Vandersteen Treo vs 3A Sig as upgrade


I had my local dealer hook up a pair of Treos to demo them and left with a very mixed impression. I like the overall sound. They have a smoother, more refined and sophisticated midrange that the 3A Sigs can't match. I want that. But the bass was less defined and the top end was bright. The sibilance was very exaggerated - this was with CD. Is this the character of the Treo? Thanks!
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Did you happen to look the speakers over and how they were set up? The 3A's have contour controls on the back of the xovers. Given your description of the sound, it sounds like someone fooled with them. I'm assuming that you heard both speakers in the exact same room with the exact same system, and the back tilt was properly set. Neither speaker should sound rolled off on top. If you're really serious about buying these speakers, this is something you definitely want to find out before you make a decision.
Zd542 -

I have owned the 3A's since 1995 and had them upgraded to Sigs couple of years ago. I'd say I'm pretty familiar with them. I'm asking about the Treo having a hot top end resulting in exaggerated sibilance. It was very apparent in the demo. And somewhat boomy bass as well.
I have no idea that you already own them. Your post makes it sound like you had them side by side. Since you didn't, my first post applies anyway.

"I'm assuming that you heard both speakers in the exact same room with the exact same system, and the back tilt was properly set. Neither speaker should sound rolled off on top."

If you want an answer that you can use, anyone that sees this post will ask you to list your entire system and some general info on your listening room, as well as the dealers system and his room.
((will ask you to list your entire system and some general info on your listening room, as well as the dealers system and his room.))

Were there any speakers other than Treo's in the listening room in the dealers showroom.?

Were the dealers electronics similar to yours??
What was the warm up time of the gear?
Cheers JohnnyR
I'm asking about the character of the Treo from folks with experience. What are the Treos like and is it fair to say that they are hot on top? Loose on the bottom? Simple questions No need to second guess or read between the lines or "fix my system" over the internet, like that's even possible without an audition in my room with my gear. Please tell me about the Treos, if you can. Thanks.
"No need to second guess or read between the lines or "fix my system" over the internet, like that's even possible without an audition in my room with my gear. Please tell me about the Treos, if you can. Thanks."

John from Audio Connection is considered to be the best Vandersteen person there is, aside from Vandersteen himself. He can give you better advice over the internet than most dealers can do in their stores. I won't tell you what to do, but I think you should at least listen to what he has to say.
I had Vandy 3A's for a number of years.Then bought new 3A Sigs which I've had for five years now.I've heard the Treos twice at two different dealers, set up properly at both with reference level electronics at both.My opinion mirrors yours.I definately felt the Treos were hotter / brighter on top. Bass not in the same ball park as the 3A's.Don't seem to have that signature Vandersteen family sound.Cost alot more money than the 3's but in my opinion,aren't a better speaker at all.I'd like to see Vandersteen incorporate a good ribbon tweeter into their designs and drop the metel dome. I'd like to also see a 3A Signature Wood version. Maybe some day.
I've never heard the Treos but I can't even imagine what you describe is attributable to the intrinsic character of the speaker, certainly not ANY Vandersteen speaker in the numerous set-ups I've heard. If this were the case it would have been noted by others. If I were you, I would certainly respond to the questions asked by Johnny of Audio Connection. I'm SURE he could help narrow down what was possibly causing what you heard.
Wlutke ... John Rutan of Audio Connection, Verona, NJ, may know more about Vandies than Richard V himself ... (just kidding). I've worked with John on numerous occasions on other audio matters. He's a top drawer guy.

I'm sure Johnny R would be happy to take a direct call from you and help you out.

Cheers,

BIF

P.S. -- Although I am reluctant to armchair diagnose the issue raised by the OP, IMO, even with supposedly proper speaker set up, I wonder out loud if room issues adversely affected the OP's audition experience. Check out the "DEQX game changer" thread. There over 400 posts about the DEQX. My DEQX PreMATE tamed my time incoherent speakers and my really crummy room.

Perfect?? No. Better?? Yes.

IMO, spending big bucks on speakers is a waste of money if the room sucks ... kinda' like putting lipstick on a pig. The DEQX can help if the room is bad.

