Horn speakers , high efficiency but not “shouty”

I've heard these and they are remarkable. I'm not a Horn Speaker owner. I have Maggies, Tekton and Vandersteen. Different animals for sure but I have enjoyed these many many times. has anyone else heard them?http://www.stereotimes.com/speak010708.shtml

@newtoncr I had a conversation with Charney about your issues and he confirmed the problems you've been having. One thing though, according to him your room is 12x20 but the rear wall is open to a much larger room?  So the speaker is actually trying to accommodate a space possibly out of the range it was designed for? Can you confirm this it would help for offering suggestions. 

@willgolf I am still working with Brian. I don’t think expecting Brian to take it back is fair . He is a great guy and has a great product. Only problem is I am not able to make it sing in my room .
not done yet lol. Not ready to throw in the towel. More room placement experiments, room tmt , subs … on the way …
will keep u posted 

Newton
Given that Brian agreed with your assessment he shouldIf take them back.  He could always try different drivers, capacitors or resistors in the speaker.  I can tell you my Viking Acoustic Grande Voix Dual horn speakers are everything that I dreamed about.

Hi @johnk ,

How do you compensate a low midrange drop that is typical for all full range drivers?
Is any other solution than front horn to support these frequencies?

Regards,
Alex.

I have built over 100 full-range driver systems. What you are describing is a characteristic that they can have if cabinets are too lively.  All lack extension on top and bottom =unless giant. I would consider a bass horn system or multiple large subwoofers and adding a tweeter like a Fostex t900a. 300b amplifiers while lovely things some can sound thick and a bit sloppy and can cause resonance issues with some BLH. When I build full-range systems they are very large and the cabinet is very much overbuilt to reduce any coloration. 

@sbank Brian agreed the sound was not what his system should produce . He wants me to visit him and hear first hand how his system sounds in his setup . He is a great guy . Always willing to work with you.

room treatment, Brian is against them . But I have talked to asc multiple times and we have measured the room, taken recording from the room and analysed . Again the horns and how they interact with the room is not everyday for them.  They have recommendations, they recommended a soffit design for control of front end ringing . We r still working on room optimization. We tried tube traps in different configuration it just killed the music for me . 

@newtoncr,
You seem pretty tight with ASC, how about posing the question to them? 
I would hesitate to start messing w/cables and tweaks for this stuff until you've maximized the placement & setup and convinced yourself this gear is definitely a keeper. 
FWIW, I've only heard  a couple of horn setups that do any of what you're after, although they certainly have plenty of immediacy and other strengths....tradeoffs...always tradeoffs. Since the designer setup the rig, did he comment that HE thought is was sounding like it should? If yes, oh no!
Hate to ask but is seeking a refund or selling them on the table? Sorry to poke my head down the darkened hallway! Cheers,
Spencer

@sbank No I haven’t listened in another system 
or place . People who have heard it say it’s amazing and love it. Unfortunately I am not getting the same magic in my room . I am looking for advice with regard to tweaks like cables , room treatment, placement etc to try to get the magic in my room. 
Yes they have all been broken in by playing over 600hrs. 

@newtoncr, Have you heard the Charney gear in another system/room where it overcame the issues you're describing? Have you played everything enough hours for break-in yet? Cheers,
Spencer

Horn speakers , high efficiency but not “shouty”

Need help please, got the charneys the companion , and the charneys 300b amp and preamp. Got the western electric 300 b tubes and nos tubes from andy at vintage tubes . Brian Charney came over to set up the system. I find the system lacking in bass and thickness of musical presentation. It’s thin and weak the presentation .

i think i said this in another post a while back, covering a similar topic... i have been looking for 40 years now (okay, maybe 25-30)... still looking... 😞😞😞

Need help please, got the charneys the companion , and the charneys 300b amp and preamp. Got the western electric 300 b tubes and nos tubes from andy at vintage tubes . Brian Charney came over to set up the system. I find the system lacking in bass and thickness of musical presentation. It’s thin and weak the presentation . My room is 12 ft wide and  20 ft long. How can I tune the system to sound good ? Should I get a pair of subs? Brian recommends against room tmt amd subs .  I tried some room treatment it just killed the sound stage and weight of music . 
any help appreciated in advance.

