Showing 50 responses by chazzzy007
rsf507672 posts02-28-2020 5:44amNice move to the DAWs! They are very very detailed (something we have learned you look for in gear) and are very very very dynamic. Yes I’ve heard them several times. BUT mating them with Odin speaker cable may bring to much of a good thing and while initially you might find all the detail to be fine I would think that after 20-30 minutes you would become fatigued with the sound in my humble opinion. I would have thought the Audiomica speaker cable “might” have been the better match with the DAWs or any other cable but again just my own thoughts not the Odin match-up.
I've heard Alexandrias numerous times through an Odin 2 Loom and D'Agostino amp and the sound is is absolutely effortless and pure with a deep and detailed soundstage.
After about 45 minutes of A/B’ing...
#2 & 3 are by far the winners here. Much more depth and sophistication in their presentations. #1’s presentation is "thick" and quite 1 dimensional. I’d have to hear another song between 2 & 3 to see if 3 tilts a bit much to the highs. #2 seems a bit richer and more organic in the mids while still maintaining a nice airy detailed quality with very good slam in the bass.
If #3 can sound organic and balanced on a more treble forward song while maintaining a nice balance top to bottom that would assuage a bit of trepidation on judging it’s overall quality for me. I have a feeling that this song could be covering up a very treble forward presentation here.
IMO this song by itself is not the best choice to decide on the winning presentation. IMO it’s actually quite bad since it’s so bass and lower mid heavy that it’s going to mask what would otherwise be an overly bright presentation.
I just relistened on my class A tube setup. 1st listen was through Lyndorf using my Modwright Oppo as the DAC.
On 2nd listen all 3 sound better.
#1 though better on tubes is still much flatter and 2 dimensional.
#2 sounds really well balanced to me. Presentaion is detailed open, and airy while retaining a very rich organic presentation in the mids with good control and expression of the bottom end.
#3 sounds like it has quite a bit of treble energy which makes it sound more detailed but I'd be concerned on less bass and midrange rich music that the presentaion would be a bit strident.
We need to hear 2 & 3 on another better balanced song with less bass and lower mid range energy.
My guess would be
3. AQ Firebird
On my computer the Audiomica #3 sounded the most detailed, had the longest reverberation time and (to me) sounded the brightest...then the AQ Dragon #2 followed by Odin1 #1. In fact #1 Odin1 sounded a little rolled off on the top end (over my computer). I was perplexed to hear the OP say that Odin1 was sometimes too bright for his system and felt the need to tame the sound with Cardas IC's.This is exactly what I hear. (although I think #2 is AM and #3 is Dragon)
rsf507698 posts03-18-2020 1:[email protected] you stated " Dragon was by far the brightest in "my" system. Odin the least. Audiomica in between both.
My system is in Audiogon. Click on my name...
I use Tyr 2 as XLR’s and Clear Day double shotguns speaker cables.
BAT VK 6200 which has a Neutral/slightly warm detailed sound and Modwright Oppo 205 class A tube. It’s pretty easy to hear that Dragon(#3) has the most treble energy. Surprisingly much more than the Odin on this song. Odins have a much more laid back presentation. Almost dark (at least on this song through my system) compared to Audio-mica (#2) and Dragon(#3). Vocals are much more recessed on Odin through my system vs AM and Dragon.
But like I mentioned, IMO this song is not good at all to use for comparison/poll purposes.
I believe all the BAT SS amps operate in class A/B. I have a VK-6200 and although it is absolutely superb, it operates in A/B.
Totally agree with you on their ability to drive difficult speakers. The way that they can take control of the bass with such delicacy and detail is sublime. Amazing detail across all frequencies as well as micro/macro dynamics!
@btw22 I just recently upgraded my NAD M27 and the Plinius was one of the amps on my short list. It was basically impossible to find one to audition though. I bought the BAT VK-6200 which though it has a different presentation than the Plinius, I think is it’s equal. Very powerful, dynamic and detailed, with an open, natural, just to the warm side of neutral presentation. It’s control of deep Bass is sublime. I’m quite surprised that @whitecamaross has never auditioned it along with it’s big brother the 655se though I think that neither is quite warm sounding enough for his tastes.
@btw22 I think you’d do well to listen to one the next chance you get. The BAT is absolutely superb in 2 channel. It’s so good my dealer uses them in a monoblock array for his 2 channel music system. The BAT uses a separate toroid for each channel so it’s a true monoblock design. The snap and dynamics of this amp is amazing, yet it is also incredibly delicate and detailed.
Understanding that you prefer a warmer, more musical sounding amp it makes sense that perhaps your cabling and other parts of your system are a bit more analytical and neutral in order to compensate. Maybe that’s the issue with the Boulder. You’ve paired more analytical cables and sources with a neutral amp and indeed without your warmer sounding amp you are simply hearing the upstream parts of your system.
I just read an Absolute Sound review of the 2160 and 2110 Pre-amp and initially the reviewer ran into similar observations as you. Here is what he found:
Boulder 2150 Mono Power Amplifier and 2110 PreamplifierSo Close to the Musical TruthEquipment reportby Anthony Cordesman | Jan 21st, 2015Categories: Solid-state power amplifiers, Solid-state preamplifiers |Products: Boulder Amplifiers 2110, Boulder Amplifiers 2150
@whitecamaross This is such a great thread. Maybe one additional item to add to your reviews would be speaker cables and interconnects? I don't really know if that would be feasible but they have such and pact in our system that it would be great to hear several different models and how they impact each new amp in your system. Maybe this is the next logical step to your reviews.