P.S.S. to Johnny R -- any comments on the new ARC SE amps? ARC just upgraded my Ref 150 to SE grade. Very significant improvement. Love those KT-150s ... they look like pickles.
I compared both speakers in my room using an Aesthetix Atlas, ARC REF 3 and a Grace M905 DAC using a Macmini running Pure Music. I am assuming you listened to the non CT version of the Treo in my comments. (I did find the CT version a little bright in later listening to that speaker in a dealership compared to the non CT version after both were set up properly.)
I did not find the Treo any brighter than the 3a Sig overall. The Treo has a little lighter balance which accounts for it sounding a little more open. The 3A Sig definitely has a better bottom and a bigger sound. I didn't come to the same conclusion about the Treo midrange. I thought the 3A Sig sounded every bit as smooth and refined, just not quite as open.
The 3a Sig has undergone some changes in the last year or so with the addition of the same midrange as the Treo (woven mid) and uses the same tweeter. The bass was tightened up also. The newer 3a Sigs do not sound the same as the previous model.
I ultimately bought the 3A Sig for it's better bass and bigger sound. I can live without the some what better attributes of the Treo being slightly more open.
Lastly, it has been my experience that dealers do not set the speakers up properly for demo. If they don't measure your ear height and sitting distance, there is NO way they are set up correctly. Vandersteen's certainly are not a sit and listen speaker!
OK so far no responses from any owners or any pertinent info on the character of speakers themselves from any knowledgeable source or anyone who has even heard them. What is the character of the speakers? Are the speakers hot on top? Are they somewhat loose on the bottom? Pretty basic stuff here. No need to make it complicated.
"What is the character of the speakers?"

The simple answer is, I the speakers are neutral. Not hot or rolled off. What you can do with this information, I have no idea. I heard the Trios in a different room, with different electronics and different music than you. You also need to consider my personal taste in equipment, my level of listening experience and my definitions of subjective qualities. If you take all of those things into consideration, you should be OK.
((What is the character of the speakers?))

Neutral honest messenger, with proper set up.
((Are the speakers hot on top?))
Not at all.
((Are they somewhat loose on the bottom?))
No,

((( OK so far no responses from any owners or any pertinent info on the character of speakers themselves from any knowledgeable source )))
Could it be that most Treo owners are too busy, probably listening the the Grateful Dead or Schumann.

Check this out if you are in a hurry start at 29 Min in
This is why you want Carbon's properly set up with No Feedback amps. Take a look at Bernstein's face loving the moment. Talk about a well oiled machine.
JohnnyR
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=shuman+rostapovitch&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
(((Could it be that most Treo owners are too busy, probably listening the the Grateful Dead or Schumann.)))

Nice quip from a Vandersteen dealer.

I too hope an owner or two will chime in with some honest, unbiased info on what it's like living with the Treo. Especially someone who has upgraded from a 3A Sig who could describe the differences in set up, sound and caveats between the two.

Zd452 - Alright, you did not hear what I heard and I will take that into account.

Wlutke ... I listened to a pair of Treos several years ago. The speakers were driven by an ARC VS-115 amp. IMO, even though the Treos were presumably set up properly, I was underwhelmed by their performance. I compared the Treos to a pair of Paradigm Tributes. IMO, the Tributes were considerably better sounding.

You might say that my reactions about the Treo were unfavorable. Well take what I just wrote with a grain of salt. About 9 months ago, I bought a DEQX PreMATE. It made a big deal difference in sound performance because it tamed my speakers and room.

So ... what I am saying is that even if your dealer followed Vandersteen's set up instructions to a tee, if his room was crummy, the Treo demo might not have done the speakers justice.

In my case, I suspect that my initial reactions might have been colored by poor room conditions. At this point, I'll never know for sure.

Just sayin'.
"Lastly, it has been my experience that dealers do not set the speakers up properly for demo. If they don't measure your ear height and sitting distance, there is NO way they are set up correctly."

