My current speakers are the Wilson audio Sasha 2s. They are growing on me. The only thing I can’t get to sound how I’d like is the bass. It sounds maybe a tad too “out of phase” or not how I am used to hearing it. The tweeter is about 4 feet away from the the back wall so they have plenty of room behind them.
That said, my next experiment will probably be the simaudio 650a in mono mode. I just need to find a second one to try this. I will say that a few people told me that my hegels are way better than the Brystons 28b3. I was told the Brystons won’t come close to the h30s in Monos. Who knows ?
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I've heard the Momentums a number of times and if I recall correctly mostly with the matching Dag Preamp. This to me is a very good setup for sure. I've also heard them with ARC Ref6 and very good as well with Wilson
Audio Alexia II with giant REL subs (mostly sounded good but not always, I’m not sure that the system needed a sub at all). Also heard the Momentums with pre from the same line on Sabrina's with Bricasti M1 DAC and it very very good too. I do like D'Agostino gear a lot but it is priced with the upper end gear. It has a very seductive and refined sound.
@whitecamaross
Is the Black system still powering the Wilson's? Has it got any better or still not as good as the ARC/Hegel combo? |
“Picking up the new Parasound JC5 this weekend. Should be interesting. Sold the JC1’s last month. Got a little more space now. Finally
they have the connects improved”
I will be interested to hear what you think! The JC5 looks like a Great amp.
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How much have you tested one Hegel H30 versus two? I've read a post that says one is better and the TAS review claims that one sounded better than two as well. |
@bill_k
I've never heard them together on the same systems, but I do live with the 655se's baby brother the VK-6200. It is 10 year older technology the 655se but still absolutely sublime. Detailed, neutral warm, airy highs, liquid mids and very dynamic. The sound-stage it throws is huge, and it has absolute control of the bass in both my 2 channel and 5.1 setup. |
I have tested one Hegel versus 2 in mono mode only twice and I didn’t need to do it again. With my Wilson speakers, the difference was MASSIVE. A deaf person could have heard it.
Yes I also read that review and I still tried it myself and I can tell you that Wilson audio sounded far better with 1200 watts than with 300. It was impressive and effortless at all frequencies.
Lastly, I don’t trust those punk @ss reviewers. Heck, my current set up is much better than the set up he was running. His preamp was nowhere close as good as my ref10. I don’t believe everything I read.
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Whitecamaross--since you tested two Hegels would you reconsider testing two Luxman amps? |
@whitecamaross
It’s amazing what great current delivery does with a great set of speakers isn’t it? Speakers only really sing and sound their best when they get ALL the current they need. 👍
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I’d like to try the luxmans for sure but I don’t see that happening. Luxman amps sell for far more than my hegels and I don’t think I want to spend north of 20k to experiment with that. I’d like to stay at under 14k used market price When it comes to amps. Pass labs 600.8, bryston 28b3, simaudio 860 Monos are all choices that fall within that price.
As far as what that reviewer said about Hegel monos not being as good as the stereo version, I believe he must have had speakers that are over 95db efficient. That’s the only way I can see why a stereo Hegel should suffice. I’m telling you, Wilson audio Sasha’s truely came from the dead when I strapped on my hegels in mono. Even low level detail came forward and put dead center. I thought well maybe I need to put back a single Hegel and listen again and as soon as I did that, the soundstage collapses and gets narrower.
Actually, I don’t even think a pair of simaudios or pass labs 600.8s would best these hegels. However, i can only find out by trying. I don’t think there’s any other amps that put out 1200 watts into 8ohms and 2k into 4ohms while staying at 14k used market value. I’ve been looking and don’t seem to find them. |
Hi mr bill,
I just bought a new parasound JC 2 BP already have the halo a21 amp and added a new pair of harbeth P3ESR speakers with custom stands. I also plan on getting the JC 5 after i burn everything in n see what i get, i would really appreciate ur input on matching powercords ..IC and speaker cable for the Parasound equipment.
Enjoy your new amp n be well...h
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It is an unusual speaker/amp match you have arrived at. The Sasha 2 has a 2 ohm minimum at 90hz. Hegel only quotes power into 8 ohms and the H30 mono is a bridged stereo amp. Typically a bridged amp is not the best choice driving very low impedance speakers and especially ones which present a 2 ohm load where there is a lot of energy which is what you have. It’s possible you are hearing a euphonic distortion from this combination. I do note that there are many reports of Sasha’s sounding excellent with tube amps sourced from their 8 ohm taps so there may be a similarity with the Hegel. |
All I can tell you is that specs quite often s just exactly that... specs. You don’t really know how good something sounds until you bring it. Perfect example is the luxman 900u. Only 150 watts per channel and I don’t find it any less strong or powerful than a 350 watt per channel amplifier.
