Not in love with my system yet. Help!


I've upgraded my system quite a bit over the last couple of months and I received the components separately due to shipping delays. I got my Parasound Integrated first and all hooked up. It made quite an improvement. I received my B&W 606 S2's a week later. Happy but knew the arrival of the subwoofers I bought would really help make them shine. I received the first of 2 REL t7i subs and hooked it up as directed and the improvement in sound was astounding so I was ecstatic about the thought of getting the second which was a day later. That's where I ran into issues. I have a Denon receiver which handles the HT side of things. My mains are run through the integrated of course and the only source directly connected to the integrated is a Bluesound Node. I have been unable to integrate the subs for music only when I try with both. I can run Audysey and it did an amazing job for my HT but that doesn't do a thing for me as far as stereo. I have bought a UMIK1 and downloaded REW but know they aren't going to give me any way to correct anything. All of my interconnects are unbalanced (RCA) so not sure which unit I should get to help me along. I have looked into miniDSP but think it only has balanced in and outs. I'd like to keep cost as low as possible as wife is on warpath. What unit do I need to get? I get pretty lost in the forums sometimes sorting everything out so forgive me please for asking to shorten my time to get to my goal and going over things that have probably been addressed before. Much thanks!
dadork
So many people screwed over by falling for the HT marketing hoopla. Sorry. 2ch works just fine for movies. Less money. Better sound. Live and learn. 

Confusing story. One sub worked astounding, so what is the problem connecting two? If you can connect one you can connect two. L ch to one sub, R ch to the other, RCA splitter if you only have one sub out, or chain from one sub to the next, or add a Line Out Converter. None of these has to cost more than about ten bucks. Or what am I missing? What did you leave out?
@millercarbon I have both of them hooked up, that's not the issue. The problem is it sounded like magic when I had just the one and not so much with two. It is in the integration part of it and getting it set up properly that is giving me problems. I've experimented with placement, setting the crossovers and gain and have yet to capture the magic again. I'm thinking I need to work with room correction software to get things squared away but not sure what product.
@oldhvymec Looks interesting but I think I need to get something that plays nice with REW.
What would we do without MC trying to make everyone look and feel stupid? It's his form of payment for dolling out advice.  
run four subs thats were I went in ht and am headed in dedicated audio from two 
If one sub sounded astounding, why not leave it at that?
@thecarpathian Because for stereo purposes it's supposed to be fuller and more balanced with two. I may end up going back to one but I'd like to get the most out of what I have if it's possible and it is supposed to be possible.

I have to say, I'm with @thecarpathian.  I doesn't make sense.  But, if one sounds fantastic, call the people> Ask why it's so great with one & not 2.  Then send it back if, they can't make 2 sound like heaven squared.
How do you have the REL’s connected? 
This sounds like a polarity, phase or room issue.

Have you tried to take the sub that arrived last and position it in the same place of the first sub and connect it to the same cables as the first sub? This will rule out if it is a hardware issue with the second sub.

If after doing the above the second sub sounds like the first one, try keeping it in the same location and using the connections you were previously using for sub 2. This will rule out if it is a room issue or a cable/polarity/phase issue.


Try hooking the subs to the speaker terminal of your amp to sub speaker level input
did that way with my Vandy 2 and sub 
don't use the sub output 
REL’s are generally pretty easy to get dialed in. If you’re trying to do double duty with them, that is using them for both home theater and for 2 channel, that may be your problem. What you want out of a sub for HT is different than for music. Window rattling, chest thumping bass is fine for HT, for music you want them to disappear.
Post removed 
To whom should a present be returned if the person doesn’t want it?

To the person that gave the gift of course..

Do you understand havocman?

Enjoy being DUMB..... Being nice to folks always pays, never cost a cent...

Regards...
@havocman  Sorry to break it to you but MC has the corner on the market around here for calling people dumb.  Back off.
Man oh man you just can't stop can you?  Every chance you get you talk about one person... What is YOUR issue with MC... I mean do THEY (AG moderators) have to BOOT you before you quit.. I'm just wondering.. EVERY chance you get... Broken friggin record. 

Is there any chance you could stop? I'll ask nicely... Would you stop, and help folks instead of attacking MC every chance you get... New years Res....
Wow.. sub discussions are like oil threads. I agree with the above, if one works, two doesn’t... after ruling out a possible problem with sub 2, ditch it. If a problem with hardware replace it. For kicks, try stacking the two RELS. The “T’s” aren’t specifically designed for an array, but worth a shot. I run one S510, works just dandy in my space limits and room realities.
@dadork  - I think some of the folks that have replied don't understand your setup. I may be one of them! :~) 

Can you please explain how you have this hooked up? Based on your original post, I think I know what you are trying to do. Here's my understanding of what you have and what you've done.

