why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable

Pot meet kettle.

"11-16-15: Nonoise
Pot meet kettle."

You have no idea, of course, but you just outsmarted yourself and don't realize it. lol. If anyone can see it, don't tell him. Lets see if he can figure it out on his own.

Pot meet kettle indeed...subjectivity is thy name nonoise!! Seems thoust doth have a forest for the trees issue. Stubbornnes and a limited perspective expressed through antiquated comparative analogies does not a valid argument make.

What are you guys smoking?
Harboring old wounds?
Maybe one too many drinks?
Projection can be cured with therapy.

Zd542, model numbers are kept by educated intelligent worker bees who don't drink kool-aid .

Dave b, it does if you consume kool-aid by the gallon .

@mikelavigne you are missing out on a lot of performance. Audiolabyrinth is telling you right. You got to have a full loom. You can learn from this thread. Lol. Man on man. You got to do better. Lol. I'm busting a gut laughing right now!

I needed to laugh right now and I am. System synergy means nothing. Equipment means nothing. If you ain't got a full loom you are missing out. After my cowboys lost I needed to laugh and the full loom comment has given me the laugh I needed. This is why people think we are cable crazy. You have to have good quality cables but I in no way believe that you get there with cables alone. No way get great gear and good cables and you are there but you can't put new Pirelli tires tires on moms old pacer and race Porsche.

I must admit I have been a bit obtuse, but in all seriousness, happiness can be had all over the place with cables depending on your expectations and experience level. Of course the level of your system being critical. As for me, having had more gear and cables than a person has a right to, I have come to rely on MIT for one reason....they make listening to music more thrilling and lifelike. That being said, I once had a mid level system hooked up with Monster M series cables that sounded utterly fantastic.

Cables are luxury and convenience.
Mega priced ones beautifully designed for looks, but experimenting with sound differences is truly sufficient few bucks instead of $30,000. All I did when I was child is to connect solid core wire or stranded picked up from the electronic lab where I was learning. I wasn't sure how much it was worth(perhaps half-dollar per meter), but I heard differences especially if solid core wire was used.
I can bet lots to find same wire that will sound same or better than $30,000 cable.
They made only for ones that don't know the difference between $3 and $30,000. Many would agree

I'm hoping for some "Trickle Down Economics" on this topic as well.

Map, if that happens write down all the details for it will the first time in human history !

One can hope...

"11-16-15: Schubert
Zd542, model numbers are kept by educated intelligent worker bees who don't drink kool-aid ."

My uncle Vinny told me its the serial numbers you really have to worry about.

This is getting to be cryptic...time to go home now Trelaine!

My relatively cheapo wires by some standards sound fine to me. So maybe something trickled already.

Referring to OP, I always assumed it was a natural consequence of the 'phile in audiophile, where the audio system becomes the object of obsession, love and affection. You give it roses instead of petunias, and if you've got the loot, you must give it an outrageously expensive diamond instead of the $1000 functional thing from Kay, even though most can't tell the difference from cubic zirconium. Love is strange, and practical misses the thrill.

Yup! We are way past sensible. I will admit it. We are willing to pay so much more for small improvements. If it brings you joy. Why not?

No doubt....there is a lot to be achieved with different (and possibly better) choices of components, speakers, cables, etc...not necessarily the more/most expensive of each. The biggest problem I see is generally that someone will come out and say "you aren't really experiencing great sound..." or "you are really missing out if...." (you don't have what I have....) in any given category. That's all horse^&$% frankly...there are many great offerings out there that make people happy. I've never understood that really but then again, many of us don't shill for other factions or manufacturers!

Back to part of my post above....what does it really matter what someone spends their hard-earned money on as long as they are happy???? But then again, there are people in the world who would have us all categorized into nice and convenient little groups and boxes/labelled (akin to Brave New World, Divergent, etc.., etc.., etc..., dictate how we think, what we believe, what we wear, etc.....) based upon their assessment that their view of the world/society is the right and best one...

Calvinj: Ditto on the ROTFLMFAO aspect of the thought that Mike L's room just has to be missing something without a full loom of Tara GME! Guess I'm missing out too since my Kool-Aid glass is friggin' empty(!) , oh well,...guess I'll survive :-)

And agreed,...we are all friggin' nuts anyway!

We are willing to pay so much more for small improvements. If it brings you joy. Why not?

Until the next fix? I guess "joy" is relative and personal, but is it really the reason, or result? Looking back, does your current system bring you any more joy than the high school or college system you used while listening to The Who, Allman Bros., Santana, or whoever, in their prime?

Mitch2, excellent point. It's something I don't think most audiophiles can deal with.

