KEF ls50 meta’s are on the way

Interesting article. thanks.   

@mapman 

See figure 2:
https://www.decware.com/paper14.htm

My listening chair is in a straight line closer to the number 7.  Speakers are positioned so that the ''triangle'' is rotated slightly clockwise.

Honestly didn't know what to do with my LS50s after replacing them with a pair of Harbeth SHL5+40s in my home office.

Never thought of using the square front room until reading up on the benefits of diagonal speaker placement.

Very happy I tried this!  Fortunately the LS50s and my LRSs are easy to move around.

Don't have system pics yet as things are still being swapped around.

@curiousjim --

**KEF dealer disclaimer**

Just wanted to add a couple a quick things for your questions....  The Metas are not super troublesome with room setup.  If you need to run them somewhat close to a wall, they will work (especially when utilizing port plugs if super close).  Of course a little breathing room is generally a good thing with "most speakers", so if you can bring them out a bit into the room, certainly try it.
I don't really consider the Metas to be "bright" in sound.  You can add tubes somewhere in the chain if you desire (one of my favorite combos here is a Rogue Cronus Mag with my Meta demos), but it's not necessary if you don't want to play around with tubes.  There are plenty of great sounding solid state options that work well with the Metas.

As Mapman noted, due to their size, they do have some limitations to overall volume and large room size.  But they really are fun speakers, and play well above their price point (IMHO).

Hope this helps!

Taylor
www.goldprintaudio.com

@mapman  - Just wanted to share an experience.

I've had my LS50s (non Metas) for a few years at my old place (1st in a 12' x 15' den, then my 10' x 12' office) and just over a year at my new place (1st in my 13' x 16' office then in the 15' x 19' living room). 

All setups were/are run with 4 subwoofers.

Then, a few months ago, I set them up in a square room a little larger than yours at 14' 6'' x 14' 6'' with 9' ceiling.  Thickly padded wall to wall with minor room treatments.

They sounded the worst in there until I set them up diagonally.  
After minor placement tweaking, they sound much better than I have ever heard in any other room. 

Better imaging and bigger sound stage, among other improvements I am still wrapping my head around.

Interestingly, my LRS also sound better in some ways set up diagonally in there.

Would be curious of your findings with the Metas should you try this out.

@curiousjim

Yes still very happy.
Have only run them off my main system which is powered by Bel canto ref1000m monoblocks. They should do well off most any good quality SS amp. I would not run them off a tube amp. Not designed for that really.

I do use them with a Audio Research sp16 tube preamp. About 1/3 of the way into the room which is only 12x12. Also a Klipsch sw308 powered sub though the bass in that room is quite suitable without but that does help fill in the lowest octave.


Personal preferences aside, they are top notch for their size. Very insightful but not bright. Just detailed and dynamic. Great with transients. The music can startle you when it first starts in conjunction with a dead quiet noise floor.
Their size is their limitation. I would not use them in a large room and I find they are best if volume level stays modest. I seldom would ever go over 85db SPL at one meter distance listening approximately. I have larger full range speakers for that.


Within their limits they are hard to beat IMHO. Top notch for the size and cost.

Hey mapman,

I’m thinking about getting a pair of LS50 Meta’s and read most of this thread.  I have some questions for you.
Are you still happy with them?What equipment have you tried and what are you currently using?
How long was break in?
I’ve heard they’re a bit bright and I might want to put tubes somewhere into my setup.  What do you think?
 How far from the wall is the sweet spot?

I’m sure I’ll think of more later. 😀

Thanks in advance.

JD

@patrickdowns

@KENJIT never disappoints. :) LOL
The engineers at KEF have a lot more work to do before they can impress a master audiophile such as myself.



Yes, thanks for pointing it out.

Can’t let a gem like that slip by.

Definitely worth taking a screenshot of.

Beautiful work kenjit, you dare to say out loud what many others would dare not.

One thing worth adding is my big Ohms with the 12” main driver clearly have the edge still to be able to go to higher spls loud and clear especially in a larger room with no noticeable dynamic compression.
Ls50s are still small but metas are top notch for their size. I have not felt the urge to go louder than mid to upper 80s SPL with the metas in the smaller room.
Both run off Same very efficient Bel Canto ref 1000m Class D monoblocks, 500w/ch 8 ohm, so plenty of juice to go to very high SPLs with either.

@mapman 
Great recordings sound great yet each a little difference. The worst recordings are as listenable as they have ever been. 

