All true. And yet we still have some of the highest income inequality among developed nations. Life expectancy has gone up for those making over $150,000 and remains stagnant for those who make under that amount. More people are rejecting vaccines. Health care is still viewed as a commodity and not a necessity. Science is being roundly rejected by a large portion of our country. Voodoo and superstition are being forced into some curriculum and claimed to be just as valid as the science being rejected.
It seems that for that for every two forward steps we take, some take one step, if not more, backwards. We are a curious people.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Civilization has advanced over the last few centuries by applying rigorous standards to distinguish between nonsense and truth. And yet..... |
Two of the speakers I used to own are internally wired with Supra Ply. I tried Supra Ply SCs and the sound was okay. Using different SCs sounded better. It's not always the case that what's used inside a speaker is good enough for use as SCs.
All the best,
Nonoise |
With the price comes the promise.
I know there are better cables out there beyond my reach but within my budget there are some mighty fine cables that can do it almost as good as the higher priced ones. This is one area where the "law of diminishing returns" applies.
All the best,
Nonoise |
There are some basics when it comes to cable that can be measured. Then there's everything else that can't or is on the cutting edge of what can be known and demonstrated. I think the question is whether the price of admission to 'what if' is what should be debated.
Some answers in the affirmative can justify a price increase if it's labor intensive or if it requires some exotic metallurgy. Some answers that still remain in doubt should be looked at with a discerning eye (and ear).
Through all the years in audiophile history there have been some killer systems that used some old, tried and trued cables that did the job. Some basic tweaks along the way with coatings, purity, dielectrics, etc are probably all that were and are needed.
Interfaces between amp and speaker should be taken into consideration as well. Beyond that, I"m at a loss to say.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Cables can only do so much. Finding the right pairing for your speakers can be a pain. I've just come to the realization that an old pair of cables I had lying around were perfect for my speakers.
I stated something to that effect earlier on but feel the need to expand a bit on it. My newish speakers took a while to sound right. First, they needed to break in and I was impatient. So tweak away I did with new stands, footers, going through all my old cables, and buying some new ones. I should have been patient.
Not keeping a constant in place made for some maddening results. I thought I had it all dialed in. It was only on a lark when I had some spare time that I dug out some old cables and tried one and it worked like magic.
What I'm trying to say here is that it very well may be that there's not THAT much difference in some well thought out cable design and it's your speakers that you should take a close, hard look at. The potential that lay in my new speakers was dormant until I keyed in on the right cables.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Well, sometimes they work as intended.
Sometimes, not. :-) |
I never thought Picasso was all he was made to be. Art is a very subjective topic that deal with emotions, no reality. Not what I want in a cable. It's an interpretation, a approximation meant to draw in the viewer and leave it to him or her to fill in the rest. Sometimes it's like the Emporer's New Wardrobe. It's gotta be good! Look who made it!
Using a visual analogy, I'd like something more with a photographic angle.
Oh, and there's a world of difference between a socialist, and a democratic socialist. To inject Bernie into this conversation will only heat things up since lines have already been drawn. Stick to better analogies. :-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
|
What are you guys smoking?
Harboring old wounds?
Maybe one too many drinks?
Projection can be cured with therapy. |
Calvinj,+1
Simply enjoy what you have and for those who can afford better, so be it.
I've kept all my speaker wires since I've started this hobby and the pay off is worth it. Solid core, multi strand, bare and tinned coated, and it pays to be able to swap out and experiment depending on amp and speakers as there's no one solution.
This can help narrow down what you need to perfect your system to your satisfaction, and if necessary, narrow down you choices on where to go next.
Aside from that, I don't know where to go next with this thread.
All the best,
Nonoise |
The blank look on his face. |
If one has settled on on a single core, solid cable (which I have) then there's not much that can be done that others have. Get a good enough purity, use bare ends, anneal it a few times, even cryo it, and the only variable left will be which gauge to use along with which sheathing works best for you.
As much as I love the sound of some multi-strands (Supra Ply and Zu Mission) and the lovely, melodic presentation they are capable of, they tend to only capture about 80-85% of the extension and air of solid core. They capture probably best, the sound of a live event, to a point. Some detail is missing along with the air and extension mentioned but if that's all I had on hand, I could happily live with them. But I like the detail, tone, texture, extension, definition and presence of single, solid core. There is no glare, hype or etch, just a much better focus and clarity.
Having said that, I know there must be some brands of stranded out there that close the gap on solid core and all the R&D and material needed to justify the cost but in the context of my system, single, solid core gives a mighty fine, dare I say, excellent, acquittal of what is possible, desirable, and satisfying.
It's all system dependent.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I should have been more precise and say that when purchasing, go for a make that has been annealed, cryo'd, or anything else that can be done to suit your needs. It was implied on my part.
Oh, the nature of these threads.
All the best,
Nonoise |
This has been a rather interesting thread so far as to what floats your boat based on what you've personally experienced but I've noticed there are some who completely ignore that and take anything as an ad hominem attack on what they feel or know, presenting it in a myopically black or white point of view, disregarding the caveats, limits and such. It's almost painful to read.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I have no doubt whatsoever with your findings, it's just the tone.
I actually wish I could afford to try the expensive cables out there. I don't begrudge anyone who can. My point is that there are not two camps here decrying each other nor the need to put the wagons in a circle.