The latest "Stereophile" has Micheal Fremer describing his experience with some of the better/best Tara cables. It seems their top model had to be re-engineered because they weren't an improvement over a previous model. He brings it up to point out that it's not all about price, but actually about what one hears. The reworked cable ultimately, in Fremer's opinion, easily bested the previous model. I don't remember the exact prices but the new cable was north of $40k and the previous model was around $25k. Small but important improvements. There's a sound logic to this way of thinking, but at what point is it aural masturbation?

Mitch2, you have nailed it....I remember listening to the world premier of the new Pink Floyd album, Animals on WYSP in Philadelphia. My aural thrills were courtesy of a Panasonic military style radio with a single 6" speaker! I was enthralled:)

To be very clear hear, Michael had a wide band amplifier, taralabs did not have to rework the Grandmaster interconnect at all, rather, the speaker cable, it is called the Grandmaster sp speaker cable's, yes, the sp cost $3,000.000 more, it's a higher inductance speaker cable to give a wide band amplifier rich lucrative sound,and as I recall, Michael has the Omega Evolution speaker cable's, not the Grandmaster, however, both models have sp version's, happy listening.

Tara lab defense stops the winning basket again. Lol. Enjoy!!! Anyway I'm a little different music wise. I love 80's r&b. My uncle gave me Alexander o'neal first album on vinyl. O'neal is the first solo artist to sell out wymbley stadium six nights in a row. The recording is amazing. Jimmy jam and terry Lewis former members of the funk band the time. Anyway we always forget recording quality in these arguments. Those guys knew how to record. Cables are part of it but recording is too. Taste is important. We all are so different. Just enjoy your system. I did today just like college. I was 11 when I got that album. I still listen to it today. Music is a joy. Enjoy it. Expensive or cheap cables tap your feet bob your head and zone out!

@mikelavigne, you are slacking on your cable game. You got to get better ones. Lol. I'm rolling on the floor again laughing. On a serious note you seem to have an amazing system. Cheers!!! Lol.

Oh, excuse me. I didn't realize this thread is still alive.

It amazes me how such a useless and worthless premise can go on and on, seemingly almost forever.

Someone please define "expensive cable" so I know what we're discussing here.

"...we always forget recording quality in these arguments. [ ] Cables are part of it but recording is too. [ ] Just enjoy your system. I did today just like college. [ ] Music is a joy. Enjoy it. Expensive or cheap cables tap your feet bob your head and zone out!"

Great reminder on 11/18 from Calvinj about what's really important in all this audiophoolery.

With regard to the OP's subject, I'd say for some, because they think cables make a difference (I certainly believe they do) and therefore want the best they are willing to afford. For others, different motives might be at work. In any case, whether their choices make sense to me is completely irrelevant.

Of course you have to know your source material and have had experience with equipment used when evaluating new cables. I'd say over a grand maybe for expensive or around $15K if your me:)

I hold the believe that spending 20%-25% of ones audio budget on cables is justifiable. I have a system that retailed at ~$15K however spent ~$8k on it. I have ~$2k spent on cables.

I do not believe i have expensive cables. My friends who own much lessor expensive systems believe my cables to be so. Someone with a ~$200k system and holding to my allocation % would have ~$50k invested, therefore owning expensive cables (by my assessment). However, I believe ownership of these cables to be easily justified.

I also believe that the $50k cables applied to my system would make an improvement, however not be justified as distributing the money across the system would provide greater improvement.

Whatever the cost of a system, component synergy remains most important. Synergy when matching components toward ones personal taste. Cables that do not possess synergy with ones system, or at a cost to obtaining better synergy elsewhere in ones system, are too expensive.

Calvin,

thank you for the kind words and comments in the 'spirit' of this thread,

@mikelavigne, you are slacking on your cable game. You got to get better ones. Lol. I'm rolling on the floor again laughing. On a serious note you seem to have an amazing system. Cheers!!! Lol.

sorry I'm not watching Audiogon every day so my responses are not always timely. the 'gon' interface keeps me away.

this week I did receive my second set of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution 2 meter RCA's for my Lampizator Golden Gate 'dsd only' dac. again; I am quite amazed with the step up in overall performance I hear. and I've not yet placed them on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker yet.

allow me to explain my 'other' cables a bit, although any attempt at a serious comment on this silly thread is likely a waste of time. i use the new darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp and the NHB-458 mono blocks. darTZeel has their own proprietary interface using BNC connectors called 'zeel'. this interface is superior to RCA or XLR in my experience. so that is what i use between my dart pre and amps, an 8 meter pair of 'zeel' style Evolution Acoustics BNC's. then also between my King Cello tape repro (for my 2 Studer A-820's) i use a 13 meter pair of darTZeel's own BNC's as those tape decks are on the opposite side of the room. the 'zeel' cables can be any length and sound the same.