Hello mapman, I'd like to pass along this thread and your feedback to a friend. Now that you've had the new LS50 Meta speakers for a while, what do you think?  And, compared to your prior LS50s and Ohm Walsh?  

Thanks for the kind words.  I think I am done for now. 

@mapman
Thanks for reporting progress as you go.  It's been fun reading about your Metas. I hope to demo a pair down the road just for grins.  It can be revealing moving the same speakers around to different setups with friends, in normal non-covid times. With some time on them now, and getting use to the sound, by chance are you done with gear changes at this juncture -or- possibly wondering about any upstream changes you could benefit from? Interested in following your updates. Thx.  

  

Played “The Knife” off the Genesis album “Trespass” yesterday. An original CD mastering streamed off my music server.

This is a cut I know well and have heard many times over the years with widely varying sonic results.

It was most impressive on the Meta + sub combo in terms of overall weight, soundstage and imaging and a lot of  detail I can say I never took notice of to such an extent ever prior.

Great recordings sound great yet each a little difference. The worst recordings are as listenable as they have ever been.

Very happy with these and looking forward to the latest technology baked into these to make its way into some larger models.

The Metas have been up and running for a few weeks now so a quick update.


Initially I left the sub settings alone. Same as with prior ls50s. I started to notice a bit too much in the bass in the last week or so so apparently that settled in further over time.

I did a total redo of the sub settings using a white noise Internet radio station as a source and a sound meter app on my iPhone. Not the ultimate in accuracy but good enough for a general integration of sub and mains.

Ended up with the Klipsch sw308 sub crossover frequency at its lowest setting of 40 hz and the level set to ~2 o’clock. Also adjusted phase. That is a much lower crossover than what I used on the older ls50s.

The Klipsch sw308 is fairly Big Bang for its size. 8” forward facing active driver and two side facing 8” passive radiators which help address bass modes somewhat and add output compared to a single driver.

Room again is 12x12 with standard height ceiling.

Also should mention that the thing that strikes me most uniquely with the Metas is the sound does seem pretty free from cabinet sonic artifacts. They don’t sound like box speakers. Neither did the ls50s for that matter.  More like open baffle, Electrostats or planars. The Ohms are that way as well with the unique driver configuration that only uses the cabinets for bass.   I guess it’s a result of the rigid cabinet construction bolstered now by the new sound absorbing technology applied internally.   It all adds up. 

Happy New Year Kenjit.

Bass extension could be improved. As I indicated they need a sub for full range.

Maybe in a larger room the little guys would show more limits. I have no plans to try and replace my larger Ohms in the next room with these though I can’t rule out that that might work out fine if done right.   A sub or two would definitely have to be in the equation. 

That’s it. The rest is subjective. You will have to look elsewhere for more or just buy a pair and find out for yourself. If you really care, which I doubt.

You seem very disingenuous! Just out to rile people up.

Nothing is perfect of course as you well know but some make the case better than others. These make the case quite well both on paper and in person, within their limits. Physics dictates small speakers will have limits compared to similar larger and thereby more expensive ones.

Maybe as technology advances the cost for even this level of “perfection” will go down even further.

I dont want to hear about how good a speaker is. I always like to know what things can be improved. If you are unable to figure that out thats ok but its disingenuous to pretend that they are perfect. 

Happy New Year all. 
I think after spending many hours with the new metas I can summarize and wrap things up by saying yes all the stuff you read about these ring  true.  For me they still need a sub so no shocker there but once you cover that and get things set up well these should provide many hours of musical enjoyment for even the most discerning audiophile for  a relatively modest cost. 
My room is only 12x12 so not large but in there with a powered sub I can’t imagine wanting more.  In that room and with their very good off axis response and overall tonality they are perhaps the first speakers I’ve tried there other than smaller Ohms that I am totally happy with.  The Ohms and the Metas sound are both cut from the same cloth. Not so much the older ls50s which were distinctly different. Perhaps a difference in the nature of soundstage and imaging and metas might offer a tad more detail but it would be hard to choose between the two of I had to choose only one at least for a smaller room. 
Ok ready for the next generation model now in a few years. 😉.   Can technology push the envelope even further?

Cheers!

Ohm Walsh versus KEF ls50 Metas (with Klipsch sw308 powered sub):

Anyone who reads my posts knows I am a big Ohm Walsh speaker fan.
I currently have two pair: 8” series 3 drivers in the family room two channel A/V system on second level and big Ohm F5s with 12” series 3 drivers ( and onboard level adjustment switches to fine tune to the room) downstairs where they are my main setup for “serious” listening.
Now then we also have the Metas in the 12x12 room adjacent to the much bigger L shaped room where the Ohm F5s live.

