I wonder if they’ll do a new 3, I always loved that speaker. |
Pete - I have been in recent touch with Richard and I am excited to hear them also - hoping one of my three favorite dealers here in Southern California gets one of the first pairs :-)
Vandersteen - Beating Inflation and giving you better sound since 1977 !!! |
LOL, Jim, same here. He has talked me into his M5 amps for the Quatro's. Call me when you can and let's catch up. I have been BLOWN away by those amps. Best amp I've heard under about 40k.
Listening to Elton John, Live from Moscow with Ray Cooper. I always love when he does stuff with Cooper. It's a really fun stream. Kind of playful.
Agree on his value proposition. I just get blown away. I can't wait to hear the new 2's with some of the affordable tube stuff like Quicksilvers or Rogue or even the SS Belles Aria that Johnny uses a ton to audition them. That's one of the most underrated integrated amps on the market I think.
Dream value system:
NEW Vandy 2's
Belles Aria integrated
Aurender A10 streamer/DAC (what a freaking buy) or the Room NUC into the Ayre Codex DAC, which is still my favorite DAC under 2k
That's a true high end system right there with great value products that all work really well together as I've heard them a ton ;)
Back to music,.....er toys......er both |
We just received the new Vandersteen 2 Sig 3 today. We are going through burn in and tomorrow we shall setup the speakers. Initial reaction is that it has potential to do some amazing things.
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Thanks Sunil. I can't wait to hear how you like them with the all in one Hegel. I can't believe they still are under 3500 a pair (off the top of my head I think I'm even a couple of hundred too high). |
Sunny Components Inc, Here are Sunny's thoughts and observations.
We have been dealers for audio products now for over 2 decades. We have had great products come by our store which have led to this massive amount of experience. Taking master class setup from the likes of David Wilson, John Giolas and Peter McGrath and the master of speaker setup Stirling Trayle we have come to adore some brands. You also learn that not every brand of speaker is right for everyone.
Richard is very dedicated in making product in USA employing all his staff from the central valley led by his family who keep a tight control on numbers, business and details like shipping. Even in this Pandemic the speakers came in 10/10 condition, packed professionally with proper strapping and on a pallet. Shipping like this costs $500.00 usd.
This speaker had a burden on its head as it has to outperform the largest selling hand made speaker in USA for our high end business appox 100K pair. I personally did not want to ever mess with a sub 5k speaker but after my own daughter purchased a home, I saw many of her friends seeking new homes and audio. Making a great budget high performance system was a quest that has brought me to this marvel.
Initial random observations.
The Bass resolution is quite amazing. You get to hear true tonal characters in Bass with pin point articulation. The decay in the mid-range is alluring and draws you in like a good book. |
:-) how fun
looks like a road trip North to Covina to listen
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Greetings Sunny Glad you got a pair in already and looks like removal of the Mid/treble controls with new x over = improved transparency allowing the Five series woven cone midrange/tweeter to perform at another level Can't wait to get our Vandersteen 2CE Sig 3s JohnnyR
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From the Vandersteen site:
"While the electrical path is improved the proven driver components used in the Model 2Ce Signature II remain in the Model 2Ce Signature III"
Seems like the improvements are are all in the crossover circuit plus removing the contour controls which by itself should simplify the signal path. |
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yes, it's amazing how shorting the signal path is to sound quality, lol. Get as much out of the path as you can and he's doing that. It's pretty exciting to see this in the 2. Did the 3 have the same controls as the 2 that are now gone? |
Yes the 3a sig retained the mid and tweeter level controls. |
So after all this time, no major improvements? Sounds a bit anticlimactic |
ctsooner
No doubt that Richard will continue great success w/ this newest iteration of the 2/C series.
Happy Listening!