TAD horn is designed for a TAD driver its phase plug improves loading for such why it exists the problem is folks using the TAD horn for non TAD drivers.

That sounds good, and you apparently still kept your other system. Best of luck with the break-in and the fine tuning. 

@roxy54 
no I hadn’t listened to these speakers before buying them .
I had listened to horn / low watt tube combo in multiple occasions. Always at dealers . Never in the optimal position in my house . I heard a presentation of vocals and instruments that was larger than I was used to . These listening sessions were brief . Other characters which I like like sound stage and depth and weight of music were not my focus during these listening sessions .
I wanted a second system with the larger than life vocals and instruments. I heard about the charneys his matching tubes and also talked to friends who I trust who have listened to the charneys . Due to Covid I couldn’t make the travel so I purchased the speakers and electronics. 
Trust me I think I have got exactly what I expected, the vocals are huge . One of my audiophile friends commented on the larger than life vocals . That was his flavor and he loved it . I am hoping with better tubes than the stock tubes I will be able to get cleaner sound . Tubes are noisy .  I don’t expect deep impactful bass with the horns . And I am not going to mess the tonal balance and unique flavor  by adding a sub . I hope to be very content with the charneys as my second system once I get the room treatment and tubes perfected . A great change in flavor to my main system  perfect after a long exhausting day at work when u want to relax with a pour of whiskey and listen Louis Armstrong and Ella play at around 75-80 db. They will be in the room with you through the charneys. 

newtoncr,
Excuse me if you have already answered this question, but did you listen to these speakers before you bought them? I'm wondering because full range back loaded speakers have a specific type of sound, and it seems from what you wrote in your last post that you were overall satisfied with your Magico setup.
What were you looking for when you made the change?

2 weeks after I got my horns and tubes, they have burned in for over 300 hrs.
I have been working on room placement with help of Brian Charney the designer , and art noxon and jordon Goulette of asc . We have traded pics , done articulation and frequency sweeps in room and analysed them .
also have ordered better tubes than stock tubes from andy , of vintage tubes .
my experience to date .
the tubes and horn combination is “dirty “ hopefully the newer tubes will better it .
there is not much deep powerful bass. The vocals are little peaked.
this is in comparison to my ayre , magico Jl audio system tweaked to the nth with room treatment etc . Eg. Listened to Steve Earle at 85 db thru my tubes sounded loud and I had to turn it down . Now listening at 95db thru my ayre, magico and it’s so clean ,  I want to play it even louder lol . 

Horns, good, better or best just have a different way of presenting music than direct radiating drivers or panel speakers. They all have their charms. I really connected with horn presentation the first time I heard Khorns.
I can surely understand those who feel differently, or those who value ruler flat measurements. The only invalid opinion is the opinion of someone who hasn't really given them a try and believes a negative opinion without self-verification.

It seems many don't like horn speakers, I get it, but one bad experience doesn't make for an overarching conclusion. Proper horn loudspeaker design and execution, proper room treatments and sympathetic system matching can bring an illusion of live performers in room that's intoxicating

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sold on horns as best speaker in full orchestra, 
No doubt, But some of us have limitations,
cash and room size. I'm limited in both areas.
Horns will have to wait  as a  distant project, ~~My last speaker~~
I'm convinced horns is the answer to high fidelity. 

