Separates. Always.
DAC's Streamer and Preamps
I have been searching for a DAC for a while now. In the meantime I have been using a laptop plugged into my preamp until I decide on the DAC I want. I definitely know this isn't optimal. In my search I have been looking at individual DAC's, DAC's with preamps or volume control, DAC's with streamers built in and sometimes all three. I wanted to throw it out there and find out what people's preference is? I know previously having everything separate was the best way to go but because of technology things has changed a bit. What are your thoughts?
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I used my PC’s headphone out to audio in to stream music videos in my office for many years, then I found out here about an inexpensive Topping DAC for only $110. It’s usb out of desktop or laptop to DAC, RCA out of DAC to RCA IN of ..... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08F54TT79?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1&th=1 I needed a USB extender, didn’t change the sound, just gave me location options https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00P0ES0YE?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_4&th=1 Far superior sound, and stronger signal to my little tube amp.
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@elliottbnewcombjr Thank you for that info. I wish I would have done that a few months ago. I would like to make a decision on a nice DAC in the next week or so. |
It never hurts to start with an inexpensive piece that sounds surprisingly nice, 'good enough' to start, for future emergencies, loan to friends .... and you have it to compare/prove something you try sounds better. I have a Pyle $16. MM RIAA phono stage, I used it with a Carver Cube Amp while choosing a new integrated for my office. I tried/compared and returned 3 highly respected mid-priced phono stages to it, finally the phono in my Little Luxman Tube Integrated sounds better to me. |
I have become impressed by Eversolo's offerings. In particular the DMP A8 is rather good, I use it in my 2nd system, connected to a 300B SE amp and Harbeth P3ESR speakers. This device has a streamer, DAC and Preamp in one well made box. It supports a very wide array of streaming and Internet Radio sources. IMHO it matches its reviews.
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@brbrock there is no blanket answer here. Depends on design and implementation. And it all boils down to your budget. A high end 3 in one unit will beat out cheap separates. So what price range are you looking to stay in? |
Since starting down the digital source road, having separates enabled me to grow my system while learning more about each digital process and how to optimize those. However, all that said, times are different, the playback of digital music files is a more mature process, and the gear is better. If simplicity is important to you, one piece you may want to look into is the Meitner MA3i DAC which also streams and adjusts volume and, which, at a list price of $11.5K, is said to deliver a good portion of the sound qualities of the upper EMM Labs offerings costing over $30K, while leaning to the musical side of playback. The display also looks really good. (review with measurements) |
Great advice from @elliottbnewcombjr ...
I've owned multiple DACs. They all sound different. You may have a preference for a cheap one over an expensive one. I sold a $6k DAC because I liked an $1800 DAC better. I now use an all-in-one that I love. |
three of my favorite units are the msb analog dac, the weiss 501 and chord hugo tt2/m-scaler combo.... they all have volume control capability for their analog outs, which allow them to directly drive the power amp, the first two have built in streamers too (the msb even has an additional analog input for, say, phono!) it is wonderful to have that flexibility, a real boon to system building -- there are enough boxes already in the digital front end to get the streamed feed nice and clean not to say there aren’t some instances where a great pre doesn’t add some additional musicality -- still keep my c-j and arc tube linestages around for that reason (though i must admit they haven’t been hooked up for quite a while) |
+ 1 Separates for sure.
Do you have a budget restriction? Schiit Yggdrasil is a good starter DAC. In general the more you pay (choosing the best at each price point, the better they get). Typically you want to match the quality of the rest of your system, or future system. My rule of thumb is choose the very best at your investment level and ~ $Streamer = $DAC = $Preamp (yes, separate) =$Amp. |
For me the R2R Yggi+ OG is an end game DAC. Especially the discontinued A2 variant (or Yggi+ OG DAC). I would not replace this DAC with anything mentioned in this thread up to $20k. At this current time, you may see a lot of Yggi DAC variants show up on the used market. The reason is that Schiit has just released a new Delta-Sigma DAC that people are loving. Schiit actually designed the whole thing from scratch. That is ZERO off the shelf ships, such as an ESS or AKM chip. Not many digital companies can do that. Rockna, Playback Designs, Chord come to mind but they are not delta-sigma. I am in the queue to get the Byggi DAC via an upgrade of my other DAC, the Yggi+ MIB variant. the cost of the upgrade is $1500, and the new cost is $3500. It can also be used as a digital volume with some DSP though I will not use that feature. I will use it with a RAAl VM-1a tube headphone amp, Kara F preamp, and Benchmark HPA4 preamp. All connected at the same time. Even though the Yggi+ OG is an incredible DAC I am considering selling it along with the Yggi+ MIB and Yggi+ LIM cards. This gives someone 3 flavors of DACs. Easy to hear the differences on my system. The reason is to generate cash for the best DAC I ever heard and that cost $26k, the Allnic D-15000 Signature OTL/OCL. Do not listen to OTL/OCL gear it will be hard to go with anything else afterwards. Very expensive.