You essentially have 2 systems in the room: an HT System and a 2-channel music system. The systems are combined in that you have L&R front pre-amp out connections from your HT receiver system into your 2-channel integrated amp and the L&R front speakers for your HT system are powered by the integrated amp by using the HT bypass on the integrated amp. Is this correct?

So, you added the first sub to the HT system via the LFE output from the HT receiver. Correct? You ran Audyssey and the HT system now sounds great with the one sub connected. Correct?

Where you are running into issues is with getting one, or both subs also working for 2-channel music playback from you integrated amp.

Please reply and let me (us) know and make any corrections to my description about how you have your system set up and what you are trying to accomplish. I may have a recommendation or two depending on your reply.

And if I completely misunderstood how you have things connected, my apologies....
miniDSP comes in balanced and single ended, and you can use the balanced version in either mode by wiring it correctly.
I have a pair of Rel subs and they sound fantastic. I would recommend that you reach out to Rel customer support and have them walk you through how to connect them to get what you want out of them. I found their customer support folks to be very helpful. Phone: 510-990-6005. 
According to Kevin Deal from Upscale you are supposed to hook Rel subs to the speaker output terminals of your amplifier.
This only uses the signal not the power from your amp. 
Check out Upscale Audio's YouTube page and search Rel Subs.
The video explains it in detail.
Good luck. Those subs kick arse!
@oldhvymec
I normally like your posts and don't like all the bad-mouthing that goes on here, but......
MC is the worst offender by a mile and brings it on himself.  He could easily turn it off and that would be great but.....meanwhile no-one should feel sorry for him.
Perhaps you will ask him nicely to try to be nice to people for just one week and see how it goes?  Please.
@dadork,
Ah, I understand. As impressive as one is, you're striving for even better, as two should potentially make it.

@havocman,
Wow. Way to make a negative initial impression.
Hello,
first make sure the second sub works ok but using it where your first sub was. Next you should hook up your surround receiver to the subs using the RCA out/s or add a splitter if needed. Next, your T7i came with speaking cables that hook directly to the amp speaker binding posts. Call parasound and ask which ends from the speaking to use. ( when you have a linear balanced amp you don’t hook up the black or negative wire) last but bot least look up sub crawl. The T7is are active forward firing with passive down firing. The bass waves travel far. Like 50 ft. You need to Google sub crawl to figure out the best positions for each of the subs. A teaspoon of sugar is good a pound is too sweet. Same with subs. If you can hear where they are turn down the level or the crossover or both. Topically they tell you the knobs start at the 10 o’clock possible. Two are better than one once you adjust/ position them correctly. 
I’ve got a Ti9 hooked up using REL’s proprietary cable which taps off the speaker terminals on the amp.  Designed to integrate into a  2 channel system more evenly / musically.  The subs can also be hooked up at the same time for HT via LFE / to the AVR receiver.  
OP - best advice I have seen is cal REL, they are very helpful.  If 2 channel listening is your main goal, at first anyway, use REL’s proprietary system to hook the subs up, you’ll do that off the Parasound Integrated.  Get them both working, experiment with placement and settings.  The TI series will work with HT but it’s claim to fame is 2 channel and their unique hook up / integration with the amp / speakers.  You’ll find many posts / reviews where adding a second REL sub to 2 channel listening has taken a great set up to the next level, I’m sure REL can help get you there.  Make sure to take advantage of their recommendations, again, these subs are designed specifically for 2 channel and their reputation is built on seemless integration, following their set up guidelines is key.  I find mine is fantastic for music / 2 channel and forgettable in my HT, if I can’t have my cake and eat it to I want it rocking in my 2 channel. 
@havocman Thank you for your constructive criticism. I will take your observation under serious consideration. Cue eye roll.

@thecarpathian Yes!