The exception being the dealer the OP just insulted that's not his local dealer, and won't be making any money off him. Pat him on the back and tell him what he wants to hear.
I just recently purchased a pair of Vandy Treo CT's and in the process of breaking them in. I have about 100 hours on them. Right out of the box with no break in and less than proper set up, they did sound a little hard and harsh in the upper mids. But as I've been getting them broke in and with proper set-up from Richard Vandersteen the sound has improved significantly. Back tilt and toe-in seem to be extremely important to these speakers. With the correct placement and tilt, along with more break in time they are improving each day. I found these speakers not very forgiving toward mediocre recordings. If the recording has a significant amount of upper midrange hash you will hear it with the Treos. These speakers will not hide or sugar coat a poor recording. When the record is of good quality and lacks some of the over processing used now a days, I get some of the best sound I ever heard from my system. I have listened to 3A sigs, but did not like their lack of midrange resolution and dynamics. In fairness to the 3A's, this was a few years back and may not be current production. For reference, I'm using a Rogue Pharaoh integrated hybrid amp. Cambridge 851-C cd player, Well-Tempered Labs Amadeus Mk. II turntable, Soundsmith cartridge. Using MIT speaker cable for now, but my dealer says I should get these out of my system as soon as possible. Room is 15 1/2 feet long, 11 1/2 feet wide, vaulted ceiling with a balance of absorbing and reflecting surfaces. Hope this might be of some help to the OP. Cheers!
Mr m -

Thank you for the thoughtful and even handed review. Well done! Let us know how the bass breaks in.
OK Wlutke you might want to PM Ctsooner22, who owns the Treos or check past threads IF you want to get further insight from owner's of these speakers, some may not be posting or viewing. I do think you are being somewhat dismissive of a dealer that is highly regarded for his set-up acumen by owner's of Vandersteen speakers and you just MIGHT want to listen to him along with hearing from owners. There are actually some manufacturers and dealers that really do want to help as well as offer sound advice along with promoting their business, nothing wrong with that. It seems that you didn't have a really good experience with your audition to me, a less than helpful/knowledgable dealer maybe that couldn't answer questions to your satisfaction at the time? Or did you ask him?
CT here. Yes, I own and LOVE my Treo's. I have the ceramic tweeter and not even the CT version (much smoother and detailed).

First off, I use Johnny Rutan and ONLY Johnny Rutan when making decisions. I drive 3 hours to his place to get my gear. I've bought few items used from close friends whom I trust or from the internet. Johnny StiLL takes the time to help me out in decisions and I feel guilty not purchasing from him, lmao....He's THAT good and I've dealt with the top dealers in the world since 1969. That's for the OP who doesn't know me from Adam.

As for the Treo's...please come back and post what your system is and the set up as Johnny has asked. He is offering you his FREE advise, because he gives a darn. BTW, he sells Proacs, B&W's and many other speakers so he gets it.

My room can be a bit hot and the bass can be flabby if not set up properly. I have the Ayre AX 5 Twenty, but ran the Treo's originally with the Ayre AX7e. I have a Basis TT set up with a Benz MC cart and Rhea phono stage. I use the Empirical Audio OSDE/SE fully loaded for digital and it's served through a Mac Mini with a separate linear power supply that was hot rodded from the owner of Empirical Audio for his shows. I run it all through a Synergistic Research Power Cell 10 MK II Tesla power cord.

The room is a 15X20 loft with a 43" wall behind my system. I'm more sensitive to grating highs than most are. I don't like most speakers that get great marks or are very expensive. I also hear extension and need that in a system. I also need deep and tuneful bass. I hate flabby bass and will trade quantity for quality any day of the week. I also need them to disappear.

I was a Proac guy for years and dealt with a tilted top end but they disappeared and had tight and low bass. The Treo's are in a different league from any speaker I've heard under 10k. I only have the ceramic tweeters and fed decent material they are natural. Listen to piano properly recorded and you hear it in your room. I don't hear the speakers and most others who listen say the same thing. Bass is fairly deep (bass is the most expensive part of things and I have a system that delivers it in spades). Once I upgrade the amp, my speakers just went along for the ride. They just keep rising to the occasion. I personally don't like digital. I have a ton and play high rez only for now, but when you put on the Basis TT, the system just relaxes and you get to fall in love with it all over again.

I no way have I ever heard the Treo's or any of the Vandy speakers sound like you say. The 3a Sigs bass is deeper than the Treo's, but I doubt you even heard music that was recorded that low unless they had you listen to pipe organ music. The Treo's bass is much better quality and that's why they cost so much more (remember I said bass is where the cost of most systems is). The Treo's go pretty darn low though. I've heard pipe organ music that probably is going around 30 Hz possibly and the sound was there. Furniture was vibrating due to the bass but you heard every note separately. They also play complex music extremely well. When you are listening to voices and tricky guitar along with thumping bass, it's clear. There isn't any congestion due to the design of the speaker. There are no extra waves of music smearing what you hear. Most folks need to listen to these speakers a few times to fully understand the emotion they are conveying, because they are used to listening to hi fi speakers that are often tipped up a db or two. Heck it's a known fact that many of the major name speaker designers do this. I even read this in a review of a well known high end speaker when browsing yesterday.

