No need to over analyze this phenomenon with talk of neo-Marxism. What the OP describes is age-old tire-kicking and buyer's remorse. It's nothing new and pervades in audio transactions because audiophiles tend to suffer from neuroticism. Unfortunately, many of them also lack the back bone necessary to explain to a seller that they had a change of heart.
Why the truth is not in them ??
I wonder how many people have been told something by a buyer, that was no where near the truth....I hate to think how many times I have been told that I will send a Pay-Pal tomorrow, or I'll send you a check tonight....and never do anything of the kind.....I've been waiting for two weeks for a check from a guy in Michigan , I have sold a item 13 times on another web-site based on what a person has told me and never received the first penny..........Does anyone tell the truth anymore ?? I have one web-site that I do business on that has a 98% negative truth rate.....Isn't that a poor way to deal with people ?? What are your experience ??
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Democratic socialist countries like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, etc., report far higher levels of both trust in their own governments and in their own levels of personal happiness than capitalist Thunderdomes like the US (or the UK for that matter)-- and that is a long documented multi-sourced fact. BTW Marxism has nothing to due with Nazism-- again a well understood fact. Those that are making these kind of connections are, to be kind, poorly informed. Meanwhile, back here in the good old US, people report vastly lower levels of trust or happiness. Social and economic mobility is also far far higher in those and other more socialist countries (and no, sadly, Russia is not among that group, as they're not a socialist country). Any questions? |
While there’s been a few practical advice posts regarding the OP, there’s been much debate on the morality aspect. Although many valid points were made, I think the expectations are unrealistic and focus is wrong/unhealthy. Seller risk is a fact. My past retail experience at Sears Catalog exposed me to many customer abuses. Some tried to return abused/used items, even tried to cash in on non-Sears items and failed homemade rewired equipment. This is just a small typical example on what happens to sellers as a whole. So how long has this gaming by customers been going on? Answer: since mankind has started trading/bartering/buying/selling. Sellers/retailers know and accept this risk because like the sun rises and the sky is blue, this is just an unavoidable fact. What’s going on is that a few non- professional/low-experienced new sellers are unrealistically dismissing/ignoring this risk, then they’re surprised/disappointed when something negative happens to “them”. Mankind is imperfect is a fact. Mankind is driven by both selfish and social needs. Sometimes these needs are at odds with each other. It’s quite easy to criticize someone who acted against social norms for selfish reasons, logically arguing point by point. But a better question is how is this serving me and/or others? Is it making a difference? Taking a magnifying glass and bitching about another’s actions/shortcomings bears little/no fruit, and runs the risk of unrealistically coloring your world to the negative. Is it going to change the individual, society, or anything?- I’d say no. Would things change if I recruited people to my anger/pity party where we can bitch together?-Again I’d say no. Can habitual thinking about the shortcomings of people negative skew your perception vs reality? A Big Yes! Some people go they life habitually asking what’s wrong with x,y,z. Similarly some people habitually look for offense from others. These tinted lenses, often driven by some underlying fear, does indeed affect how the person interacts/communicates with others. Bottom line: it’s unwise to spend your limited time and emotions on a fruitless endeavor especially one that has the potential for negative lasting consequences. |
Times change and people have to adapt. Unfortunately criminals also adapt. 20 years ago I regularly used to see broken glass as car theft was common and car stereos were easily interchangeable. Nowadays, not so much. Car security has improved and stereos are no longer so easily interchangeable. The criminals have evolved and moved on to easier, possibly more fruitful pastures. Nowadays, in the age of the Coronavirus we might see an increase in online crime, in telephone scams and no doubt in fraudulent buyers and sellers. We know banks and financial institutions need to offset considerable sums to protect against fraud. The amounts written off annually are said to be easily in the millions. Buyers and sellers usually don’t have those kind of safety margins, so both need to beware, and both need to adapt in order to avoid getting hurt or maybe even survive. Things like PayPal and credit card protection are becoming increasingly necessary, but so is the need for extra vigilance. The sharing of such knowledge may well be our best defence. |
@clearthinker You don't know what you are writing about. Corrupt business practices were standard at the turn of the 1900s. Food manufacturing was very dangerous to consumers (I don't mean preserving food, I'm talking about knowingly producing food in unsanitary ways e.g. the pickle industry). If it weren't for presidential and congressional legislation, many people would be dying from contaminated food. That's just the tip of the iceberg of dishonest business practices. |
