Unfortunately I can't offer insight on the sound of the DC10, but do have some thoughts on comparing the quality of parts between the two. I had something on order from Vapor Audio, but decided to cancel because of a new contract at work that will have me working 80+ hour weeks for awhile. And was also very interested in the Berlin since woodturning is a hobby of mine.
The decision to go with Vapor basically came down to parts quality - a RAAL tweeter vs a $15 chinese silk dome, $300 AudioTech woofer vs $70 chinese Aurum Cantus woofer, stacked ply cabinet vs Parts Express MDF cabs with some hardwood glued on. And being an engineer, some of the DC10 specs made no sense - like 98db sensitive? Not possible with that woofer, not even close.
Basically with internet direct you have to take a leap of faith at some point during the purchasing process. I'm far more comfortable doing so with a company that uses top shelf components and construction, provides ample measurements, and that has a design philosophy and specs that make sense.
That said, they both will be at RMAF this year and I look forward to user impressions after the show.
The Cirrus Black is excellent; on my hearing, it does in fact punch way over it's weight price (and size) wise. Lots of info both here and on AC.
While I can not make an accurate comparison on of the 2 models you mentioned, j_fav seems to have done a good analysis of vspor cirrus versus similar products in terms of ate real inputs. I did a similar aalysid and hace an order in on cirrus white. Basically, Ryan at vapor is really knowledgeable and focuses on top quality parts, construction and engineering.
I think the black is in a very different league from the Berlin. More appropriate comparison would be, in my opinion, rhadio c1.1, ridge street audio sasson and dynaudio c1.
Did anybody get the chance to compare these two speakers at RMAF?
Yes, heard them at RMAF. Well, I listened to the new Vapor Arcus, so in the same price league as the Berlin. I also listened to the smaller Briton, and did not know about the Chinese parts. Good to know.
Their sound characteristics are different, so it comes down to what you prefer. I found the sound of the Berlin to be a little more relaxed while the Arcus edged out the Berlin in dynamics. I think I was hearing the amplifiers.
The Cirrus Black that John mentions is 87.5dB, so that affects the amplification. The white is more efficient. The Berlin's were being driven by a 1.8 watt(2A3)Tektron amp, so they must be very efficient.
I thought both speakers sounded excellent for their price point, overtaking more expensive brands.
I had a lot of fun at the show. What I also enjoyed on the opposite ends of the spectrum were the Emerald Physics CS2P ($3,000) and the Rethm Maarga ($9,000). The first, super dynamic and punchy with good soundstage, the other extremely relaxed with amazing depth of sounstage. I think within this price range you're trading natural sound with dynamics to find something that works best for you.
For me and my grey hair, I preferred the Berlin speakers but the parts have me worried.
95SPL not possible??
The Berlin uses a hand fabricated internal resonator an actual innovation unlike most today along with a horn shaped port hand turned heirloom wood where did you study physics? It is possible!
As for the Aurum products do you actually know of a better product?; is it Morel? NOT! shoddy assembly! Seas Not! mechanical symmetry not as good! USA? do you make a driver?? The drivers are picked by sonics they also modify their tweeter and kiln fire their own inductors.
Bashing is fine especially once a real understanding has been obtained.
Rumor from RMAF The president of KONDO in Japan thought the dc10audio / tektron room had the best sound of the entire show. the 2 watt tektron amp drove the speakers with great dynamics and perfect tone mainly piano!! What would the Vapor produce with 2 watts?
If you add up the actual cost of the two speakers I believe the dc10audio product would cost more to manufacture (side note audiotech makes car speakers for fosgate in china vapors port tube which is plastic comes from Parts Express?) dc10 manufactures it own cabinets using the most expensive plywood in the world from Italy on the Instrument and the current 8PS Why they might source a cabinet for the Berlin surly the solid milled tone-wood baffle along with an artisan turned solid tone-wood horn must cost more that the small ply cabinet that Vapor makes for the black (Does Vaper uses a plastic port from Parts Express??) add to this the three innovations and the intellectual property thereof (Vapor has zero innovation just a nice cab with some fair to very good drivers) Bottom line as I've owned both dc10 and vapor products Vapor sounds like a lot of current products out there the dc10audio sounds like alien tech and i bet has some in the industry a little nervous as they should be..innovation is not sticking woofers and tweeters in a nice box we've had that for 50 years already. Last note: I own older dc10audio 8 PS speakers that use Usher 8" drivers just like Wilson audio used to use for years only unlike the Wison's 86 SPL my constantly read 94 SPL.
dc10audio you rock!
Kenneythekey, I would be more worried about service after the sale than the parts used. I have a pair of Vapor Audio Cirrus and from my experience the Berlin could be a better way to go.
Mountain-high, the bashing is typical. I will send you some info.