Since you took the time to post, please let use all know the answers to Johnny's questions so that you can get some professional help and be happy with your purchase. Heck, even Johnny's system gets moved a bit without him knowing. Some demo's aren't perfect and he'll figure it out and fix it. Always simple fixes too, but even not set up perfectly, they sound great and I've never heard them hot, but I've also never fed them digital that often times is searing hot. JMHO...feel free to PM me if you want to talk about this on the phone. Always open. Let's get you set up and happy.
Ctsooner -

I hear you. I agree that set up and room are major players. HOWEVER, I prefer to keep this thread about the Treos, not my particular situation, and I have made that quite clear. I enjoy reading other's comments and experiences considering the Treos in THEIR situation - as do other readers, or at least I would hope so. I would list my system here but somebody would ,for sure, take the ball and run with it, insisting that my set up was in dire need of an overhaul. It is not. Look up my old posts if you're curious. It's listed there.
Or just look here at the last post:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1396957550&openusid&zzWlutke&4&5#Wlutke
"07-12-15: Wlutke
Ctsooner -

I hear you. I agree that set up and room are major players. HOWEVER, I prefer to keep this thread about the Treos, not my particular situation, and I have made that quite clear. I enjoy reading other's comments and experiences considering the Treos in THEIR situation - as do other readers, or at least I would hope so. I would list my system here but somebody would ,for sure, take the ball and run with it, insisting that my set up was in dire need of an overhaul. It is not. Look up my old posts if you're curious. It's listed there."

You're cutting your nose off to spite your face here. Can you tell someone how to judge a pair of speakers by themselves? Its impossible. You have no choice but to listen to a pair of speakers as part of a system, in a specific room. And because of that, you're turning away really good advice. This isn't Best Buy. If you want a crappy, simple answer, then by all means go there. They hand them out all day. The real simple answer is that you have a bunch of very revealing components that need to be deal with by someone other than a novice. Most people can figure this out, but for some reason, you can't. For what its worth, I looked at your system. Why you wouldn't reveal it is a complete mystery since its all high quality stuff that matches up well with Vandersteen. Instead of arguing with everyone, you could have made some progress. Good luck with your system.
Zd542 -

Thanks for the opinion. Everybody's got one.
I do not own Treo
Have heard them a few times but not for a serious listen
I trust and believe in Richard, yes I am biased
had 3aSIG for a decade
Having a speaker let alone system that long can lead to a strong belief that is what it SHOULD sound like..
Went thru some soul searching to get 5a to sound more like 3a SIG ..but that was my journey.
Bless you on yours.
Your associated equip is stellar and in many cases hews to much of what MANY Vandy dealers would feel sounds great w Steens..

BTW Johhny I have Van Morrisons Blue Note release What's wrong with this picture on..yum !
Ok, I'm going to cut and paste your system and let's take if from there as you have some good bones. This thread is still about Treo's still. I've heard Treo's with electronics that are considered HOT...very hot on the upper end and they still didn't sound out of control hot like most others do with this particular amp. I couldn't listen for more than an album, but that was better than getting up after the first cut or two (Ask Johnny, I can't handle unnatural highs at all).

Let's do this as you asked for help and that's what I'd love to do for you:

I have an Aries 3 turntable with JMW 10.5i tonearm.
I bought it new 7-8 years back.

I would like to upgrade the tonearm any suggestions ?
I use a Dynavector XX-2 Cartridge and I'll spend up to $3500 new or used.

I like the sound with the 10.5i but will upgrading the tonearm improve the sound ?

As time goes on I listen to more vinyl , almost every night.
Would it be better to purchase a used turntable with tonearm for $6000 ?

Thanks any input appreciated.

First off you have a fine TT and arm. Let's spend the money where it's best spent and that's on other components and cables. I still wonder what your electronics are. If you'd PM me or just post it here, that would help a great deal. The one thing about VPI is that they are pretty neutral sounding and that arm is a good arm. It's not a Rega (I find them very thin personally).