My main hifi gear is in the room with the Metas. The Ohms in the next room run off that same system connected via in-wall speaker wire run to multiple rooms in the home when the house was built.
Here is photos showing the Ohms and Metas in their adjacent rooms from perspective of my main listening spot in each room.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/WeByXVVW3EPCWPJF9

Also as a side note in the room with the Ohms now are my old ls50s seen on the photo used for separate 2 channel a/v setup also in that room.
That’s the background. Stays tuned for listening results.

Next topic I plan to cover when I get a chance is comparing the ls50 Meta/sub setup in one room (12X12)  with the big Ohm 5 setup in the adjacent room (3-4 times as big, L shaped). Both run off same gear concurrently so this will be a fair comparison.

Kenjit,
Let me say what everyone is thinking.

You are simply a sorry little troll participating in this thread to spew your particular brand of nonsense and derision. 

Are you an economist because you have that "often wrong but never in doubt" vibe about you that pretty much defines economists and financial prognosticators.

And if there's a moderator for Audiogon, where is the mute button so I can keep this guys useless trolling out of my feed?

@KENJIT never disappoints. :) LOL

The engineers at KEF have a lot more work to do before they can impress a master audiophile such as myself.

Ok Kenjit sounds good. See you then! Maybe by then you will decide if you really believe all speakers are the same or not. You appear quite torn on the topic  at present.

Come back to this thread in ten years time and we will be able to have a discussion about how bad the metas are compared with whatever speakers exist at that time. If you came back in 100 years, just think how horrible the metas would be by then!?

The original Ls50 speakers were PERFECT until the metas came along. History will repeat itself. Just you wait and see.

I got mine yesterday and I'm loving them.

I had the original LS50s paired with a couple of small REL subs and found it quite nice, but decided to splurge and buy myself a pair of Metas for Christmas and made the switch to the Metas yesterday afternoon.

"Composed" is a good word, they just seem to do things right.  Beyond that I'd say words like holographic, musical, and smooth would apply.  It's much more of a "right here in the room" type of experience than the original LS50s.  And this is right out of the box, not sure if they will improve with break in, but I'm completely satisfied as is.

Listened to the remastered Tom Petty Wildflowers that someone suggested further up in the thread and it was great.  Currently marveling at the way Norah Jones voice is filling up the room.

Two thumbs up.

Just had to add that “Sex God” from Liquid Soul’s exquisite “One-two Punch” album on Telarc label is pure ecstasy.   Highly recommended!

I’m listening to various random tracks on the Metas.
The adjective that comes to mind to describe the sound overall is “composed”. Everything sounds quite dynamic yet refined and controlled. No slop. The music just flows. Making me stay on my seat listening and not want to stop. That means these have passed the test with flying colors. I think most anyone who hears these would have to like them and have trouble finding a fault. Just add that sub and you got it all pretty much.
Some flamenco solo guitar currently by Pepe Romero. Lovely detail. You can hear each string resonate clearly and with lifelike ambience. The improved dispersion on these newer Meta’s no doubt helps contribute to that.  No artificial shimmer. 

Now some 70s funk “walk-in the line” by Brass Construction (digitized from original vinyl). Nice and punchy. Everything is sorted out and presented nicely.

Next live Dream Weaver by Ringo’s All Star Band. Live. The room is filled with sound. You can hear some individuals in the audience as part of the cheers after.

I never mentioned anything about distortion. They did compare the ls50 and the meta and the graph shows the response is pretty much identical.

Its not significant. Its only a couple db at most. You could easily do that with an EQ and it would cost you far less than buying a meta. 

I will stick with my original conclusion that you don't know how to read a response graph for a speaker. The new LS50 Meta is much smoother, There are far fewer evidences of resonances in the new LS50 Meta.

I never mentioned anything about distortion.

That is not something to be proud of. The new LS50 Meta has a very smooth response. One should be quite curious about distortion ... which you did inadvertently mention when you said "noise". That is a guess from your part having never heard it.

I briefly heard the ls50 and they had no bass. Also the sound quality changed too much when I moved my head up or down. The metas will be no different in these respects

One would not expect them to have much bass. In the vast majority of listening room, probably >95%, deep bass would be better served by well placed (for bass) subwoofers.