I hear shouty just as atmasphere describes it. In stock form my circa mid-late 80's Klipschorns certainly had it, one major infraction was the K-401 mid horn. Exponential horn, metal, rang like a bell, bad throat design, etc. I could have never lived with those mids, timbre anomalies I would describe as shouty. My replacement Volti tractrix horns were one of the most important upgrades I made to Klipschorns, although further improvements were necessary to get natural timbre throughout frequency spectrum. Quite an experience how my Klipshcorns evolved with each modification, so many components amenable to upgrades! And yes, increased loudness shouldn't cause a single bit more stridency, hard to do with horns.

It seems many don't like horn speakers, I get it, but one bad experience doesn't make for an overarching conclusion. Proper horn loudspeaker design and execution, proper room treatments and sympathetic system matching can bring an illusion of live performers in room that's intoxicating. I've been through many types of speakers in over thirty years as audiophile, these Klipschorns have required the most involved system building and modifications yet, ocd has been required. My Klipschorns expose everything, such great efficiency, absolutely requires even a single watt of signal boost to be high quality, every link in audio chain must be optimized.

better fill of the sound throughout the listening room. The smaller horn may impress at first with its "lively" imprinting, but it really stands more in the way of the music and ultimately can't hold a candle next to their larger, well designed brethren.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sure there is  so much more to my classical  music with a  big well designed, high quality horn system.
Completely blow away my speakers performance for sure. 
I'll keep this in mind for a  down the road project. 
Probably start researching now, see what each lab has to offer. 
For full symphony, its quite likely big horns are the best of the best,,
AS I am now done with the wide band project, at least in the high end designs. 
I plan to swap out my 4 inch wide band for  the bigger brother    6.5 wide band $400/pair. 
This will hold me over til I can snag a  good deal on a  used horn, down the road. 
Good  horns are not found often on the used market. 

No proper horn is shouty. Cheap undersized poorly designed horns over a ported box can have issues since midrange is so much more efficient most compromised to make them smaller cheaper. A proper horn is fully front horn loaded to at least 100hz not many like this exist that audiophiles would buy so they opt for small poorly designed horns then go online saying that all horns shout or some such BS.

Indeed; all things more or less equal the bigger the midrange horn the less it sounds like a horn (and almost akin to a large panel speaker), although in the lowest octaves horn size - i.e.: length, overall volume and proper/corresponding mouth area - mainly dictates frequency extension and SPL, and so is set according to the desired parameters here. That is to say: in the bass department there's no cheating out with bass horns with regard to the size required in relation to extension (and SPL) needed, although variants of bass horns, like tapped horns, can further maximize the output for a given volume/horn path length in summing the output at the mouth of both the front and back wave of the driver, where a front loaded horn can only take advantage of the driver's front wave.

What's missed with smaller midrange horns more technically is dispersion control in the lower end of their frequency range. Some of them may be able to be high-passed at and sound rather well down to ~500Hz, but dispersion control has flown out the window an octave or more above. Maintaining dispersive pattern (preferably similar to the driver segment covering the range below it) and control at the cross-over that's offered with the big midrange horns isn't trivial sonically speaking. As proposed by you a proper designed and sized midrange horn doesn't sound shouty, as in at all, or what people typically associate with bad sounding horns. Smaller midrange horns, even though they're well designed, generally sound more aimed-at-the-listener, less enveloping and more agitated vs. a larger midrange horn covering the same frequency span, that by comparison sounds more relaxed, physically realistic, dynamic and with a better fill of the sound throughout the listening room. The smaller horn may impress at first with its "lively" imprinting, but it really stands more in the way of the music and ultimately can't hold a candle next to their larger, well designed brethren. 

One of my relatives is an experienced audiophile in the Midwest and he has one of the massive Klipsch horn speakers.  The sound is super impressive and alive sounding.  He uses very expensive Japanese mono tube amps.  I think Shindo or Wavac.  Like fifteen or twenty grand a set.  It is really a wave of sound coming at you head to toe.  To me it is very exciting but maybe a little exhausting if it is a long listen.