The Treo's need to be driven by an amp with some wallop behind them as do most speakers. Even highly efficient speakers need a lot of current (not watts necessarily). You say you want bass, you have to make sure your electronics can handle that.

Again, I'm sure you have decent electronics and if you need to change them out, I'm sure that's very easy. Heck, even a high powered NAD separate amp and pre amp can match well with Treo's. I've heard them together and you'd be SHOCKED as how good they sound. I'm very very serious hear folks. You don't need to spend an arm and a leg to get musical, emotional sound from these Treo's, however the better you get, the better they sound. To me, that's a very revealing and neutral speaker. Let's get you on track here and happy.
Ctsooner -

That is not my system or question. I'm not the OP.
Check my last response to the thread.

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1396957550&openusid&zzWlutke&4&5
Oh, ok, that makes more sense, Sorry...:)
Nice set up if you ask me. I would make one recommendation for your system and that's to look into a cable that is more neutral like Audioquest or something like that. I made the switch and am so happy that I did. What cable did the dealer have on the VAndy system when he played them for you? I have found how important cables are the better my system gets. We all know that and we all talk about it, but we all too often we don't put cables into our system and listen. I did that. I bought AQ from Johnny (was all MIT for years and years with some Kimber thrown in) when I got my Treo's and I had some MIT top of the line stuff. I was in shock when I went back and forth. I also noticed that my MIT wasn't a bi wire and that made a HUGE difference also. I agree with Richard in that you must use a bi wire run of cable. Even using two lesser cables rather than one expensive cable makes a big difference, or at least it did in my own system. I also know that Richard really does use the AQ cables in his speakers. You can see this in his crossovers for the Quatro on up. There is a reason for this. I won't go into the physics involved, but when you have a first order, phase and time correct speaker the cables will make a huge difference. Possibly more so than other speakers. That's something that folks don't realize. I had a great conversation with AJ Conte of Basis about cables and passing phase and time correct signals. I understood about 10% of what he said, but man did it make sense, lol. I have heard the same thing from a couple of folks I had the pleasure meeting with my former dealer in RI (no names but think MIT, Kimber and Transparent after their nasty break with MIT). Not all cables, regardless of price or what dealers want to tell us, will pass the signals properly. Not saying Nordost doesn't at all, but I'm saying that AQ or even Basis cables will get you where you want to be. As long as you are getting one of the battery pack cables you are doing to be fine. The newest AQ cables for the price are KILLER I personally feel.

I'm going to sell my Treo's as I want to move up to the Quatro. Those are the sweet spot in the Vandy line for me as I want to tune the bass to my room. If you don't need to tune it to your room and you are happy with quality bass to the low 30's, then the Treo is killer and a world beater for the cost. There is a reason that you don't find many used Treo's on the market nd when you do, it's because we are moving up in the Vandy line. At least Richard helps us protect our investments, lol.
Ctsooner -

The new 2 series Nordost has taken a ridiculously large sonic leap and does not even resemble the thin sounding Nordost of the past. You should take a listen. The Satori Shotgun is a true shotgun (that means double run). You should research that as well. If the Treo is not good enough for you then the Quatro will not help. The reason you are unhappy is your system synergy. Get new cables and perhaps an amp. Or have Richard Vandersteen set up your speaker again. They may have moved. Of course you realize I am saying this all tongue-in-cheek to make a point. You didn't ask for, need or particularly like my ignorant dissing of your system, did you? Of course not. Keeping the thread about the Treos avoided all the second guessing, imaginary problems with my gear, my imaginary discontentment with same, and the resultant imaginary cures. That is why I didn't want to post my system specifics. I realize you mean well. No hard feelings.
Interesting discussions guys, I have auditioned the Treo & Quattro (non-CT upgraded) and was not impressed. The same can be said for the Aeriel 7t and 6t models. Perhaps it was an improper set-up or an improper acoustically damped room, or both. These are not bad speakers per se, they are not outstanding, either. There is better money to be spent on better loudspeakers IMO. Keep me posted and Happy Listening!
Tomic601 =

You make a good point. I'll go back for another demo with an open mind and a battle plan. I'll bring my own music, have them set up the speakers properly and use something better than the single run Kimber 8TC wire in a split HI/LO configuration. Stay tuned..
That's the way !
Back in the day..thirty years ago I would have, could have just sent you home with a pair to play with for extended weekend....that is IMO part of the value a brick and mortar dlr can deliver....
Btw my old dog AQ type 6 is in a TRUE shotgun configuration also. :-)
Jafant. Give us some examples. Anyone can make the statement you just made....
Wlutke, honestly, your response didn't bother me at all and that was even before I read the tongue in cheek part. You made the assumption that it would I guess, lol. I never take criticism on boards personally as I only know a few folks here personally. Here is the only think I posted about the Nordost brand:
Not saying Nordost doesn't at all, but I'm saying that AQ or even Basis cables will get you where you want to be.