That said, remember the hegel h30 was made to serve as a mono amp first which can also work as stereo. If you go to the Hegel site you’ll see they give you the power ratings as a mono from the get go and then you have to dig in there to locate stereo ratings.
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@whitecamaross
"All I can tell you is that specs quite often (are) just exactly that... specs. You don’t really know how good something sounds until you bring it." This is so very true. |
You all take the crazy reviews from magazines like it’s the Bible. Read them and inform yourselves but don’t assume that because the reviewer said it’s no good that it will also be no good for you. Take reviews with a grain of salt and use them to understand a little about the product. I am about to start charging you all for the advice I give here.
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whitecamaross,
You all take the crazy reviews from magazines like it’s the Bible. Read them and inform yourselves but don’t assume that because the reviewer said it’s no good that it will also be no good for you. Take reviews with a grain of salt and use them to understand a little about the product.
Remember that this applies to you too. I'm not criticizing, I think this is true for what anyone says about audio gear. |
Tomcy, you’re right. However, there’s one HUGE difference. I don’t make a penny from any of this. Should I be charging you all ? May be I should review a component each month and then charge a subscription. Trust me, with all the money I’ve spent, I think i got a pretty good following now and I can get people to pay to read my reviews and by the time the magazines release their own review, they will be many months behind me.
Anyhow, I am pretty content with how my system sounds right now but of course I want to try the next great or bad thing. What will it be ? Bryston? Gryphon? Agostino? |
I would certainly include Constellation and Audionet. |
Are you thinking of starting your own website for reviews? |
+1 tomcy6 @whitecamaross I commend you on creating a very cool thread. But, I wouldn't pay money for the privilege to read it. I'm not meaning to offend; I'm simply stating my view on whether this thread could have an economic future. I doubt it, but it would be interesting to see you test the concept.
Peace
Al |
People do not appreciate free things. The mind is trained to think that anything you pay for has to be better than free stuff. If you gave your kids a Ferrari to drive to school and they crashed it and then you replace it, they don’t have a reason to take care of it.... it’s free. They didn’t work for it. Same applies to this. My value is indeed diminished because it’s free advice. If I were to take more of my time to write structured reviews with a beginning, a body and a conclusion, then I’m putting more effort to write something more coherent, with proofreading, with logic, etc. That takes time and effort and money. This is why I just put my thoughts down here as I go without being too concerned about perfect grammar or punctuation, etc.
I could totally elevate my reviews to have more meat and potatoes in them. I could add more cabling, try amps in 30 amp outlets, try subwoofers in a 2 channel environment, acoustic panels, different dacs, ribbon speakers vs panels, stillpoints, mono amps vs stereo amps, class d vs tubes. I could do a journey where I go after the best amp for bass control, best for mids and highs,etc
There’s so much more thought I can give this journey, but I’d need a return for more effort and time.
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Actually adults highly value free--kids don't and never have--it doesn't take a wrecked Ferrari analogy to prove that point. It simply takes raising kids. But "free" is the internet's foundation. Free shipping? Amazon Prime has 100 million subscribers built largely on free shipping. Nevertheless, you might have something that is highly economically valuable...we won't know unless you take a run at it. I know what it means to take risks; I admire those that do so.
Peace
Al |
First of all, thank you for a great thread and for all the efforts you have made! I can certainly say that it helped me somewhat with a decision. :)
I think you do not have an accurate view of how advertising works. Reading this thread is not that different from reading a magazine from a financial point of view. What generates money in both cases are ads. Every impression/page access generates money because of the ads, which is similar to how every new magazine subscriber/buyer increases the ability of the publisher to charge more for ads.
Your writing provides for you a readership and enjoyable communication with other people with the same passion. Thinking of how much I can talk with my wife about amplifiers, that has a lot of value. :)
Anyway, let’s stick to our amplifiers! Speaking of which, you should calibrate your SPL app on the iPhone; it is quite likely off by ~10db (it is important because you made unequivocal statements about the best amplifiers for certain settings that apply to ~99% of music listening). |
@whitecamaross
I agree with your free comment. Free services are not valued as much as if they pay for them, generally. What I appreciate about your thread is that, unlike magazine reviewers, you have no revenue bias. Manufacturers and dealers also have a revenue bias.