Speakerlab 7's - 12", 10", 15" horn and 7" horn. Both horns are plastic. No "bite"! SQ beats any Heresy and Cornwall. Bass goes down below 40 hz. I bought mine from Habitat for $100 + $50 delivery. I can live with the flat black white speckle finish!

@jjss49 I've found that you have to be careful with the amp that you use on a horn. It must have a clean first watt! If it has distortion issues like higher ordered harmonic generation (a problem with many solid state amps) you can certainly wind up with shouty (although it really won't matter the speaker). A good horn is a very revealing device and you do have to have your ducks in a row to get the best out of them. But OTOH that can be quite rewarding.


And to be clear some horns do have problems! For example the TAD machined wood horns have an artifact caused by an error in the throat design- its got an unpleasant peak at the bottom of its response. But with a bit of careful computer simulation I know of a modified version of that horn (Classic Audio Loudspeakers) that does not have that artifact and so is very smooth and relaxed, yet very fast and detailed. When you have those qualities together that's when you are making progress as they point to low distortion.

Apparently not the tippy top yet, or something to that effect :)

well if we specifically define non shouty horns as ’tippy top’ then i suppose you are correct

over the years i have heard avantgarde duos/trios, sadurnis, klipschorns and cornwalls, tune audio animas, cessaros ... maybe none designed properly or were set up correctly

i have not heard western electric theater horns in a domesticated environment though...

I concur with johnk.

i have had good well respected horn speakers, and also heard some very very tip top horn systems

Apparently not the tippy top yet, or something to that effect :)

Many systems can be shouty; this is caused by distortion. You don't need horns for that, just poor setup.


The mark of any good system is you can't tell how loud its playing. It should never sound 'loud'. To that end horns really don't have anything more or less to do with it except that its easier to do with horns since amplifier distortion plays an enormous role in making this work.

No proper horn is shouty.

i would have to disagree w this, based on my experience... i have had good well respected horn speakers, and also heard some very very tip top horn systems, and to me there is still noticeable horn/shouty coloration

johnk,
The OP's new speaker is a back loaded horn with a full range river, right?
I never really considered this type of speaker "horns", but I guess they are in their own way. 

No proper horn is shouty. Cheap undersized poorly designed horns over a ported box can have issues since midrange is so much more efficient most compromised to make them smaller cheaper. A proper horn is fully front horn loaded to at least 100hz not many like this exist that audiophiles would buy so they opt for small poorly designed horns then go online saying that all horns shout or some such BS.

@alexberger 
I ordered the reissue , the one reviewed in the latest issue of stereophile. I haven’t got them yet. What’s playing is Chinese tubes that came with the amp .
also waiting for tubes from andy .currently all tubes are Chinese which came with the pre and power amp.
@rodge827 
my room is 12 ft wide and 23 ft long , open in the back. 10ft tall
per Brian’s recommendation the speakers are 12” from the side wall and 18” from the rear wall. 84” between the speakers and 100” to the listening chair .
the floor is carpet , the walls are double drywall with green glue between drywall layers and hollow space packed with roxul .
acoustic treatment for now are a stack of 13” tube traps dead center between the speakers in the front wall and two traps halfway between the speakers and the listening position to reduce cross talk .

I am burning them 24/7 with the Ayre burn in disc 

Hi @newtoncr,

Which WE300B do you use?
Vintage or reissue?

Regards, 
Alex

newtoncr, With a new amp, preamp, and speakers you will need a lot of run in time. Probably in the 300-500 hour range. You have a lot going on right now that will affect the sound.  Tubes from Andy are a good idea. He knows his stuff and good tubes do make a difference. Tell us a little about your room. Size WDH? Treatments? Flooring? Speaker placement etc....