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Im sure they will continue to do as well as ever, I was just hoping for some really big changes. I remeber I bought my 3a signatures somewhere around 2003, and there havnt been any changes in the 17 years since. Was hoping for some upgraded drivers, etc. I even listened to the 5a, pre carbon days, and felt that the 3a was a better sounding speaker, at least to me. |
I would rather have a piece of audio equipment that stands the test if time, that is so good the manufacturer doesn't change it every few years just to boost sales. |
I always thought those contour controls were superfluous in my model 2Ci, especially as they get older and tend to get scratchy. I now wished I had tried opening them up and taken the controls out of the circuit just to see it made a difference. |
Hi Jafant (Mr Theil, lol).... Welcome. I need to get to LI to hear your system and you are always invited to CT to come listen. I will get Sam Laufer who owns Laufer Teknik's to come over and show off his source gear and DAC. Pizza is on me! lol.
Guys, Richard is the most conservative designer I've ever met. He constantly finds better components for crossover, wiring, boards, solder, teflon connection strips and the list goes on. He implements these changes over the years without coming out with Mk 2,3,4,5 etc... unlike most other speaker designers. HE's frugal beyond all get out (most of the older timers were, including Jim Thiel, for jafant!).
He only comes out with a different number or 'signature' when there are so many changes that it makes sense. I know that we all hear differently, and for those of you who have spoken with Richard, you know he's a no BS guy in every way of his life. For anyone to think this isn't a much much better speaker (for only $100 more), when you haven' heard it, it's not fair to make the statement that things are anticlimactic.
Go listen before feeling it's anticlimactic. |
Don’t think anyone has said it’s not better, I have no doubt that it is. Richard dosnt make changes lightly and certainly not if it’s not going to be an improvement. Having said that, 17 years is a heck of long time, and personally I’ll pay more to get more, there are no free rides. I’m hoping since the 3a is so similar that we might see something happen there soon also. I already have called my local dealer to let me know when they get a pair of these in so I can hear them. |
Bump, just saying that he has constantly upgraded every part of the 2's since the last model. He's found recent ways to upgrade even more. Just upgrading basic components on boards can cost hundreds per pair. Just saying that we shouldn't think that upgrades are always 'seen'. It's all good as folks will want to go hear the new ones and upgrade if they want to. Of all folks, Richard isn't looking for free rides,
I've never spoken with him about the 3's upgrading, but I assume that will happen soon enough. I also bet that he's upgrade the 3's with at least what he's done with the 2's as that's how he's done it since day one. Again, I've never discussed this with him. Just exciting to see the oldest model in production upgraded enough for another mark. :). |
Vandersteen makes running changes to models without changing the name (other manufacturers also do this, eg, Ayre). The 2Ce Sig II got a new midrange driver circa 2012 that was unannounced and I think RV made one or two other changes before the Sig III. So, the change from "Sig II" to "Sig III" is more than the crossover and removal of tone controls. I also know from experience that upgrading the crossover can make a very substantial difference so I'm not going to poo-poo that change.
Also, I'm confident a 2020 3A Sig is not the same as a 1999 3a Sig. |
Pete when this virus is over I will fly in to meet @jafant he is a cool dude and especially good at hosting the Thiel thread - bunch of guys who love music and time and phase correct.
i owned the 3a signatures for 8 years and make no mistake they are a formidable value. They should be fantastic as they use both the tweeter and midrange from the 5a. The Soundanchors brace is audiophile ugly but works super well. Having also owned the 5A for 5 years, the 3A gives up a bit in clarity and the ability to play lower in any room. A well setup and powered 3a might be the absolute best value in Audio. I ran them w a MC202, man can they rock.
i see this discussion as fruitful for all involved. My 3a signature in yo man service at brothers system in Florida SOTA Sapphire, Ortofon Black, ARCSp-15, big class A Threshold... you know it sings....
