My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Nice review. I agree with your comments - especially the Luxman. While a 31K source might not be limiting, have you considered your speakers? This particular Wilson (Sasha 2) is my favourite Wilson but it is not the last word in resolution. Harshness can easily come from the speaker...especially when driven hard. A different speaker might give you a different result. |
@whitecamaross Much of the design philosophy of Vivid comes from B&W(Lawrence Dickie) https://goo.gl/images/gbnFxP They are are not the same speaker but share almost the same design platform (driver size, crossover and cabinet structure). I would hope for you that the Vivid G1 is an improvement upon all the lessons learned at B&W and therefore incrementally better than the Nautilus. The Nautilus is a legendary design and so is the Vivid G1. At this level it is extremely positive to have a speaker designed and built by someone with such huge experience and technical know-how. You can be confident in the benefits the historical context brings. Like a great racehorse - ancestry can be important as the offspring are more likely to be great racehorses too! |
@techno_dude It is too hard to do concentric speakers with multiple drivers as well as individual drivers each perfectly designed for their frequency range - too many compromises. However, a large multi-driver speaker won’t sound integrated from 3 feet away. So large multidriver speakers are limited to farfield listening. Horses for courses.... |
@whitecamaross Yup. Just as I stated. Vivid are like Nautilus but with a lot more bass - too much bass by your account and actually no surprise to me. The Focal Sopra 3 is a step backwards from Wilson Sasha 2...the waterfall plot says it all - unwanted resonances everywhere. Nice even dispersion though. Definitely a great speaker but a step back nevertheless. https://www.stereophile.com/content/focal-sopra-no3-loudspeaker-measurements |
Any pics of WC setup? I am starting to have trouble believing this thread. Nobody buys Vivid G1 and then unloads them in less than a week or at least nobody with sanity. Along with all the other changes since 2015 it just seems too crazy to be credible. Like a drunken walk - somewhat random. The only thing that would make sense is if WC is a dealer - maybe I missed that somewhere. |
Be careful. You get what you pay for. A deal is offered because neither of these speakers are good quality (if you talk SOTA) but rather offer big margins for dealers. Measurements of Sopra 2 at Soundstage are terrible https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1445:nrc-measurements-focal-sopra-no2-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153 same issue with Magico https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1043:nrc-measurements-magico-s5-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153 Both suffer from huge linearity issues at a mere 95 dB. These are terrible designs if you are talking SOTA. If you are looking at the speakers then they are both fantastic looking for the money (aesthetics is 10/10) but neither is worthy of 90% of the amplifiers you have tried. Perhaps the Mk2 and the version 3 are better but these measurements indicate both of the prior versions are LEMONS! No wonder you got such great deals! You cannot compare Vivid G1 to either of these speakers. This is not in the same class or league at all. Frankly, you are leaning towards gorgeous looking but mediocrity in sound rather than SOTA sound that you pursued with Vivid. Of course relatively speaking these are still excellent speakers and better than most but not the same league or what one could call SOTA. I really don’t understand the randomness in this excercise. It seems pointless to buy stuff just for resale value but there are crazy folks like Steve Gutenberg who preach this strategy. YMMV but this is the direction of mediocrity (me too components) rather than SOTA. |
I Don’t understand the statement “lowest THD measured at NRC” - the measurements are good (excellent speaker) but simply cut off at -50 dB. I can’t find the statement in any of the articles except the Magico website. What is concerning is the deviation from linearity - the plots show 3 dB of driver compression at 95 dB SPL. This is not very loud. This level of performance may be excellent but not SOTA. It may not show up as distortion but the sound is clearly not remaining properly balanced at increased sound levels or with large dynamics. The plots show increasing dynamic compression as SPL increases and suggest that at 100 dB the treble is down about 6 dB. |