Keep up the good work.
Thank you! 👍
Audition the BAT VK-6200. It’s absolutely sublime. The only other multi-channel amp that might be it’s equal is the Plinius Odeon. The BAT is detailed, very dynamic, quick, and just ever so slightly to the warm side of neutral. It has tremendous control of bass and doubles down power wise into 4 OHM’s so it’s a great amp to power difficult to drive speakers. It’s so good one of my dealers uses it (in bi-amped mode) in his 2 channel reference system at home.
I am in Southern California and looked for a VK-6200 all over the U. S. for 4 or 5 months. During that time I spoke to a number of BAT dealers all across the America. Far and away the best dealer and where I ended up buying my BAT was with Larry Diaz who owns High End Palace in Florida. He is no longer an official BAT dealer, but has a long standing relationship with Viktor and Steve @ BAT. He spent about 2 or 3 months with me as I was shopping for the right amp. He took his time to answer all my questions and never once made me feel that I was taking up too much time. In the end him and I made a very fair deal for both of us on a pre-owned mint VK-6200 as well as a beautiful sound anchor custom platform. Call him and tell him Charles referred you. His number is 786-388-8050. Larry is also a dealer here on Audiogon.
BTW, there is a very well known BAT dealer about 45 minutes from me, and I have purchased a number of items from him in the past. That I decided to buy from Larry who is 3,000 miles away should say quite a bit about how he treated and worked with me.
Good luck! 👍
Maybe you want to wait a week or so before you consider changing out any cables. You have a new P10, and Bel Canto Black breaking in. Meanwhile your old components were unplugged and boxed for the move. Just about every component in your system is going to be settling in and changing sound over the next week or 2.
Happy listening! 👍
I was just going to ask the basic differences between the Bel Canto and Ref 10 and read your last post. The Ref 10 along with the Black and Luxman seem to be have been the top of the food chain in your now several year journey. I’d be interested to hear more of your thoughts on what makes these pre’s different from each other. Each of their strengths as well as weaknesses vs each other and how they compare broadly. Not necessarily which is better, but more how they compare.
Happy Easter! 🙌
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Gryphon. I thinks it’s to the more detailed, cooler, dynamic side of neutral like the Black. I’d love to see how it compares to the Ref 10 and Black. Whenever you can pick up any of the top BAT pre-amps, digital or tube, but especially the Rex 2, I’d love to hear how those compare. 👍
On the Gryphon... I think we will find that @ between 14-16K on the used market it offers quite a bit of value on the high end scale and will compare reasonably well with the Black. To be sure the Black will be on a different level but for 1/3 of the Black price I think we will get in the same ballpark performance. We shall see...
On cables. Sounds like next week it will be to to put in some copper interconnects to see how much that will darken the Black's presentation.
@rshad0000 I have a BAT VK-6200 amp and I like it fir the same reasons you like the Gryphon. It's just on the warm side of Neutral versus your Gryphon's slightly cooler presentation.
On Oppo... Wow, a very sad day for videophiles and entry-level audiophiles. I just bought a Modwright 205, and it's being delivered tomorrow. Wonder who will pick up that Mantle? Panasonic is releasing a 205 level Player in the Fall. The DP-UB9000. We'll see how that turns out.
Right now you're liking the Black more plugged straight into the outlet, but all you're doing is raising the noise floor with the electrical grunge which is softening the highs but also smearing the subtle sonic details. I use balanced power and I get the same effect when I A/B though the balanced power vs outlet. The Black is just bright at the moment. If you keep the Black you may need to find some good copper interconnects or cables or both. The Copper will warm up the sound vs the silver you have now which is much more neutral or maybe even a bit cool depending on what you are using. I'd suggest trying a good Copper IC first before adding speaker cables as well, but wait a bit longer, 400-500 hours before you change out any cables. Your Black still need lots of break in time.
Looking forward to you auditioning the Gryphon. 👍
Pair your Ref 10 with a BAT VK-655se and you will take your system to another level. The current delivery with the 655se is high, 300 watts into 8 ohms and doubles down into 4 ohms so it will bring out the best in your PL500's and Revels. It's neutral warm, musical, detailed and extremely dynamic. The 655se comes as either a mono-block or stereo amp.
If you put the BAT in your system you will not take it out. 👍
Stay away from the NADs and Class D. I had the M27 for 2 years. It was smooth, reasonably detailed, and threw a wide soundstage but had no life.
Get yourself a BAT 655se and be done with it. Or get a 4 channel VK-6200 and bi -amp it (400 watts into 8 ohms and 800 into 4 ohms) just to get a taste of the sublime BAT sound before you invest in a 655se. You need great current delivery and the BATs have that as well as detail, soundstaging , dynamics and just the right touch of warmth.
Call Larry @the Palace and ask him how good BAT amplifiers are. His reference system at home uses bi-amped VK-6200's. 👍👍👍
Apologies if I came across as harsh. Class D was smooth, and overall pleasant. When it came to critical listening though it left me wanting more and I couldn't quite put my finger on it except that I knew something was missing. Subtle harmonics, low level detail and absolute control of my speakers especially in the Bass. It got 85 or 90 percent right, but that last 15'ish percent is what really makes music come alive and makes you want to close your eyes and listen for hours.