You also have no confirmation bias, i.e., you are not investigating to support a preconceived conclusion. The investment of ownership may cause a confirmation bias.
I also am not interested is subtle differences only apparent from months of listening. If the differences are that small, I view the products as substantially equivalent.
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What would impress me would be where you find that a lower priced product out performs a higher priced product.
Because you review high end products most should be good, that is to be expected. I seem to notice a trend though where in most cases the higher priced product always outperforms the lower priced product. It appears that everything you review is typically better than the last product reviewed (and many times is more expensive, not always). You are lucky to get to review such good stuff, so good reviews would be expected but just a trend noticed.
With the frequent changes in speakers and now location, I would also ask - have you gone back to any of the older products and re-reviewed them? I would find that interesting. |
Update:
just bought a wireworld starlight cat8 Ethernet. I used between my lumin and the router. Massive hum. I couldn’t seem to get rid of it. I tried it even using the black system as a source and the humming continued. The hegels weren’t having it.
I then went to just use it in the black system and connected the router to the black system using this cable and zero humming. This tells me that the hegels hated that cable because the simaudio didn’t give me any sort of hum when I replaced the hegels just to try. That said, I proceeded to just connect the hegels in the p20 rather than in the wall and problem solved. All hum is gone. With that said, I’m now playing music and I just started to hear background music that I didn’t know was there before. I don’t know what did it. Was it the Ethernet cable or the fact that I plugged in the amps into the p20? |
so i just proceeded to connect the simaudio 860a back in the system and the soundstage just collapsed. Lethargic, no muscle to it. It almost feels as if the hegels are a pair of blue nose pitbulls and the simaudio is a chihuahua lol. Terrible analogy for sure :) |
Not surprising. Simaudio products are overrated, regardless of price.
Also, theres no logical reason why a more expensive product should always sound better than a cheaper product. Afterall, resistors are resistors, caps are caps, diodes are diodes ....
For electronic products, the brand is the real reason for the high prices, not the material cost. |
@whitecamaross
Did you compare C1100 to any other Mcintosh tube preamps?
I agree for power SS that Pass Labs is equaled but never surpassed. The 350 is a musical beast. |
Simaudio amps are good. I can’t say anything bad about them. I need to try it in mono mode vs my hegels. Speaking of Hegel, I’ve spoken to 3 dealers today and they all told me that I won’t Best the hegels for under 13k. They said it’s impossible. I’d need to spend north of 15k to beat them.
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I agree with whitecamaross. Sim amps are very good, a little bit expensive ( don t forget they are entirely build in Canada) but very good. But with digital, Sim is not competitive anymore as it used to be in the early to mid 2000s. Wc, do you still have the Lux M-900u, and if so may I ask why do you keep it as you seem to be going the Hegel or Sim/Pass route. |
Tried the Bel Canto Black EX integrated versus the Hegel HD30 DAC and H30 amp today. Very close! Totally, the Bel Canto is a touch warmer. The Hegel combo probably has the slight edge in power and dynamics, but I felt the Bel Canto Black EX had slightly tighter bass. Really felt they both played in the same league, but different. With difficult to drive speakers, the Hegel combo probably has the advantage, but costs a little more too, plus additional cables. Sure, it's not the H30 as monos or the full Bel Canto Black system, but great pieces and an interesting afternoon. |
WC, do you still have the Salon 2s? Interested to hear your thoughts on the Hegels powering these, and if monos compared to single H30 have same improvement as experienced on the Sashas. |
M900u sold. That person has m900u in monoblock configuration. |
I don’t have the salons. They’re gonea. I suspect dual hegels will also massively improve their sound.
Guy, most of you don’t understand that The Hegel h30 is made primarily to be a monoblock. They just wanted to allow it to be a stereo amp so that the person eventually buys a second one. You all think for some reason that the Hegel h30 is a stereo amp made to work as a mono. It’s actually the other way. I am telling you, the Hegel h30 in mono mode is crazy. It makes me feel I have like I have a massive krell amp with 1,000 watts per channel. |
@whitecamaross
The reason you're hearing more now that you're connected to the P20 is the lowered noise floor. I have balanced power in my system and it's the same effect. Even my sub catches subtle details that help create a better sense of space in both music and movies.
Welcome to advanced power conditioning... 👍 |
@shadorne
Did you compare C1100 to any other Mcintosh tube preamps?
I have a C1100 and compared it to other McIntosh tube preamps. What information are you looking for?
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well guys, i am working on a deal on a pair of Bryston 28b3 monos. I am also working on another deal that i wasn’t contemplating, but i may have to slowly abandon the idea of keeping the black system. I may be (fingers crossed) stepping into a pair of monos that retail for north of 45k dollars.