" millercarbon...that’s the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. " Funny, because I have thought for a while now that the greatest threat to the Great American Experiment would come from within. The Great American Experiment was founded upon the teachings and merits of Christianity, where standards were set by the founding fathers. I currently attend no church, however I do agree that without standards, expectations of conduct from ourselves as individuals we will as a society become more corrupt. I interacted in a course held by Landmark Forum, and one of the most striking things I learnt, and I’ll say it as I understand it; Our self esteem, our opinions of ourselves are based upon our integrity to our word. Integrity to the truths that are universal. ’We make others wrong so we can be right and you just love to be right, don’t you?’ I am no " student of sociology or political theory ", but from what I have read, that countries that have embraced Marxist ideals were in a situation where there was great disparity between the ruling class and working class, and corruption and tyranny were rife. I myself believe that if societies continue to raise children with no accountability or integrity of their words and actions, then the same society will produce leadership with the same degree of integrity that is expected of them. The current elected official for the United States is apparently not trusted, and it’s pretty evident. It may have been that he managed to get in to the position of authority (out of the millions of other members of his society), because his direct opponent was even less trusted! Corrupt societies open themselves up for change, funnily enough we do have history of mighty empires to consider. Including the War of Independence. |
Integrity and accountability are provided by natural logic, not religious baloney.I think that you are right... Religion can make human able to give a particular image of themselves about themselves.... This is one of the necessary workings of a collective culture.... But integrity and accountability, basic moral elementay consciousness, for example are more like mathematical activity: we reap what we sow.... It is impossible for a gardener to fool himself and others and speaking about the garden and not properly working the garden... A religious man can.... A mathematican cannot.... "Moral imagination" is more akin to mathematical experience or gardening experience than to religious experience... One of the reason is basic moral activity and moral imagination does not need any kind of collective recognition at all, because his own working is rewarding in itself, like mathematic and gardening.... |
Integrity and accountability are provided by natural logic, not religious baloney. @wolf_garcia, How do you explain that as the acceptance of religious baloney declines in our societies, integrity and personal accountability also declines? I would gladly accept a little religious baloney if it would take us back to the levels of personal integrity and accountability that I experienced in my youth (a long time ago). Please note that integrity and accountability are declining on both ends of the political spectrum. I am not pointing at one side or the other. |
How do you explain that as the acceptance of religious baloney declines in our societies, integrity and personal accountability also declinesWhy is it Scandinavian countries whose religious baloney started declining decades ago are some of the least corrupt ? Look no further than the Bible belt in the US for declining morality. |
So there's an imaginary world that used to have more integrity and accountability? Supposedly where and when was that? Also, "How do you explain that as the acceptance of religious baloney declines in our societies, integrity and personal accountability also declines?" Easy...that statement isn't actually true. |
Everything is in flux. Europe is changing fast under conditions of dissolving hegemony, and even Scandinavian countries are no longer exempt. Civilization needs a belief system, a set of morals and a code to live by. If religion no longer provides that, then what else is there? A slow inevitable stumbling return to war? Mistrust of aristocracy, politicians, the financial sector, and global elite corporations and their intentions is probably at an all time high. As is the world debt. https://www.usdebtclock.org/world-debt-clock.html Ditto the Doomsday Clock. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock Something needs to be done - and soon. But just what? |
So there's an imaginary world that used to have more integrity and accountability? Supposedly where and when was that?I'm not saying everyone who believes this agrees but most people I've encountered whose notion of that imaginary world looks like Father Knows Best meets Leave it to Beaver. It also helps that they don’t have guns. While that's true I was speaking of personal and institutional corruption( integrity and accountability) not violence. |
Science just discovered in this century that all that exist is consciousness.... All physical science concept, even biological one reduce to information fields.... Then a change in consciousness is collectively needed.... This is the greatest time to live and see for the last twelve thousand years approx.... Then what is this change in consciousness? Very simple, all that exist is included in a chain of feed back loops....Feed negative you will reap more negative, feed positive you will reap more positives... This is no more a gospel.... This is now pure science established fact... This is not wishful thinking, nor positive thinking that are partly illusory attitudes... This is only the basis of cosmic and ecological interdependancy...It is also the most basic evidence in moral imagination and thinking... |