@reubent Correct in every aspect except for one. I initially hooked up the REL as directed with the Speakon- Neutrik cable and got it dialed in pretty easily. I did not run Audysey in order to achieve this as one has nothing to do with the other according to REL. They are designed for this type of application. After I got it set up for 2 channel I didn't run Audysey right away because I knew I was receiving the 2nd sub the next day. Hooked it up as directed. I've tried a few different spots for it and even moved the 1st one to get me where I need to go. I wasn't really satisfied with the sound but went ahead and hooked up the RCA's to the Low Level inputs from the sub outs on the integrated. Audysey wouldn't recognize the 2nd sub so I went directly to the Denon sub outs which corrected that issue. After running it the sound for HT was pretty spectacular but of course that doesn't do anything for 2 channel as the Denon is cut out of the equation. If I'm understanding what Audysey does it corrects for room (nodes?) and delivers the low frequencies in the proper manner to my listening position. If this is correct it tells me positioning of the subs is the biggest issue. Now, if I can manage to get these subs dialed in properly for 2 channel I should be able to run Audysey again and have it correct for when in HT.

@p05129 The only way they would be running at the same time is if I had a source running from the Denon at the same time I was listening to music. They don't recommend you do that of course.

@crn3371 These RELs are designed to do just that. When they are integrated properly they will provide all of the explosions and bullets whizzing by your head when in HT but disappear (blend) with your mains when in 2 channel. 

@cwory I have been in touch with them and they are helpful but all they can do is verify I have everything connected properly and suggest I experiment with positioning, crossovers and gain.

As far as millercarbon goes I can take the good and the bad isn't too bad. If you haven't read through the comments of his virtual system you might be more dismissive of him than you should be. I will continue to try to learn from everyone including him.
@hshifi I did the sub crawl yesterday and am thinking I will employ that positioning as soon as wifey clears out all the Christmas decor. One issue I realized with at least one sub is I am at least 20' away where I found a good spot with good resonance. I will either need to get a longer RCA or leave it disconnected on one which mean only one sub will be doing double duty.

@mm1tt7 I am in the same frame of mind. It is more important to me to get 2 channel correct but both should be doable.

@erik_squires Thanks much! I wasn't aware of that and I think this is going to be a big part of the solution. I know they have several products so is this the one you would recommend?
Speaker level connection for REL subwoofers isn’t set in stone. My 2 channel system is powered by an Anthem STR integrated amp. I have my 2 T5’s hooked up to the subwoofer outputs on the amp so that I can take advantage of room correction. You also wouldn’t want to use the Speakon connection in a home theater situation as you want to be able to take advantage of the LFE channel(s). 
@dadork 

If the goal is to have the best possible 2-channel sound (first), then only focus on the 2-channel rig to start. Per REL, their recommendation is to use the Neutrik connection and dial in the subs. Once you've done this, ALSO connect the .1 LFE connection and run your HT receivers setup routine (Audyssey?). Audyssey should now detect that you have a sub connected to the LFE output(s). It should also detect/set the main L&R front speaker as "large" singe they have a high-level sub connected to them to provide bottom end. If needed, set the front L&R speakers as "large" if you have the subs connected via the Neutik cable.

Does your HT receiver have just one, or two .1 LFE sub outputs?
If you are sure you will never use balanced, then you want this one, as it has the highest resolution:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd


@crn3371 I was speaking with customer service at REL yesterday and they said you do want your Speakons connected at the same time while in HT because it will continue to enhance the main speakers musicality and fullness while in HT as well as the RCA for .1 LFE. I asked them to clarify what they meant by not using both at the same time and they said you wouldn't want to have two sources of courses going at once.

@reubent Both the receiver and the integrated have 2 sub out connections. I was running RCAs from receiver to integrated then integrated to sub but it didn't recognize two so I went directly to receiver and it worked well. Thanks for the info on speaker settings in the receiver as far as large and small. I have the crossover setting at 60 for the mains.

Thanks once again @erik_squires ! This will be my birthday present to myself.
You lost me.  Are you saying your Parasound Integrated amp can handle both 2 channel stereo as well as home theater.  I apologize for not having the kind of knowledge this group has.  
 He could easily turn it off and that would be great but.....meanwhile no-one should feel sorry for him.
Perhaps you will ask him nicely to try to be nice to people for just one week and see how it goes? Please.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Look it's easy.. MC, you got your ears on? Listen, could you be a little nicer to folks. You know, go out of your way NOT to be a fudge bucket.

In KIND, is not a fix all for everything... I'd have MC in a fox hole with me. 
I never met the man... OK maybe 45 years ago...:-) Count the ammo, and keep praying... I think a lot of our petty differences would get straighten right out... BIG OL SMILE... What you want to bet ???