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@ghdprentice more modern high end DACs include a preamp section now. The volume control in some of these units rivals what an equally priced preamp can do. Some of these DACs also include very competitive network cards for streaming (as a roon end point for example). You would really need to dish out some serious dough to improve on the performance of these units. Unless you have multiple sources you might not actually need a preamp. Another use case for a preamp is if you wanted to add tubes to the chain. |
@jallan you’re able to determine that from listening to an unfamiliar DAC in an unfamiliar system at an audio show? I envy you. |
i’ve had the og yggy as well as the lim version, and currently I have two lampi’s (among others) the yggy’s are pretty nice overall, have a lively personality, but the lampi’s are in a different league of realism of soundstage, "analogness" of presentation, and musical drive/impact when the music calls for it the yggy has an uptilted, sometimes unruly top end, can be quite aggressive and sibilant... that is its achilles heel |
@jallan On January 10th weekend I am heading out to a headphone audio event. The show will have the following: -Imersiv DAC (along with DAC designer) - Allnic D-15000 Signature OTL/OCL (my choice as the best in the world) - my Schitt Byggi (if I get it delivered to my home by January) - Chord Dave - Mola Mola Tambaqui (not sure) A couple of headphone dealers will bring RAAL 1995, Stax, and ZMF. Attendees will also bring their own phones; I will bring a Focal Utopia OG and a RAAL SR1a. This is a great way to compare gear. I can gauge where the Schiit Byggi fits in this group. Last year, my Schiit Yggi+ OG was sent with a friend, and it was closely compared with the Mola Moila Tambaqui and Chord DAVE. Here is what the DAVE owner said about the Yggi+ OG. My friend liked the OG more than the DAVE.
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@jjss49
I have always considered a tube DAC but was never swayed because I feel some resolution or detail is lost with tubes. Though the tubes give other benefits. [Edit: I just remembered I had the popular tube DAC Audio Mirror Tubador. It was nice but it was also missing detail.] The Allnic DAC that I am raving about, and about to get a 2nd job to buy it, is the most detailed DAC I ever heard. It is also a tube DAC and has an incredible holographic sound. From my research into the South Korea designer, I am inclined to believe this guy is onto some genius level OTL/OCL designs. I think it is this OTL/OCL that elevates the Allnic from other regular tube DACs. like the Lampi et al. My comments on the Yggi+ OG above are not to meant to say it is the greatest DAC. It is meant to say it is the greatest DAC at that price point.
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I like this post from today comparing the Yggi+ OG with the new Byggi, |
In my experience separates are the way to go. That way you can change or upgrade over time. Especially if you’re like me and enjoy tweaking your system and also trying out the latest and greatest equipment. On the other hand. If you don’t like tinkering and want to just get it and forget it, go with an all-in-one setup. |
Generally- separates perform better by isolating noisy circuits from each other, and future upgrades easier to replace a single function component. However, it’s costlier with more casework and cabling. Digital continues to evolve rapidly vs analog - a good reason for separates. DAC with volume control- Generally, one can run the DAC without a preamp, but a preamp will usually make it sound better (more engaging, realistic…). But, there may be exceptions. I moved from a separate steamer and DAC to a streamer/DAC because a used Linn DSM/2 w Organik DAC was a fantastic sonic bargain in the realm of top DACs. I also moved from a separate preamp and amp to an integrated because the Audionet Humboldt offered reference top Sonics but within my budget. |
Some brands make incredible all in one units, Lumin is one of them. Streamer, DAC combos at various price points. All are great, have built in digital volume control. If you plan keeping a combo unit for awhile, don’t really like to tweak things, great option. From a flexibility standpoint, separates are the way to go, allows you to swap out DAC’s, easier to tweak, make changes. So many options, depends on your budget and sound preference, matching gear. Ability to replace a pre with a DAC / Streamer with volume control is really system dependent, works well with some amps / speakers but with others a Pre will generally make a noticeable improvement. Schitt, Lumin, T&A, LTA (Areo), PS Audio, Chord all make great DAC’s with different design philosophies, R2R, Tube, FPGA, Chips. Used is a great way to get more bang for your buck, good luck. |
I subscribe to the advice that a higher end system will benefit from a separate pre but not necessarily a separate DAC and streamer. However, since I have not seriously looked at upgrading components for the last two years, I am not real familiar with the more recent all-in-one boxes. I know there has been a big focus on volume control which has been a weakness in the past. Especially if one is only streaming there is no question this option could provide the best value. You should certainly consider it and let your ears and wallet be your guide. I think the traditional "separates are always better" logic is simply not valid for everyone. |