I've commented earlier in the thread on my speaker cables.

@mikelavigne. Your system looks great. I bet you it sounds great. I'm going to have to hear it one day. Looking at the pictures makes me want to hear it. I know you have spent a lot of time and resources making it sound great. I was just kidding you earlier. Lol. I know you have made great choices in equipment and cabling.

@mesch. Your comments are right on point. No matter what you spend on cables the synergy has to be right. I think you should have decent cabling. Chicken wire is not going to work despite what others may think. Some folks have cable envy!!! Lol!!! It's funny. I think you put good cables on good equipment. I agree that if you can get a better component you do that instead and long as you have reasonable cables. I'm not going to put cheap cabling on great equipment.

Calvin,

thank you for the kind words and comments in the 'spirit' of this thread,

@mikelavigne, you are slacking on your cable game. You got to get better ones. Lol. I'm rolling on the floor again laughing. On a serious note you seem to have an amazing system. Cheers!!! Lol.

sorry I'm not watching Audiogon every day so my responses are not always timely. the 'gon' interface keeps me away.

this week I did receive my second set of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution 2 meter RCA's for my Lampizator Golden Gate 'dsd only' dac. again; I am quite amazed with the step up in overall performance I hear. and I've not yet placed them on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker yet.

allow me to explain my 'other' cables a bit, although any attempt at a serious comment on this silly thread is likely a waste of time. i use the new darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp and the NHB-458 mono blocks. darTZeel has their own proprietary interface using BNC connectors called 'zeel'. this interface is superior to RCA or XLR in my experience. so that is what i use between my dart pre and amps, an 8 meter pair of 'zeel' style Evolution Acoustics BNC's. then also between my King Cello tape repro (for my 2 Studer A-820's) i use a 13 meter pair of darTZeel's own BNC's as those tape decks are on the opposite side of the room. the 'zeel' cables can be any length and sound the same.

I've commented earlier in the thread on my speaker cables.

Hi mikelavigne, did you know Dan D'Agostino invented the cable interface you have?, Dan did this when he was still with krell back in the late 90's, it is called krell cast, my amp has the same interface as your equipment does, I do agree that it is quite good, and that cable length don't matter, however, even this did not beat out the entire taralabs loom I use, the Zero interconnect was entirely in another league over the cable interface system, cheers.

Thanks Calvin. Been following this thread and finally felt the need to respond. I think threads like this are worthy, allowing thoughtful exchange, humor and camaraderie. Just plain fun!

Audiolabyrinth,

Hi mikelavigne, did you know Dan D'Agostino invented the cable interface you have?, Dan did this when he was still with krell back in the late 90's, it is called krell cast

wrong.

the Krell CAST system has nothing to do with the 50ohm BNC interface of the darTZeel 'Zeel' interface. other than it's proprietary to a specific manufacturer.

they are totally different concepts.

and if we are discussing the Zeel interface compared to the Tara Labs, one only need go to page 3 of the August 2012 Review of the darTZeel NHB-458 monoblocks to read this snippet from Michael Fremer comparing what happened when he switched from his Tara Zero interconnects to the (10% as spendy) very very cheap 'Zeel'. snippet below.

At Delétraz's urging, and because I own one of his NHB-18NS preamps, I had substituted his 50 ohm, BNC-terminated, coaxial Zeel interconnect for my TARA Labs Zero. I don't have the space here to discuss transmission-line theory, or why Delétraz believes his Zeel connection is superior to any standard interconnect, especially in terms of eliminating electrical reflections. (Years ago, before he began making amps and preamps, he wrote a paper about this for Stereophile's November 2001 issue—also see this article.) In any case, the relatively inexpensive Zeel cable connection took everything I've described above to an even higher level of clarity, dimensionality, and harmonic and textural purity.

as great as the Tara Grandmaster Evolution I'm using is; if these new dacs had the zeel interface I would have used it instead of buying this crazy spendy cable. I think that the Grandmaster sounds better than the 'zeel' does.....but at 5% of the cost I would not have even thought about it.

Thanks for the input Mike. Your description of the Zeel cables point to the fact that most cables are overpriced, The Tara Labs included. Audiolabyrinth thinks the Tara Labs are the BEST in the world.

Geez, just read this whole thread; what a belly laugh!!! The definition of hyperbole. Some of you sound like the Straw Man in the Wizard of Oz attempting to prove he has a brain. The hypotenuse...is connected to the funny bone... Best, Rob

4orrel,

you are welcome. and I'd agree that few high end cables are high value purchases on an objective basis; Tara included.

the concept of 'overpriced' is a relative term based on a person's priorities.