All the best,
Nonoise |
The Walking Dead has met it's match with this thread.
It refuses to die. No matter how you mow them down there's always more of the same not far behind. I can't decide which levels of Dante's hell are reflected here (I'm torn between the 6th and 8th) or maybe there is a 10th level especially reserved for some folk here that combines the two.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Too many here are stating things definitively so as to preclude any debate without the first hand experience to back it up.
I used to be in the camp that simpler was the better way to go and as long as one used a high enough purity with the conductor material, and use the least offensive dielectric, then that was all was needed. And, indeed, there are cables that fall into that category that fill the need without resorting to deep pockets.
It was only when I got some discounted, higher priced cables that I realized I was gravely mistaken in my belief. I had to hear it for myself. Not only was I wrong about the premise regarding construction, I was also wrong on the monetary amount needed to achieve my present state of audio satisfaction.
Considering what I've spent, slowing bleeding my wallet with various cables when I could afford to try something else, I just should have gone for the best I could afford and save money in the long run.
Lesson learned.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Precisely. There are makes that don't tout their cables as much as most. They simply know from experience and feedback that what they do works. They use beta testers. With those makes it's a slow process and it boils down to evolutionary improvements, not some kind of annual hype fest. Those are the ones you should pay attention to. When you unearth them, you find a long gestation process with few models to mark their progress.
The satisfaction you get should be on a level similar to one who commissions a performance. It is what this hobby is all about, isn't it?
Just think of the equipment you buy, the effort you make to mix and match, and the final touches. It's all about the rewards.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Blind A/B testing has been shot full of holes so many times the concept could sell in the dairy section.
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When it comes to taste, we humans use a fraction of our genes available and it's NEVER the same ones used from one person to the next, nor the amount. That accounts for why some have phenomenal tasting abilities and some, like me, don't. There's a lot of overlap but it's never the same.
That accounts for the widely varying abilities of some to be able to nail it each and every time. The same goes for visual acuity, tactile acuity and hearing acuity. We're not all wired the same.
I've seen blind tastings with wine and it all boils down to what suits your tastes. It's an immediate and undeniable process: either you like it or you don't. There's no penalty to it unless it's your job to be able to identify and quantify (those jobs can pay very well).
Visual acuity can be rigorously tested and affirmed due to it's nature. There are standards that cannot be denied. I've yet to see any A/B testing of visual acuity let's say from one brand of TV to another as a means to deny the obvious advantages of having a better picture to watch.
Hearing acuity is a different animal but, again, we're not all wired the same and no amount of parlor tricks can refute what we can or can't hear. This has been debated ad nauseam here and elsewhere. Granted, there are snake oil salesmen out there but there's some honest manufacturers as well.
Enjoy what you like and ignore the naysayers. It's possible they can't hear the difference.
All the best,
Nonoise
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I think no one here can disagree with your first point.
As for the second, substitute low and mid priced cables with expensive and the same can be said. It's kind of a straw man argument.
As for the placebo effect, please. Once we have our systems optimized in our rooms and are very familiar with them, changes can be easily detected. I believe the placebo effect is only relevant when testing is being done, not evaluating in the long run.
As for Mr. Guttenberg, he's entitled to his own opinion and he's not the only reviewer out there with audio cred who believes otherwise, and is more convincing to boot.
The second thing he's quoted about re: cables having a minuscule improvement compared to moving speakers, room changes, etc. can also be said about amps, sources, and the speakers themselves. In other words, a poorly set up room will impart a poorly perceived result no matter the quality of the component. Swapping things out won't net you an improvement.
Also, the cables he has are in the price range of what I now believe to be necessary for a more than decent return on the money provided you can get them for less than retail. The Zu Event speaker cables I got were discounted from the nearly $1K price to just over half that and are outstanding in what they do. I'd never pay that much for cables but realize that at the price I got them for, they unquestionably better the ones I've use that retail in the $200-$400 range, including the Zu Missions, which I got the same way: on sale. With the lessor cables, it was a toss up as the differences were not major, just different, and I could and did go one way and then another. Passing that lower hanging fruit got me into the realm of what's possible.
All the best,
Nonoise
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maplegrovemusic, thanks for the clarification and now, after rereading this thread, I see what you mean.
All the best,
Nonoise |
...the best cable is the cable that changes the signal the least. I couldn't agree more. So it goes to say that despite protests to the contrary, all cables are not made the same and there are makes that get it right or better than most and it's all system dependent. Lots of variables here, so in the end, it's your ears that decide what sounds best in your system and to offer advice on what works in your system shouldn't come under fire from others who don't know or appreciate the particulars. All the best, Nonoise |
If it were to be decided what is expensive, then we'd all hear crickets. I mentioned what my cost considerations were and the cables involved so maybe others can chime in with theirs? Mine work out to be <10% of system costs and I couldn't be happier.
What irks me is what I've already bought but then I've come to realize that as I changed components, I had to change speaker cables to get the right sound.
As for manufacturing costs, all one needs to do is take a look at some of the off brands for sale here and then check out some Asian sites and you'll see the same cables with a 30-50% markup. There's always the middle man to consider.
All the best,
Nonoise
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maplegrovemusic, was that for me?
If so, tell me where I've closed the door and just when I said that no one else's opinion matters. In my last post I'm asking for input.
All the best,
Nonoise |