Let’s see what will happen. I don’t want to talk too soon and then things fall through, but it would be my first time venturing with this brand.
I won’t say much else until i know the deal is done and they are headed my way :) |
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hi guys,
some of you have been asking me to bring some more affordable amplifiers to review. With that said, i am going to auditioning the 3k dollar offering from Adcom. i want to give a shout out to Larry from High End Palace for taking time out to come to my home today and making this happen. |
Excellent ! Hope you can find a amp in that price range that works for you . Really want you to get the Neoliths and review them ! |
It is the Adcom
GFA-585se , .. ?
When is the Pass Labs XA25 being delivered ? |
Although I suspect the Adcom will not compare favorably against the pair of Hegels, I am guessing the Adcom will be a killer at it's price. Adcom surely did it's homework, as well as studied the competition before releasing this series of amp. Just my opinion.
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hi guys,
i have a nice shootout here with Larry from High End Palace and i need to mention a couple of things:
1. the amplifier was dead cold with only about 10 hours of total use
2. My hegel h30s have been on for about 3 weeks non stop and so is my moon audio.
That said, the amplifier we used was a single gfa 585se.
We started by trying to tax the amplifier and trying to see if we could get it to clip or shut off and it never did. I think we probably listened at levels of close to 100 dbs and the amp was solid and composed.
Here are a few quick notes:
1. Excellent power with good slam
2. i heard great bottom end which reminded me ALOT OF THE HEGEL’s bottom end.
3. Good highs with good transparency
4. Soundstage was narrower than the hegel, but that is expected when you consider the price discrepancy.
The only cons i can recall were that of course the soundstage was not as huge as with my hegels . That is expected because the hegels have crazy amounts of power and current on demand. I will say that there were times that i felt like of course the hegels were superior, but the adcom 585 gives you SO MUCH for VERY LITTLE that you question if it is indeed worth the extra cash for the hegels? That is subjective and no i don’t think the hegels are 5 times better than the adcom. The one thing i told Larry was that i would love to hear these amps in mono mode in order to make a more fair comparison. I suspect if i use them in mono mode, things could get very interesting.
Lastly, i felt that the construction was excellent. i did not see anything at all on the amp that made me feel it was cheap. Actually, if i am being honest, the hegel h30s look cheaper than the adcom 585.
I would totally love to just have a pair here and leave them on for about 1 week and try again. I bet things would be much closer. What is mind boggling is the price point of those 585s versus the hegel h30. If you all heard both together in the same system, i bet most of you would stay with the adcom simply because of how much you get for the money. It was indeed a nice reminder of the law of diminishing returns.
I highly recommend that adcom 585 for most of you out there. Again, i pushed it as hard as i could with my wilson to try to tax it and make it shut off and i failed doing it. I could not make it break a sweat. Very good amplifier. |
Bravo to Larry for helping you set up the Adcom shoot-out! For those of you out there considering an amp or any kind of major purchase, be sure to give Larry at High End Palace a call. I bought my BAT from him and my experience was A+. 👍 |
Thanks! for sharing- chazzzy007 Happy Listening! |
Try the Adcoms as monos!
were all dying to hear how they would be |
@whitecamaross - I had suggested the 585se's one page back, and I think it's terrific that you and Larry were able to meet up, and even better that he came to your house. I hope he can get the two Adcoms for you, and perhaps he might even be able to get a BAT for you to try :-)
Dave
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Congrats on the move and discovering the Hegel/REF10/Wilson combo. Sounds incredible. Definitely would also be interested in the Simaudio 860 mono vs the Hegel mono comparison to see which characteristics you feel shine for each. The speakers I own I guess are not the easiest to drive, I'm told, and the Simaudio 870a stays fast and smooth with a wide stage at all volumes. As you point out, I am impressed by how relatively cool it is to the touch after hours of play. For what its worth, my speaker specs are: Sensitivity: 87 dB / 2.83 V / 1 m 2π anechoic; Impedance: 4Ω nominal, 3.5Ω minimum. I can only imagine what 2x 860s with the Wilsons will sound like... Envious! |
Ok guys,
The black system has left my home. I loved everything about it, but i can't hang on to 2 different systems. I want to continue using my ref10 going forward and will continue to review more amps.
Lastly, i am excited to say that next week i should have my next pair of amps which will be the first time i have ever owned this particular brand.
They should be amazing, but for the money i am paying for them, they better be magical and pour me a drink :) |