As this graph shows, the LS50 Meta, changes very little over the typically very small vertical listening window most people use:  https://www.stereophile.com/images/1220KEF50fig06.jpg    This would be superior to most speakers with the exception of planar arrays and electrostats which can have their own issues. You are clearly making up an issue that does not actually exist.  The coaxial tweeter ameliorates response anomalies that can occur from vertical angle change.

 Can you please provide a link in the Stereophile review where they measure the difference in distortion between the old and new versions?

I never mentioned anything about distortion. They did compare the ls50 and the meta and the graph shows the response is pretty much identical. 

The new Meta has a significantly smoother response.

Its not significant. Its only a couple db at most. You could easily do that with an EQ and it would cost you far less than buying a meta. 

It is virtually a given you have not heard the Meta and I suspect not the original either.

I briefly heard the ls50 and they had no bass. Also the sound quality changed too much when I moved my head up or down. The metas will be no different in these respects

Kenjit I actually have both. I can assure you they are not the same. So hate to say it but you are wrong there. Plain and simple, facts are facts. 

That’s all I have to say about that.

kenjit you are just here for comic relief right?  Can you please provide a link in the Stereophile review where they measure the difference in distortion between the old and new versions?  The new Meta has a significantly smoother response. For all your chest pumping, perhaps it is too obvious you don't even know how to read a response graph. 

Your posts are just weird. It is virtually a given you have not heard the Meta and I suspect not the original either. Not the be all and end all of speakers, but very good for the price.

The kef meta are the same as the old kef ls50. The stereophile review shows they are tuned identically to the old version. The meta has a dip in the presence range. Cheaper to buy an EQ and you could get the same result. The metas have one problem as do all other box speakers. They suffer from dreadful NOISE that comes from the backwaves reflecting around inside that box! Unfortunately John Atkinson has not mentioned this as it would cause a drop in sales. In ten years, audiophiles will look back at this thread and be laughing at all the fuss created over the dreadful ls50 metas! By then, the next state of the art speaker will have arrived on the marketplace! I cant wait to see what KEF comes up with next. META 2 Anniversary edition!!?

I am always interested in new products or technology that push the edge.  But only if there is some technical meat presented to back up claims. 
Similarly, I have learned over the years to steer clear of products that make bold claims of technical innovation with nothing concrete to back it up other than marketing  hype. 

The white paper is pretty impressive. It really shows the difference between companies that are truly moving forward the state of the art, and those that claim they are. 

Yes the metas are voiced much like the R3s which are awesome. Also more like my mainstay Ohms.

FYI in addition to the new driver materials KEF have voiced the Metas significantly different than the original LS50s as shown in the measurement comparisons. 
They could have updated the crossovers in the original and improved the sound without doing anything else. 
  

A few additional comments:

1) I am running the KEFs as recommended in the manual with no toe in. Manual says to toe in 0-10 degrees. These are not intended to fire straight at you.
2) They are about 4’ from rear wall, 1/3 of way into room. No port plugs. Would want more bass reinforcement from walls if not for the sub.
3) I would strongly recommend the sub. With the sub these are hard to fault.
4) They bring out the best in each recording. Even the worst ones seem more listenable than before.
5) I agree with the article above. The ls50s could be a tad bright sometimes depending. They have a bit of an appealing shimmer to the sound. These do not. The measurements in the article indicated the only noticeable variation from a flat response is right at the frequency range where ears are most sensitive. That accounts for how easy on the ears these are.
6) Yet the detail is spectacular and with no brightness or fatigue. Soundstage and imaging uncanny.  These are very good low volume speakers as well.  I am not a fan of box speakers in general but these are the exception. KEF seems to have effectively conquered those issues in a reasonably cost effective manner. Will be interesting to see if/how the technical advances here trickle up the line over time. The competition better be on the ball!

https://thenextweb.com/plugged/2020/12/17/review-kefs-ls50-meta-upgrades-an-audiophile-fave-to-near-...

Found this very good and thorough review today that really nails it and thought I’d share. 

In today’s episode of my KEF ls50 saga....

I moved the old ls50s out and into my 3rd system in the next room. They were not going back in and thought I’d use them as an upgrade elsewhere in house if possible. They replace a pair of old Boston A40s I refurbed a couple years back there. The A40s are on the bench for now but still nice little speakers. The amp driving the old ls50s is a Fosi Class D integrated amp (with Bluetooth) about the size of a pack of cigarettes.....$80 on Amazon, ~ 40w/ch advertised. It uses a TI Class D chip and sounded very good with the Bostons, a steal for the cost. I wasn’t sure if it would be up to the task of driving ls50s but said hey lets give it a shot.....ls50s look way cooler than old 1980’s Boston Acoustics (no offense).

