respond with a closing comment that your offer is off the table or the option of a "let me know if you change your mind".
Just my opinion of course.
Under the most basic elements of contract law, a rejection of an offer ends the matter right there.
If the terms of the Audiogon service clearly and unambiguously provide for a contrary result and there is proof that the buyer assented to the terms by a specific opt-in to the terms (and not just by using the site after the rule went into effect), then maybe the would-be seller has a leg to stand on.
Under the most basic elements of contract law, a rejection of an offer ends the matter right there.
While this is true, the seller did NOT decline the offer through official Audiogon channels. The buyer made an official offer through the Audiogon system. The seller PM'd the buyer rejecting his offer, off the record. He did not officially decline the offer through the Audiogon system though. That is how he was able to accept the offer. It's like he tried to strong arm a better deal, when the buyer balked, he accepted his original offer.
I assume in the legal world there is a big difference between working with official documents on the record, and working off the record, is there not?
Not sure about that john. A contract is a contract is a contract. Oral, written or otherwise. Now proving it is another matter. Audiogon Should get right on top of this, because this is clearly a "bug" in their system that undermines the formal more profitable for them system that they have tried to establish. One of the motivations to stay within that system is that it is supposed to provide at least some protectton to buyers and sellers from someone who is negotiating in bad faith. The ability to refuse an offer rather than decline it, while leaving the buyer on the hook will drive buyers away. Without buyers there will be no sales. Without sales no sales charge and eventually no sellers.
A rejection made in writing is a rejection. If it's in writing it's not "off the record". The written rejection of an offer ends the offeror's legal obligations, even if the seller did not hit the reject button. The offeror (buyer) is entitled to reasonably rely on the written communication by the seller rejecting the offer.
Based on the rules/policies that govern trading at this site, when a prospective buyer makes an offer to purchase an item, the seller can select one of three actions pertaining to that offer,
2. Decline, or
Selecting one of these three actions triggers a specific outcome. However, the actions must be selected by using the tabs shown on the listing page, as there are no provisions for actions to be triggered by sending a message to the prospective buyer. In the event the seller does not select an action, then the offer expires after 48 hours. In this case, if the seller did not specifically select the action to "decline" the offer then, based on the buy/sell rules of this site, the offer would have remained active for 48 hours, during which time the seller could have still accepted the offer. The message discussed by the OP is not an accepted mechanism to decline the offer, based on the posted site buy/sell rules.
I agree with most here that, assuming the OPs story is factual, then the seller displayed incredibly poor form. However, it may be good to remember we have not seen the message from the seller, or heard both sides. At a minimum, this situation is a good reminder of the importance of knowing the rules, which can be found by selecting "sell" at the bottom of the homepage. Unfortunately, you will need to follow a couple of additional links to see all of the information.
Again, there are 2 sides to this story. Provided the information we have to work with is factual, it seems an error was made by the buyer in not following the correct AG protocol, the seller proved to be not the sort we would wish to deal with (being kind here), and AG probably should assist the buyer and themselves by removing the feedback. I always communicate with buyers and sellers via AG such that a record is maintained there.
I have sent multiple emails to Agon and never received any reply back. I will send one more today. I don't care about $19 fees but neutral feedback erased by 100% positive feedback :(
Agreed Veerapaneni. I don't care how the buyer declined your offer; by phone and you have the recording, by text message, by email, by snail mail, by a fly over banner on a plane that you have a picture of, the BUYER DECLINED. In your case you have an email probably within the Agon system even!
Don't let this go and don't accept any neutral or negative feedback. I feel for you and hope you can remove the neutral feedback. It is just plain wrong and as plain as day.
Disecting Agon rules and contemplating the procedural navel of this matter has nothing to do with the common sense fact that the buyer declined the offer.
Addendum to my last post
And of course w/o sellers, no income for audiogon.