So there’s an imaginary world that used to have more integrity and accountability? I can see that this will get ugly fast and we're getting well outside the realm of audio. So I will just say that I respect your opinions, even though I disagree, and leave it at that. |
Religion is useful in providing etiological myths and social regulation. But as it develops it tends to leave the rails. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Culture is a hard thing to define and an even harder thing to account for. But if you compare responses to mask-wearing in Europe vs. the US it's hard to deny that cultures with different sets of values exist. |
Religion is useful in providing etiological myths and social regulation.Religions are one modality of the human experience through what Cassirer called the "symbolic forms"... Science is only another " symbolic forms"... The totality of knowledge and of all human experience cannot even be reduced to these only 2 forms... Any civilization is embedded in the history of all human consciousness and is a unique expression and balance between all these symbolic forms... Symbolic forms are basically complex polarities reflecting the constitution and creation and the workings of man....Language is the focus center of the symbolic forms... The 2 most extreme polarities of the symbolic forms are the whirlwind center of language in his prosaic and poetic mode.... History of language is also history of consciousness.... Cassirer was also a disciple of Goethe....Goethe is one of the rare exemple of an accomplished scientist and poet at the same time.... A feat very rare in modern era....The depth of is thinking is so much that even today only few understand him truly.... :) The basic polarities in audio experience and reproduction of sound are "generic" electrical design, and "individualized" acoustical location and experience....My 3 embeddings experiments of the generic electronic design let me to think that this individualization of location and experience are the most basic element of audio, not electronical design "per se" only.... |
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Zeroing back to opening post, imagine you go to a market and one stall has a guy offering something you want for $100. You tell him how about $50? He says “sure, done deal”. you walk to the next stall do the same thing and the vendor goes berserk claiming you’re an idiot who doesn’t know how to read (the posted price). we are dealing in a marketplace where each seller has his own idea of how transactions go down and what his item is worth. Likewise each buyer. the greed factor makes sellers want to dump less than perfect equipment and not reveal what’s wrong. Same greed on buying side says “who cares if this thing MSRP was 10k in 1995, it’s value now is only what ONE individual is willing to fork over. Then add in another factor- when I made up my mind I wanted a particular speaker, I scoured adds all over the country for months and finally landed on a pair at 70% of retail 6 hours drive away. Week after I got them 4 more pair hit the market at half what I paid in better condition. these are all just examples of the complicating factors involved. Simple conversation between buyer and seller sorts things out until one person wants to get the better of the other person. early on in my business career I learned from a very successful man the golden rule (he who holds the gold makes the rules)of how to do business - if you are honest then make sure to keep the gold in your side and follow thru on what you committed. If you leave the gold in the other persons hand, then only blame yourself if you get cheated. This mostly applies to non face to face transactions where at a certain time one party is going to hold both the money and the product. As a buyer, YOU are responsible for inspection and evaluating the condition, nobody else. Never mind what the seller says. If you don’t make that effort, blame yourself. Buying something long distance? Ask a local repair shop near the seller to inspect the product for you, pay for it and get peace of mind. |
@glupson, "Science just discovered in this century that all that exist is consciousness..." Tell that to the guy who is having a heart attack. "Hey, buddy, it is all in your head." Yes, you can debate and philosophise all you want but there's no getting away from the fact that there is not a lot more 'real' than pain. When Bertrand Russell was once asked whether he had any great thoughts as he desperately swam to escape a sinking ship (flying boat) the 76 year old philosopher said he was thinking about getting to the shore. |
Enjoy you body and life then.... I will.... But consciousness is not something that you can soap in a bath.... Nor something coming from an electric current from a Mary Shelley novel... i suggest a very old experience when laying in your bed: Interrogate yourself, what am i ?.... That worked for well Plato and Buddah... « I am Groucho Marx because i think i am Groucho Marx» -Groucho Marx Perhaps a more convincing master than Groucho woul be interesting to meditate: Planck said in 1944, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent spirit (orig. geist). This spirit is the matrix of all matter." |