How do you START or STOP a war without MECHANICS?  

You CAN'T...

NOW do you see how easy it is... He probably WON'T respond in KIND for a couple of weeks... He'll just post like he usually does.. WATCH and see. NO magic.... Just being a friend.. 

THE BIGGER question is, can some of the others do the same?
I know they can.  I want their input, not output, if you get my drift.
I know there are some sharp cookies out there...THAT is what I want...
I know, want with one hand, and shi$ in the other...

Being a gentleman, is hard... I try ALL the time.. sometimes I actually do it.. My FIL would be proud... One of the greatest people that  ever lived...

Happy new year, to ALL. 

With great respect, and much regard... Scotty, YES that is my name...
Just like on the Enterprise..
@larry5729 No, the integrated has nothing to do with the HT side of things but I must run my receiver through it for my mains to get signal as they are still deployed while watching the tube or movies. The integrated has HT bypass which is confusing to me because that's what you are in while using HT. The remaining inputs for the Parasound integrated are for when in 2 channel and nothing is coming from the receiver at all. 

@oldhvymec1 Love your point of view and this was well said. I gather from your handle you were maybe in mechanized infantry? Happy New Year right back at you. I have my doubts but hoping 2021 will be better than this has been.
@dadork and oldhvymec

I felt like giving MC every benefit of the doubt until he posted the insult below about Almarg's system, even including a link to Al's virtual system to drive home the insult. For reference, I always thought/think of Al as the nicest, most helpful and knowledgeable person ever on A'gon.

millercarbon OP7,126 posts07-04-2020 10:11pm
The “genius” who lists “stock cables” on his profile Audiogon Systems. That says it all.

No way.
Yes way! https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3676                  Not only freebie rubber power cords, but lamp cord to the speakers. Nothing to do now but apologize. Sorry, almarg. I had no idea. Sorry.

A portion of Al's response is as follows:
Subsequent responses insulting my system constitute "argumentum ad hominem." As stated in that Wikipedia writeup:

From my viewpoint MC feels free to spew his waste output on anybody at will, as evidenced by many of his 7,100 posts in two years. But he did teach me one thing, I didn't know Albert Einstein was an X-ray technician, no wonder he is so famous. I would feel no greater honor for 2021 than to be placed as number 19 on the hateful 18 list.
From my viewpoint MC feels free to spew his waste output on anybody at will, as evidenced by many of his 7,100 posts in two years. But he did teach me one thing, I didn’t know Albert Einstein was an X-ray technician, no wonder he is so famous. I would feel no greater honor for 2021 than to be placed as number 19 on the hateful 18 list.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

LOL I’m still laughing. With a base of 18, 19 is hard to get to...You did something quit extraordinary.. LOL I’m about to piss myself..

I guess I have the unique ability to read past the SHI$. Oh man..

I have just worked around all kinds of folks, MC just seems like a normal Joe to me.. He dose have his moments though.. The "Chile cook off" was pretty good too.. LOL

I have a short memory.... for the most part... Unless it’s malicious, I mean with INTENT. It’s just a lack of empathy.. BUT I assure you it’s all BS.

Here you go, I was scared to DEATH. I had to have an injection into my thyroid, and stents put in my heart. I wasn’t the mechanic all of the sudden.. I was dying.. I’d had 15 heart attacks and if they couldn’t get my thyroid calmed down, HUGE SURGERY...

MC cool as a cucumber, said. "Don’t worry buddy, your gonna be alright".

I didn’t know him from ADAM.. Yea he says CRAP.. Forget about it..

Almarg would not have carried a grudge.. NOR DOSE HE.

The spirit of Almarg is the spirit of Audiofiling...Ay? Share, have no regrets..

89 days in a 4’ x 4’ cage. Your not gonna teach me much about myself, I don’t already know... Cockroaches and rice are good... So are a lot of people... Never met a person I didn’t like... To one degree or another..
Somebody had to give me that bowl of rice, cockroaches, in all. I prayed every day, he'd come back, and he did, cockroaches in al... There is good EVEN in BAD... Pepper helps too..

Happy new year..
@dadork 

I don't have your exact setup, but I have had combo HT/2-channel systems set up in the past. I used an HT receiver for video switching, HT source processing, etc., and had my surround and center speakers powered by the HT receiver. This was connected to my 2-channel system via L&R pre-outs, into my integrated amp, which powered the front L&R speakers via an HT bypass on the integrated amp. Sound like exactly what you have.