I've heard all the Nordost cable including the series two from Odin to Heimdall. Mostly on Wilson speakers and I am not a Wilson fan at all, so that's part of it. I've had series two in my system (the Valhalla 2). It took a bit of the emotion away for my ear. That said, it was a very detailed set of cables and sounded good. I just prefer the AQ cables with Ayre and Vandy's. My system right now is ruthlessly revealing while still being totally non fatiguing. Your Nordost cables will never be fatiguing on the Vandys, that's a given. We all like different sound and that's why we keep all these brands in business. I have friends who use all types of cables with Vandy's and one of them is a close friend. He was using a brand other than AQ in his system and he complained that he didn't love the upper midrange. He brought two separate (true bi wire) pair of AQ Oak in 8' runs. He immediately switched over to all AQ and said he loves the system. I know people who don't like AQ cables and swear by MIT or Transparent. I've heard the Transparent on those same Wilsons and not liked them at all. Again, it may be the speakers, but I felt exhausted after an hour of listening.

In the end they are all great in your system as long as you love them. I just tend to try new things when I make a change in the system. That's how I switch from Proac's to Vandersteen. I wasn't even going to listen to them until Johnny asked me to after I auditioned some Proac's....

Jafant, we'd all like to hear your examples.....What didn't impress you enough that you make this same statement on any Vandersteen thread? I'm sure that you can just make a list of speakers and post, but at least that would be better than a hit and run, lol. j/k
Wlutke,
Serious questions. Forget everything else in either of our systems. This probably isn't about the components, but the set up of them. First off did you bring your own music to listen to? If so, do you know the recordings really well? Some recordings are loved by all, but sometimes not recorded the best. That's probably not it, but I thought I'd thow it out there.

After speaking with someone who knows Vandy's as good as anyone, there is a possibility that the tilt wasn't enough. If the high energy hits before the mids and bass, then you will experience exactly what you said you did. That would also go for the bass problems. I have a feeling that the speaker was knocked out of whack somehow. If not that, then I need to ask, were you standing up listening? I should have thought of that right away and I'm sorry I didn't. That too will make the speaker sound tilted up a bit.

I hope you come back to this thread to let me know. The bottom line is that no cable or component will be so dramatic as to make the speakers sound so different than they should sound. Some components are just better than others. When talking about cables in my system or even other components, they are usually shade subtle differences unless I'm upgrading from an Ayre AX7e to the AX5 Twenty. The cost better give me that type of upgrade and oomph....
"That would also go for the bass problems. I have a feeling that the speaker was knocked out of whack somehow."

There's a really good chance that the dealer wired the bass speaker cables out of phase with each other. They do it all the time.
Z, that could easily be it also. Just so many reasons many speakers don't sound the way they should and that's for many brands. Funny as folks talk about how difficult setting up a set of speakers can be, but if you have a great dealer, they'll come over to do it or be able to walk you through it. I"m actually going to purchase a laser so that I can easily set up the tilt of my Treo's in case they get moved. It's just so easy to do by lining up the dot's on the back wall and using a tape measure to measure the tweeters from your ears If I recall correctly. Johnny set mine up and it only took about ten minutes and most of that was putting the spikes on, lol. If he can do it in ten, then I bet I can learn to do it in 20 ;)......I do hope that the OP comes back to the thread as I didn't like how I answered him originally and I'm sorry for that. This thread is a good one and I tend to keep it that way. He taught me a great lesson about jumping to conclusions that most of us do about cables. I was taught a great lesson last night ;).
"I do hope that the OP comes back to the thread as I didn't like how I answered him originally and I'm sorry for that. This thread is a good one and I tend to keep it that way. He taught me a great lesson about jumping to conclusions that most of us do about cables. I was taught a great lesson last night ;).