OTOH based on my experience with the very top level interconnects and now my ownership of 2 sets of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution interconnects that Audiolabyrinth might not be wrong. they could be the best. if there is any 'best'. I've not had Odin 2 or TA Magnum Opus in my system.

4orreal, mmm, you missed the part of Mikelavigne's post that said he liked the Taralabs Grandmaster interconnect better than the cable interface he mentioned, also, taralabs makes a cable for any given system in the world, they have the new rich sounding Grandmaster Evolution SP speaker cable's, and Evolution omega sp speaker cable's for wide band width speakers and amplifiers, also they have ism on board interconnect cable's to suit particular systems that require a warmer sound to rid brightness that some systems have, and I will add they also have the new cx omega speaker cable's that are one lead for each speaker instead of two for each channel, that said, prove to me you own or listened to a better cable than taralabs?, I'm open minded to anything, a better cable for me has not happened in 25 years!

As quoted in one of the worst movies ever (but great for a hearty belly laugh), Plan Nine From Outer Space, the alien states, "you Earth Men are idiots." Of course, in some cases, you can substitute "audiophile" for "Earth Men." Ok, don't get angry, just having some fun at all our expense.😇😀💋🙉. Haha!

"Plan Nine from Outer Space', I haven't seen that movie in twenty years. Great to see it quoted; may have to watch it again.

@mikelavigne. I know you have spent a lot of time and resources on your all out assault of achieving the best sound in your system possible. Enjoy it. I used to look at audio and said I would never spend this much or that much. I heard a raidho system with solutions electronics( and yes it had Tara labs cabling) lol!!! And it was amazing. The sound of that is stuck in my head. A lot of audiophiles will never hear something that mind blowing ever. It changes your perspective. If you enjoy it then do it. I'm pretty sure you have researched you system extensively and you know what you are talking about. You made some great points in your post. System synergy and cost are tricky. I think that those who can't do an all out assault on audio wish they could. Man keep living the the dream and enjoy it. There is not a need. You want it and you enjoy it. Go get the things you want and for those who can't do it. Do the best with what you are willing to spend. I told somebody once I spent 300 on speakers back in the day and they thought I was crazy. Everybody. We all are crazy quit trying to act like you have sanity and everybody else doesn't. There is no voice of reason on this thread. In this hobby there is no reason we all are nutty. Lol. Don't talk just listen.

thanks for the comments Calvin. I have enjoyed my ride.

"Compelled to buy " ...... Hardly.

"Elective to do so".... Absolutely, if

(A) you have the quality build kit with the resolution capabilities to make it work and --ergo-- make it worthwhile.

(B) Here's a litmus test reported by a third party attending reporter who was reporting on the shared observations of the thousands of attendees at the TAVES audio expo in Toronto in Nov 2014.

NORDOST ran its demonstration symposiums and the following is the reporters review in Canadahifi mag.

With reference to (A) above , his conclusions summarize it well

Nordost

"...
I had a chance to sit in on a couple demonstrations in the Nordost room, giving my feet a well deserved break. I’m very familiar with the benefits of high quality cables and use a full Nordost Heimdall 2 loom with my reference two-channel setup. That being said, I always find the Nordost demonstrations to be an “ear-opening” experience. Michael Taylor from Nordost demonstrated the significant sonic benefits of replacing an OEM cable with a Nordost model – in particular 1) a swap of a single USB cable, from OEM to Nordost Blue Heaven ($250/2m), to Heimdall 2 ($500/2m) and; 2) a swap of a single RCA interconnect, from OEM, to Blue Heaven, to Heimdall 2, to Tyr 2 and finally Valhalla 2. Along with convincing the audience in the room that cables DO matter, I’ve now got the bug to upgrade...."

Calvinj,+1
Simply enjoy what you have and for those who can afford better, so be it.

I've kept all my speaker wires since I've started this hobby and the pay off is worth it. Solid core, multi strand, bare and tinned coated, and it pays to be able to swap out and experiment depending on amp and speakers as there's no one solution.

This can help narrow down what you need to perfect your system to your satisfaction, and if necessary, narrow down you choices on where to go next.

Aside from that, I don't know where to go next with this thread.

All the best,
Nonoise

-
Now hear this

Hmmm.

What do you guys (no women here right ? ) think stands out the most in the above ?

a) The hairstyles
b) The fashions being worn
c) How about that nice listening chair
d) the gear (speakers)
e) maybe the placement of the chair in relation to the gear (speakers)
f) how about the price shown
g) something else maybe ...