Just remember, your 2-channel rig is completely independent of your HT system. The HT system does not even need to be turned on to enjoy 2-channel music played via your BlueSound Node 2 (or any other source connected directly yo your integrated amp). Get the 2-channel sound/config optimized first if 2-channel sound quality is a priority.

Once you have the 2-channel rig optimized, all you need to do is connect the 2 LFE pre-outs from the HT receiver into the each of the two Subs. Per REL, you can have LFE and either the lower level RCA input, or the Neutrik connection working at the same time. After you have everything connected, run the receiver's setup routine. It will know that you have the subs connected via the LFE ports. And it should see your L&R mains as "large" since they have the subs connected to fill in the bottom end, essentially making them "large" full range speakers. And if necessary, set the L&R speakers to large in your setup.

Lastly, remember, if you have the subs connected to the integrated amp per the Neutrik connections, as per RELS recommendation you should have good full range sound when playing only 2-channel audio (independent of the HT receiver). And when playing HT, you should have full range sound from the front L&R speakers (same as when playing 2-channel only) and you should also get the LFE effects coded to go to the LFE output of the HT receiver via it's digital audio processing.

It should all work just fine, after you get it set up correctly.
Not sure if you have the input you need.  If you want feel free to PM me.
First, please be specific about what love you are not feeling.   Is it too much bass? Too little?  Bad integration? What?  Dont leave us guessing (wrong)
Sub woofers have many complications, from phase alignment with the sats, to level setting and crossover point selection, to phase consistency BETWEEN them with two.  

In many ways two ought to be easier if they are co-located with the sats reducing the phase issue. One creates problems since it can be coherent at ONE location... because.... math.
Aside from the subjective input, have you characterized the system?
Anyway, LMK. I wont wade in unless you reach out.
HNY,
G

@reubent My set up is exactly as you describe and in talking to REL and their literature that is all exactly as you describe as well. I think my issue has to be placement. If the subs sound fantastic in HT after I run Audyssey and they have been room corrected but not in 2 channel without correction it tells me the low freqs aren't arriving at my listening position at the optimal wave point. Does this make sense? I know 2 chan and HT aspect of it are independent of each other so it should be, as you said, that once I have the 2 chan right I can then hook up the RCAs and run Audyssey and be good to go. How difficult was it for you to get the crossover and gain levels dialed in? It's hard for me because I have to move something and run back and forth to my listening position. Thanks for all your help!
@dadork  - I did not have any issues when I set up a couple of different combo HT/2-channel systems years ago. I used an HT receiver and an integrated amp, in combo, just as you are trying to do. However, I was only using one sub, different model sub, and different room, of course.

My only suggestion is to forget completely about the HT side, until you have the subs sounding the way you want for 2-channel listening from your integrated amp. Once everything is good for 2-channel listening, move on the adding the .1LFE for HT, and then run your setup again.

For the 2-channel setup, you only have sub volume, crossover point, phase and location. I'm not an expert on sub placement or setup, so you might want to eliminate some confusion and start a new thread asking how to find the best setup for 2 subs in a 2-channel audio system. Don't mention anything about the added HT portion, as it will likely confuse some/many potential posters and send the thread down a rat-hole.

Again, once you have the 2-channel music system to your liking, you should just be able to run the setup routine on your HT receiver and all should be good.

Good Luck and Happy New Year.
If you are going the miniDSP route, why not get their DDRC-24 instead. It has Dirac room correction and can handle 2 subwoofers integration.
Post removed 
Hello,
I say just get a female to female adapter and add another rca run. Placement is very important. You can extend the speakon cable since it is just a signal. Just so you understand I put one sub on each side of the left and rt speaker to add or enhance the sound of my music. I then just added the RCA from the home theater amp.  You can get another sub just for home theater like I did. Like a Hsu. Get ported so you can really shake the room if that’s your thing. 
Thank you @millicurie999 , I will be researching this product. All of this is very new to me and very daunting!

I think I've finally got this to where it's listenable at least and no that with a few minor tweaks I can get it pretty close until I'm able to invest in room correction and room treatment.

Thank you much everyone for your help on this and I have learned quite a bit!
Guys in the comments say, "Mini DSP, 149.xx RCA only. 4 in, 8 out". I don't get why You need to choose a RCA-only connector. That's odd, because you can buy a splitter at 1.09$ which is 10-15% cheaper than RCA only. I did the same when I installed employee monitoring software on my Citrix server
Post removed