have fun |
Unless it’s communicated to the consumer, how do we know what, or if any changes have been made. I don’t assume, and havnt heard Richard anything at all in the many interviews between those times. No reason to change if there’s no improvements, and I know many people who like to know what the improvements are so they can determine in their minds if upgrading is worth it to them. I’m sure I will pounce all over it if they do introduce an improved 3a. A crossover can most definitely make a difference, I’m just hoping for even more. And I’ll reward those improvements with a purchase. I actually wish they’d make a “super” 3 model. It always sounded less boxy and livelythan the 5a did, which is why I didn’t step up back then. Give me deeper, and more impactful bass, but with the same open and airy sound of the 3a. Give us the carbon. Not sure what grade of components are used in the crossover, but if price can be expanded, then possibly upgrade those. Charge more of course |
Richard just won't talk about his upgrades unless asked about them. He's just a modest guy who loves to talk audio. When he finds special caps for instance, he won't talk about implementing them, but will just do it.
Personally, I own Ayre too and Ryan is the same way. I think it's why they are so successful for so long with the same models. You can hear the differences though, no doubt.
Jim, I have the whole upstairs of the townhouse for you to stay at. Live on a lake as you know, so the views off the back room are not shabby. Nothing like your fishing charter at sea, but hey, water views are still water views, lol. That would be a ton of fun. We will visit Johnny too. He'd LOVE that. I bet we could get a bunch of guys to meet us there too. I will get Matt Clott there (new TAS reviewer and an uber close friend as you know) too. |
@ctsooner did you swap out your Ayre AX-5 Twenty? |
Not yet, but if you know someone who wants mine with the built in crossover for Vandersteen Quatro on up, let me know. I can't post exactly what they did, but let's say the x over they installed was with their premium components and sounds as transparent as the 7 series one.
I will be upgrading to the M5's soonish as they will install an analog volume control in my sever/DAC. Not sure if I have posted that or not. |
@tomic601 , @ctsooner ,
If you guys ever arrange a meet up, let me know. It would be fun to finally put a face to the tag- though I know yours, Peter.
Bob |
Don’t worry Bob, you were part of my thoughts as I know you are on the island lol. |
Bob - just picture a well fed but better looking Hemmingway and you have me nailed ! Pete to hang with you guys, I would stare at a waterfront mud puddle!
Glad you are breaking new ground w DAC direct to power amps....I want to try that but BEFORE getting rid of the REF5se, which finally needs new small signal tubes. |
Jim, it's an analog volume control rather than the digital one it already has set up. I don't need a switcher, so Richard said this was a good way to go. Yes, let's all get together when we are able to. |
I loved my 3A Signatures and only sold them when I no longer had the appropriate room. That was a while ago, had them bi-amped with the last 2 Counterpoint SA-220s that left the factory. So yes, a few years ago.
I've been through quite a few speakers since them but lately had been thinking Model 2s should be next. Now with an updated 2 I guess it's meant to be ;~)
I still have one of the SA-220s, a pair of Quicksilver Silver 60s, a Threshold Stasis and the Music Reference RM-9 II (running RAM KT-88s) which Roger Modjeski said he designed for the Vandersteen 2s.
So I should be able to have a lot of fun with the new 2CE III ! |
You will love them I bet. The components on that board that are new will take these to another level. Folks just don't realize how great capacitors can make such a difference. There are better and better ones made yearly and Richard knows what he wants and makes an upgrade like this. Heck, he is using the mid range from my Quatro's in the 2's and we all know what a difference that makes.
I'm really excited to hear this one as you can mate it to the Hegel all in one or one of the NAD units or even a Rotel and have a great system for not too much money (high end standards). It's a great time to be into high end audio even if you can't afford 5k plus speakers. |
+1 "take these to another level" @ctsooner . I was gobsmacked by the HUGE difference in SQ when I went from the 2C to the 2Ce Sig II. I could not believe it was the same speaker with updates. The 2C sounded really good, the Sig II sound wonderful. I have no doubt the III will be an amazing improvement. Wish I could afford them...:( |
Folks just don't realize how great capacitors can make such a difference.