So that turned out to be a very pleasant surprise. The little amp exceeded my expectations by a fair amount. The ls50s look and sound very good in there. It’s a 2 channel A/V setup. Never used it much for music but might be tempted more now..

Meanwhile, no news with the Metas. I’ve had some challenging recordings on them that do not always shake out well when things are not going well and even they sound perhaps the best ever so far, at least on small monitors.

Good times!

I might do a custom paint job on my current Dynaudio stands to go better with the Titanium Grey Metas rather than spend money on new stands. The ones I have work well and no real need for another pair at the moment.

Thanks goldprint and mad.  Appreciate your thoughts, decisions, decisions. 

I like them both. Different look and aesthetic. meta black finish is not glossy piano black like before as I recall...more matte?. Titanium grey is more industrial looking and the driver seems more reddish and pops differently. Which will look best in one’s room is purely a personal preference call. I had the old black glossy piano black finish prior and just wanted something a little different second time around.

I might spring for matching stands eventually. We’ll see. The meta’s have holes with female metal screw fittings inside on the bottom that look like make them ready to attach to matching stands. The originals do not have that. For now I just put the included round adhesive feet on teh bottom over those to set on my old Dynaudio stands.

THis setup is on foundation level with thin dense carpet and padding.  It's rock solid.   So I never have issues with having to worry about isolating speakers from the floor down there.

Having seen both colors, the titanium grey looks really nice in person (and I generally prefer black or wood tones when it comes to speakers).

@mapman 

From a visual point of view, in person do you like the light grey or black color best?  Thanks

I’m at my desk again in between the speakers as seen in the pic link above.

Sounds like a very good pair of headphones but more spacious from there :-). Dispersion!

Hope to get some more listening time in from the sweet spot on couch near rear wall (not in the pic) very soon and will report on that.

So far, I might question some of the more extended bass claims I have read on the new metas elsewhere but otherwise no surprises given what I read prior to buying. They live up to the published claims extremely well to-date. These are very good small monitors within their limits. Somewhat better than the originals perhaps in ways only a real hardcore audiophile would care about. Adding a powered sub (Klipsch sw308 located near rear wall in my case) removes those limits at least for my smaller 12X12 room just like before. I think even most audiophiles would have trouble pointing out faults. Lots of detail, nothing harsh, very smooth, big soundstage, and excellent imaging and dispersion.

System summary:

Logitech Squeezebox Touch -> Audioquest optical TOSLINK ->mhdt Constantine DAC-> DNM Reson IC->Audio Research sp16 pre-amp -> DNM Reson IC -> Bel Canto ref1000m Class D monoblocks -> Niles speaker switch -> Audioquest cv-6 speaker cables -> KEF ls 50 meta speakers (titanium grey). 

Supplemented by same Audio Research sp16 pre-amp -> Audioquest ICs -> Klipsch sw308 subwoofer.

Regarding off-axis response the KEF blurb says they disperse evenly throughout the room and indeed that is what they seem to do.    The tonality holds up well even where I sit at my desk in between and somewhat to the their rear.  That is no easy trick and very impressive.  I'm a bit surprised it has not been talked about more.    Audiokinesis would be very impressed with that I suspect!  They say it's a combo result  of the new waveguide and curved baffle. Seems like they nailed it pretty well this time around.

The Metas are reviewed in this months Stereophile. The measurements look very good and JA liked them better than the originals. The one thing I didn't see in the measurements were the off axis response results. On-axis was very flat from 300 Hertz and up, and the speaker had exceptionally clean spectral decay. I would love to hear them some time.

Yes, thanks. Definitely more refined overall than the originals and the originals are no slouch for their size either. Still have a lot of listening to do to soak it all in. The litmus test for me in the end is how long a setup holds my attention and makes me want to keep listening. Good omen so far for that. We’ll see. My much bigger Ohms (no subs) have been the litmus test for that for me in my house to-date. I never want to stop with those once I settle in. Both run off the same gear just in a different (adjacent) room of appropriate size so its always a pretty good apples/apples test for speakers.

Glad you are enjoying them so far!  The Metas really are fun speakers, and quite amazing what they can do considering the modest size.