@sciencecop I am surprised the NRC amp cannot drive 4 ohm load at high frequencies - very little power required as the tweeter is 94 dB sensitivity - so at 95 dB SPL perhaps only a couple of watts? So I am still puzzled - perhaps the sensitivities or linearity simply doesn’t match the woofer and mid range so balance varies with SPL? Seems more likely that the voice coil is heating up and resistance increasing and sensitivity is dropping as power increases? Could it be crossed over too low for the tweeters capability? @dguitarnut I think WCSS is chasing SOTA in amplifiers and therefore I assumed the same in speakers. Both speakers (focal and Magico) are excellent and better than 99+% out there. But NEITHER are top of the line even for each manufacturer...so I think SOTA applies here to Vivid G1 but not the other two. Also the performance niggles that I point out are minor and irrelevant to most people except someone (WCSS) who has tried 30+ high end amplifiers and is replacing an already very good speaker (Vivid G1)! For record, I state again - both the Magico and Focal discussed here are on the whole absolutely outstanding speakers...just not quite SOTA. |
Agreed, Magico S5 is also SOTA. It is all relative anyway. I would be happy with Magico S5 although I don’t aspire to SOTA as my goal is more towards classic design with history and proven track record - designs that have withstood the test of time. The S5 is a really Great speaker (sorry if I repeat myself multiple times) |
@whitecamaross Your mid range comments... Magico S5 does not have a hole in the mid range but there is a significant impedance dip. Perhaps the amplifier is not keeping up. The Focal Sopra 3 has a rather noisy cumulative decay - mid cone is resonating - perhaps you hear this splashy delayed resonance... |
“I must have blasted my magico today to beyond concert levels and these speakers remained composed. Not an ounce of compression. I’m very impressed.” Oh really? Looks like severe compression at a mere 95 dB SPL to me https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/images/stories/loudspeakermeasurements/magico_s5/dev_95db.gif |
It’s a deviation from linearity plot. “Deviation from linearity - Measured with a frequency sweep across the audible spectrum on axis at 2 meters. Purpose: Shows how a speaker is stressed and if it compresses at certain frequencies as the sound-pressure level is increased. What it tells you: As volume increases, all frequencies should rise at the same rate. However, as a speaker is stressed, compression will occur at certain frequencies. The stress may be mechanical, thermal or otherwise. This test shows those frequencies at which deviation occurs as a result of compression. ” 95 dB SPL is hardly concert sound levels |
“Shadorne is a troll......he is the infinite audio expert............take his worthless word for it. If you can’t offer facts keep you mouth shut if you can’t contribute to the thread” Just trying to inject some rationality into all the hyperbole. Don’t worry about the owner not enjoying new speakers. He will have a new SOTA pair by the end of next week. Still no pics of any of this gear... |
@dasign @dracule1 The linearity test plot shown are frequency responses taken at two different SPL levels and then subtracted from each other. A speaker that has no compression will be flat across the full range of frequencies demonstrating 0 dB difference at low SPL compared to higher SPL. Only a speaker that compresses will show deviation from 0dB. Soundstage make these measurements in a government funded research laboratory. These measurements have everything to do with compression (loss of dynamics at higher SPL). 3 dB of compression is quite audible it would be similar to a tone control on the treble down by half. One can be reasonably confident that at over 100 dB SPL the compression would be 6 dB or more across the treble. Compression doesn’t suddenly get better at higher SPL - it usually gets worse. The heat in the tweeter voice coil driver will increase the impedance and this makes the passive crossover design incorrect at high dynamic SPL levels. This is a real design problem in speaker designs intended to play as loud as live music. It isn’t a problem for designs intended to play at low or moderately loud SPL. |
@lhasaguy No surprise that the C2600 will need a bit of tube rolling to sound its very best. That said, out of the box it is very pleasant sounding. I have no qualms recommending it. The phono stages are absolutely first class and the line stage with the right tube to taste can be sublime. I use NOS telefunken in the phono stages and a single NOS RCA long black plate in the line stage - the output line stage output is stock. I too thought that I would need the C1100 to get the kind of quality I desire but so far I am happy with the modest c26000 |
@whitecamaross Nearly opposite of my findings with C2600. The DAC in the C2600 is of little interest and rather ho-hum. The treble is a bit too forward. Bass is not tight at all - fairly middle of the road compared to SS - but fortunately it isn’t overly lush or warm like most tube amps. Of course, this demonstrates that you can’t learn much in a few days about the capabilities of a tube preamp. You need to spend some serious time tube rolling and what I describe is possibly entirely different because I have different tubes. Judging by your comments, I could achieve closer to the sound that you describe with NOS Mullard (Dullard) tubes. However, if you have stock tubes then I wonder if your C2600 is in need of repair? Your description is really that far off! @techno_dude Any preamp that needs +5 or +7 on the treble has got to be in serious need of repair or is very poorly matched with the power amp. |