When I got my Companions it took a few weeks of run in time just for them. I have a basement room where I was able to use an old receiver. Wired the drivers out of phase and had them face each other about a 1/2” apart. Put the Isotek burn in disc on continual play, turned up the volume and let them go for a few weeks. Even after that the drivers were still a little tight and sharp. Then all of a sudden bloom! Be patient it’s worth it! 

iF Andy can’t help…well….then….. ( i get almost all my tubes from Andy… )
but as others have said give it time…

i have at least 3 systems at any given point, so i can relate when some combination is disappointing against the reference…..

it will make you a much more discerning listener…..and possess a real balanced opinion….priceless…

good luck on your journey…..

Yes I have been playing them for over a week now, tonal quality hasn’t changed . Ordered tubes from andy bowman vintage tubes per his recommendation and a pair of 300b western electric tubes after reading the review on stereophile. Hope they help time the harshness and clean up the sound. Any other ideas . 

Congrats -- I guess.  Are you referring to the speakers or the 300B amp?  Also, it is hard to make judgements right out of the gate.  Tell us more after at least 50 hours of run time.  

Hi everyone,
I finally received my charneys Excalibur speakers and his 300 b power amp and preamp
based on audio note kits but made with higher quality caps and resistors by brian. 
I have included pics in my system page .
i am not very impressed by the lack of bass and tonal harshness … I will be rolling tubes per Brian’s advice … any other recommendations…

Dear @newtoncr : Thank's for your explanation, that's what I imagined. Good luck.

R.

@rauliruegas 
yes my main system is the best I have heard in the last 49 yrs . Heard many systems in diff homes, shows and in company showrooms .
the ayre and magicos are true magic . I love them . Took me nearly 20 years of trying out multiple components before I got to the combo I have .
The Charney speakers with tube pre and power amps built by him will be my second system. I have heard the diff flavor of the horns , they are different,  not better maybe not even as good ( yet to hear a horn system that sounds better than the magicos to me and that’s totally my ears ) . But horns offer something different esp in certain  recordings which I haven’t heard in box speakers or planar speakers. My second system is to fill that void , and like I told Brian Charney they won’t be competing with my main system, but will be complimenting my musical experience in my house . 

Dear @newtoncr : You own really good system with top analog rig and I read there what you posted:

""  Best sound I have ever heard, the ayre magico combo is magical and airy 😊.Been through many diff amplifiers and speakers but never have I heard a better combo.  ""

So, you are looking for something better ( I think? ) and just for curiosity: what's wrong with what you own?

A change of transducer always changes the " name of the game " and maybe what you are seen could sounds different but not necessary better and exist " thousands " of transducer alternatives that in true can outperforms what you own today. Just an opinion.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I have the similar size room 14' x 22' x 8' my 6 watt SET drives Altec 604E easily.
I'm sure even 2a3 or 45 SET will be enough!
I think the really sensitive horn speakers don't need more power for a such size room.

I currently enjoying a set of Symphony   Horns by Auto-tech
My room size is very comparable to yours and these speakers have no issues  filling the room with amazing sound at low to extremely high volumes , without any hint of strain.
My mono blocks are only 20 watts per channel and its plenty of power which is a tremendous advantage if you like amp swapping.
This is the first set of speakers that Im not even looking to upgrade even though I had a chance to get the top model called the Universum MK4 .
As I upgraded my electronics the speakers responded to an amazing level and at that price point I feel these speakers are great value.
One other thing worth mentioning is the fit and finish is truly first class.

Heresy IIIs with a well sorted tube festooned amp/preamp...no shout at all. This, however, was NOT the case with the IVs I recently owned although I'm not sure why that was. The IIIs have a completely different horn design which I seem to prefer.

@newtoncr --

Interesting choice with the Charney Excalibur's - congrats on your purchase. Please let us know what you think of them once you're ready to share some impressions. 

I have placed my order and the down payment now the anxious wait 😊.

I've heard that speaker with the voxativ driver.  It sounded very good.  I think you have a speaker that can go toe to toe with almost anything on the market at any price.

Very nice...enjoy :-)

@rodge827 the voxativ ac-2.6

newtoncr, congrats you’ve made a great choice! Which driver are you choosing for your Excalibur?