Mountain-high - Jp1208 is going to tell you that I have numerous alternate sign in usernames and post things bashing other manufacturers using them. It's nothing more than sour grapes. Many many people met Doc77 last weekend in Denver, who I'm sure he will tell you doesn't exist.
Regarding the DC10 speakers, I didn't have a chance to heard them last weekend, but did spend 2-3 trips up and down the freight elevator with the gentleman who was loading them into his room. I thought they looked really well done, and have no doubt they sound nice. We chit chatted for a bit and he seems like a nice fellow, so I have no intention of bashing his work in any way. I would appreciate the same from you. Can you please clarify for me which of my products you've owned?
Mountain-high, I was at RMAF and heard dc10audio system and Vapor system (Cirrus Black and Joule). I'm not sure what your association with Mountain-high is. Your limited number of posts and your immediate bashing of another manufacturer and praising of dc10audio are suspect. I have complete opposite opinion of these two systems than you. Dc10audio was very fatiguing and bright...surprising given tube amplification and vinyl source. I left after 10 minutes of hearing Dc10audio. Although I have had some reservations about Vapor audio given some of the controversial threads, I was very impressed by the sound of the Vapor audio system at RMAF. It was very dynamic, extended in highs without brightness, very good imaging and soundstaging. Most important the system had very good tonality/timbre of vocals and instruments. I thought they had one of the top 5 rooms at RMAF. Given the pricing of the Cirrus and Joule, Vapor audio produces one of best bang for the buck. The Vapor systems came pretty close to one of my other favorite room using the Raidho C1.1, which can run close to $20k for a pair.
OK Vapor, you got me! I have nothing. It must be my imagination when I saw your post here. Remember aswering the question?
No agenda, just asked a question which you could have answered without the 2 paragraphs of accusing me of being a troll. Sorry, but I'm not a troll. I actually have a friend here in the Seattle area who has expressed interest in the Micro Ones many times. I assume you didn't notice, but I also posted very positive thoughts about the sound of the Micro One in the RMAF thread from last year.
My 'allegations' about the drivers you use I don't think are stupid as you say. Why not have a cutaway cabinet at RMAF this year? Or maybe an empty cabinet with bare drivers to display?
Wow! I have no asscociation with anyone, for the record. I must say that I very much enjoyed the Vapor room, and agree with much that Dracule1 said. It is only fascinating on how our ears hear differently. Please, no disrespect or challenge Dracule_1, but to my ears, the dc10audio room was neither fatiguing or bright. The sound was not only upbeat, but tonally joyful and natural! Anyway, I listened to the dc10audio system on Sunday if that has to do with anything.
Only one question, who is Mountain-High?
For way less you can get the Silverline Minuet Supreme + or the Sjofn Clue and get better sound.
The Odyessy Kismet with the TAD drivers was better in the same price range as the Vapor and Berlin.
After all the hype on the Vapor, I was not impressed.
For $4500 you can get pair of Brodmann speakers that sounded superb.
After looking into the amp chosen at RMAF 2 watt tektron for dc10 Berlin it's clear you don't get it ...The amp is important too it tells the speaker who it will be... Play Raidho, Vapor, magico and Berlin with 22 SET watts or 100+ SS and I'll bet you a pair of raidho's the Berlin will kill them on every level..Magico's mini betters Raidho and Berlin kills Magico.. At least the Magico has heroic construction worthy of 28K Raidho is worth 8K the extra 12K is pure cannabis smoke. IMHO
Mountain-high, had a few Redbulls for breakfast did we? Maybe you should try to calm down now.
This is getting weird again boys!
Mountain-high, the high altitude must be getting to you. You do realize saying one speaker kills another is quiet juvenile. I have heard the Magicos on multiple occasions at shows and in one of the finest dealer show room in the US. Never once did I find them to my liking. But I will not say it kills the Raidho or any other speaker, or vice versa. Music is highly subjective and those of us who have been in this hobby for several decades it takes a lot of time and effort to get a system to one's liking or taste.
BTW, how old are you Mountain-high?
A new pr of BerlinIIs sold for 790.00 on ebay,I think another sold for 820.00
which is way below the retail ,i think is 3200.00.Do the Berlins sell for less than
1/3 of retail(4500.00) also? I believe they are Made inUSA too?Sounds like a good
price.I wish I could have been there!Would love to hear all this great gear!Maybe
nice mention of dc10audio here http://www.stereophile.com/content/robyatt-audio%E2%80%99s-analog-haven Powered the Berlin with 2 watts!!!!!
When I walked into the Robyatt Audio room, I discovered that Robin Wyatt had come all the way from New York City to show people what a lovely, airy sound he could get from Jacinthas Heres to Life and other LP selections. The man who recorded that LP used the same stereo Miyajima Kinsui cartridge that Im using for playback, he explained.