You want a DAC that can keep up with the over 10K DAC’s? Give this one a try:
The inside of the APS Audio Modified PS Audio Directstream DAC . This is one of the best sounding DAC’s that does not sound digital. The Limited Edition Signature Series PLUS It’s a DSD / FPGA / Audio Transformer based DAC. No DAC chip! We compared this to many over 10K DAC’s and it always came out on top. |
I am a separate component guy, but, it will cost you more money in interconnects, power cables, and possibly linear power supplies, and you will need more space. Of course components give you more flexibility for individual upgrades. I am old school and always believed that separates improved the sound, but, in the medium and high end that may not be the case anymore. I have separate preamp, monoblock amps, separate CD/SACD transport, separate DAC, separate streamer, separate LPS (s). So, for example, if I update my DAC, my streamer and transport will take advantage of the upgrade and my preamp does not need to be upgraded. But, you already know all that... When I started, Marantz Receivers were near the top of the line, so, integrated.... then separates were the rage, and now, integrated is back. In addition, the old Marantz receivers are still considered good sound today. So, I would say that today, either component or integrated can give great sound, just go with your needs and the best components you can afford. However, as others have said, for volume control and other advantages, I am still a proponent of DAC to Preamp to Amp(s) - whether integrated or separate components. |
@audphile1 I am listening to recordings that I know very well, and listen for particular things. I have listened to these DACs I mentioned extensively on a number of different systems. When I refer to resolution, I am referring to aspects of the recording that I hear on my system and hear or don’t hear on others, and vice versa. I have 50 years plus of listening to good stuff and live music, so my ears are well trained. I stand by what I said- the Yggdrasil OG resolves inner detail, soundstage and impact as well as any of those DACs. I agree that what sets the higher Lampizators apart from the Yggy is an upper midrange and high end that lacks the Yggdrasil’s occasionally too sparkly high end and that has a remarkable sense of naturalness. That better upper midrange and high end comes at a cost of 10 times what I paid for the Yggdrasil.
I mentioned those two DACs/DAC series because I think highly of them. If Schiit didn’t exist as a company, I might have the LTA DAC or cheapest Lampizator. They are very natural and organic sounding. The pairing of my Yggdrasil with a Cary ultimate upgraded SLP05 preamp with excellent Raytheon VT231 and CBS/Hytron 5692’s means that my system is less affected by the slight drawbacks of the Yggdrasil as compared with those who have preamps with brighter top ends and hotter sounding speakers. I hope that you understand my comments now better. |
@yyzsantabarbara Many thanks for your links and thoughtS! |
There are two camps: those that favor separates for everything and people like me that like the simplicity of a one box set up. You did not say what your budget would be but I have been happily using a Weiss Dac 501 for three years and that has a dac, streamer, and can also function as a preamp The software also allows room correction. however this is a $10,000 pro unit. I have the Weiss connected direct to my amp. |
Unless you have a high end sound card in your computer, anything is an improvement. @elliottbnewcombjr gave you a good suggestion. Another one is getting an Audioquest Dragonfly DAC. There’s three different ones available with the Cobalt being the most expensive at $200. From here, the sky’s the limit. All the best. |
@jallan cool. I personally don’t know what component I am hearing when I am listening at a show. Between some gimps walking from speaker to speaker inspecting every dust particle on cables and turntable plinths while taking videos of components and bending down to inspect more dust particles on the second component rack shelf presenting their tukhes as part of the soundstage, and the constant chatter as well as unfamiliar room acoustics and who the f knows what cables are connecting all this equipment…man I have no idea what any of that $hit sounds like. Good for you that you can make a definitive decision on sound characteristics of individual components in that type of environment. |
In general, that is a very true statement. Fortunately, there are some exceptions. Some DACs have pretty decent digital volume controls and sound pretty good running straight into an amplifier (like the Mola Mola Tambaqui for example). However, a great sounding preamp with a true analog volume control can be better. Fortunately, you can have your cake and eat it too. The Mola Mola Makua preamp has the option of a Tambaqui DAC built into it. That way you have great DAC performance with a true analog volume control. |