Absolutely. I have first-hand experience with this as I replaced *all* parts in my Thiel CS2.4 SE except the drivers and cabinets. Heck, I even heard a small but meaningful difference among woofer *shunt* caps identical other than voltage rating (and, therefore, film thickness). I have no doubt this is the best model 2 ever and hope to hear one sooner than later. |
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Has anyone actually heard the new ones yet |
So far only the dealers. Oh, of course Richard, Brad Richards kids, etc..... lol... I was told that these are on another level than the last version. He's using top of the line components in that crossover. The caps and inductors are VERY expensive, even at the number he purchases. The amps are also upgraded, so even the bass will be much better. This is probably why he gave it the new designation.
I personally can't wait to hear it. Put this with an all in one integrated/streamer and what a system you can have at various price levels (depending on whether you want a Rotel all in one or an NAD or Hegel or even better. |
Can you get Carbon speaker Drivers with this new Model 2ce signature III 's ?.
I would buy a pair right now if I could get Carbon speaker Drivers with these new speakers!. |
I had talked to Richard Vandersteen about this and he said the cabinets of the model 2 were not inert enough, that is, not controlling vibrations as well as the more expensive models (Treo Ct., Quattro Ct Wood, etc.} which would impede the performance capabilities of the carbon drivers. Specifically the carbon tweeter. He also said it would make the model 2 excessively expensive, which is not one of the goals of the model 2. |
I bet a Belles Aria Integrated would be a nice combo for the new Model 2. They certainly work with the VLR's.
Now that would be a very price conservative combo.
B |
Anybody play Classical music though these ?
I've heard they do better on rock .How much are the new ones ?
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Guys, if a speaker is good, it will sound good on anything. I asked Ricahrd about this some months ago as I too have always felt this way. He totally agreed.
The one nice thing is that they are a full range speaker. That's most important IMHO for classical music. You will never get fatigued and they don't smear (like the other Vandy's that don't smear).
No one who's posting has ever heard the new ones that we are discussing. That said, there are a ton of classical music lovers who own a pair of 2's. Time and phase alignment makes a huge difference. |
True , but can be a big IF .Many expensive speakers are voiced for rock , in USA out of 1,000 people , 35 listen to Classical .
Having owned 4-5 phase alignment speakers it does help but I would not
say a huge diff.
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@glissando what a great amp collection you have and yes the RM-9 was voiced w Vandersteen as Roger was an early adopter Vandersteen dealer on East Coast.
i can assure you that the RM-9 is a formidable amplifier running Treo CT with either RAM KT88 or EL-34 ( you can see both on my Casa Pacifica System pictures )
I think an option very worth exploring and one the savvy Vandersteen dealers are tumbling to is the VLR- Signature which has the Carbon tweeter and a Sub 3 ...about $1,500 less than Treo w obviously different form factor.. |
On classical music... and this is just my $1.50 ... there are probably two issues to get clear on:
how does the rest of your system treat time and phase ???? For a hint the Vandersteen amplifiers use no global feedback. Most of the gear Vandersteen show with follows same philosophy: Ayre, Aesthetix, ARC, Brinkmann.... I have an Audionics CC2 low TIM low feedback amplifier from the 70’s that shines w time and phase correct loudspeakers....
secondly - iF your cup of tea is the closely miked and many many microphones ( latter DG ) Recordings, then time and phase might not be for you...
listening is the key...
I have New World symphony on today.... |
The 1958 Reiner and Chicago.... just three Microphones as memory serves... stunning...
IF we survive and any of you get to Seattle or Carlsbad CA, stop by for some music and fellowship |
The RM-9 Mk1 is at least to me a fascinating amplifier- highly musical but also has a three position negative feedback ( gain ) switch , so with careful level matching and upstream components up to task - easy to hear the stereo image effects of Higher feedback.
RIP Roger |
@tomic601 ,
And, don't forget Charlie Hansen.
Bob |
So true, Ayre, ARC, and Aesthetix are exquisite with Vandersteen and Thiel. Not heard Brinkman. |