Wyatt, as I soon discovered, is an expert on the sound of tables, arms, and cartridges. Amidst 1001 questions from avid attendees, addressed in detail by Wyatt, I gave up trying to listen further to the system. There was no literature, but as best as I can discern from my notes, we were enjoying the show debut of the dc10audio Berlin loudspeakers ($6500/pair), which feature a horn tweeter. The remainder of the system consisted of a Tektron integrated amp ($3950) that features switchable output tubes, Tektron phono stage with Miyajima step-ups, VPI Classic 4 turntable with a custom tonearm wand from Miyajima, and Tel Wire cabling. I regret that there wasnt time to linger until the discussion subsided and Wyatt played more music, because the sound was so good.
I have no stake in this conversation at all, being neither a dc10 nor a Vapor owner, but it's interesting that the comments on that page from people who visited the room at RMAF were very negative, one toward the sound in the room and both toward the aggressive attitude of the person who staffed it.
Your posts are extremely hard to read. Punctuation IS your friend.....
Sorry english not my first language.
rebbi no stake ..really why are you here then spending your free time posting I own a 12K pair of dc10 speakers..You just killing some time...Vapor1
It's my day off, that's all. :-)
Confused, why was Mountain-high's last post signed Vapor1?
Cause he's mountain high? Just be aware that he sells DC10 speakers and it will be clear where he is coming from. I have zero affiliation with Vapor or any other manufacturer.
I thought he was implying that I was secretly Vapor1.
In the spirit of there is no such thing as bad publicity, I suspect that Jp1208 is, in reality, (ta-da) Ryan of Vapor himself :-)
No! Im Spartacus - I, I mean Im Ryan; no! I mean.... Im so confused...
rebbi, jp1208, and vapor 1 same poster.. What's Vapor worried about? Are some innovations cramping his box-o-drivers style???
Two admins over at Audiocircle posted pretty extensive impressions of RMAF this year. Both rated the Vapor Audio very highly, saying it was among the best at the show. They did not mention the DC10 room, so my guess is that they did not visit it. They did seem to visit rooms that were getting good word-of-mouth or sounded very promising in previous years.
Of course, actual impressions from actual attendees are no match for an unsubstantiated rumor that the head of Kondo was smitten by the DC10audio room.
This is from stereophile blog sound like vaporware to me.
Other Speaker Brands Bashing..... dc10audio??
Submitted by bachMan on October 29, 2012 - 8:51am.
It seems some in the industry are a little worried about this tiny Company dc10audio as aliases known to works for two other brands both showing on the same floor 4th floor as dc10audio continue to Bash the company on agon and here. We've heard from the experts that the room was one of the best at the entire show and even greats in the amplifacation business such as Kondo and Rogue said it was one of the best rooms.....Oh yeah, these guys don't make speakers! Are the other brands worried that dc10 is doing something new? Grow up boys take a chance and invent something...dc10audio did and guess what it works VERY WELL!
It all started long ago when J_fav (Vapor??) went bashing about Chinese drivers and parts express cabinets and now it is just confusion and mayhem!
It's my day off, that's all. :-)
Yes, let's clear up whether Mountain-high sells DC10 speakers. I certainly see him endorse these speakers whenever the opportunity presents itself.
Not that A'gon lacks for fanboys of this or that component, but if Mountain-high is a dealer who is not disclosing this financial interest, it is certainly a problem.
As I posted earlier I owned dc10 8PS loudspeakers for nearly 3 years now and am a big fan I've bought and resold Berlin and Berlin mini B stock on Audiogon and currently have a new pair for sale on Audiogon but I am not a dealer I sell 100's of audio equipment on ebay and Audiogon I already said that before on the thread.
I did not make it to RMAF this year but you bet I will next year!
Mountain-high has admitted he gets B stock from DC10 and re-sells them. Also, the user who seems to be the owner(?) of DC10 told Mountain-high to knock it off with all this nonsense in the other thread.
Thanks for clearing that up Vortrex.
Here is hoping that Mountain-high discloses his affiliation with DC10 in all future posts endorsing these speakers.
I am posting because I am excited about this product... I've been buying and collecting audio gear for over 40+ years. Has anyone actually look into their patents and significance of the horn ported tweeter or the toned wood resonator. These are unique and a breath of fresh air in a world of the same stuff over and over again.
Talk about some butt ugly speakers. Mt High I hope your hearing is better than your taste in looks. Those speakers remind me of the butt ugly Salk Ht somethings.Come onnn mann!
What was that old saw about not being able to tell the players without a scorecard? LOL!!
You are 90% incorrect. The tweeter used in the current Berlin is the top Scanspeak dome that is modified in house.
Do you actually want to critique the bass unit? It is in our opinion if not the very best 7" driver on the market in the top 3 for sure.
We've used Asian cabinet modules in the past for our less expensive models and also produce our own cabinets in the top models in-fact our cabinet production is very similar to Sonus Faber.
Sorry if you've lost some sales to us :)