Even if you did misread the post, you still have nothing to apologize for. Your intent was to give good advice and you shouldn't be made to feel like you did something wrong. The OP will just have to get over it.
Thanks Z, I get that, but it's also not easy to communicate via net boards. I"m very well known on Oklahoma Sooner internet sports boards and I've been doing it since 97 or so and I often am taken the wrong way. Bottom line is that he wants good advice and if he reads my last post, that probably is the real reason for what he heard.
I just got back from another demo of the Treos at a different dealer. The first demo that I mentioned in my OP was sort of slapped together by my local dealer. The speakers were walked into an approximate triangle, Kinber 8TC hooked up as a bi-wire and tied to an integrated tube amp of unknown power rating - "I don't know". Hmmm. Today was much different - with different results. I had emailed Randy at Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica that I might be stopping by about noon the next day (today) and that I was interested in the Treos. When I arrived there they were, already set up, wired up and the gear warmed up with Diana Krall on a Basis/Lyra Atlas combo, ARC REF2 phono and Ref5 (SE ?, I didn't notice), Audio quest IC's and SC and ARC REF 150's I believe. Randy was knowledgeable, friendly and accommodating. I give him five out of five stars.
So how many stars did the Treo earn in this new configuration? Hint: not 5. True, the top end sizzle was completely absent, as in gone. Not tipped up at all. Star for the Treo.
The midrange was a treat. Clean, clear and focussed like my 3A Sigs just can't by comparison. Female vocals were really well done. Piano, check. imaging, check. Three more stars for the Treo.
The bass. The bass (shakes head) - A deal killer for me. Sometimes ok, sometimes not. But when it was not, it could be really distracting. Thump, Thump. Definitely do a demo with your music preference before making a decision because YMMV. Add no stars.
Now I'm stepping aside and let the thread live or die on its own. I've got my answer. Thanks to all you who participated. It's been a blast!
Interesting. Bass is the most expensive part of the spectrum to get right. Teh Quatro's give you that last bit of deep, tuneful bass, but honestly I have had no problems getting great bass from mine as long as the recordings gave it to me. I have found that some of my recordings, both vinyl and Digital haven't always been up to snuff. At least you got to hear them at Randy's. What did he say about the bass?
Ctsooner -

I made a vague comment to Randy about the bass, not specific as to the quality or the quantity. His response was that the Treo was designed to be used up against a wall to reinforce the bass, and that they would have a bigger sound. They were out from the wall a few feet by necessity - he has a ton of excellent gear in a very modest size room. What I did not ask him to specifically address was the *quality* of the bass. I found the bass was ok at adding "meat to the bones" of say a vocalist or piano. But when called upon to be the driving instrumental force it too often resulted in an abbreviated thud that was neither tight nor tuneful. I'm certainly no expert but I attribute this to a small driver in a small ported cabinet. I left my vinyl at home (motorcycle, 300 mile round trip) and brought along a well recorded CD with appropriate tracks - Putumayo "Blues Lounge". Some tracks ok, some not, played on an Ayre multi format player at a very moderate volume, one that allowed conversation without a raising of voice.
My 40 minute snapshot of the Treos can only be taken for what it is - a first impression. Anyone interested in them should take a serious listen for themselves. I'm sure you have gotten yours all sorted out to your satisfaction. They are not for me, however.
One man's bass is another man's mud....Which is ok, as everyone's taste in music and it's reproduction varies. I feel the Treos mid to upper bass range very tuneful. The bottom octave has just a trace of drama. But then again, I like that too. I would like to listen to my Treos with a couple of Vandy subs, as this would be a natural up grade progression for me. I think that might alleviate some of the bass issues Wlutke talked about. That is if he would be so inclined to check it out.
Mr-m said:

"I would like to listen to my Treos with a couple of Vandy subs ... I think that might alleviate some of the bass issues Wlutke talked about. That is if he would be so inclined to check it out. "

I'm 6 1/2 hour round trip from checking that out for you. Could you possibly take it upon yourself to confirm?
I have been using the Treos with a Vandy sub for over a year now. It sounds like all of the things you were missing in the Treo auditions could be corrected with a sub or 2.
LOL..W, if you liked everything but the bass wasn't low enough, then you could easily get two Vandy subs to pair with the Treo's. YES, this WILL give you sub terrainian bass and of high quality. It will also help the Treo's a bit, but it will really be a nice thing for your amp as it won't have to work as hard, plus the way Richard does the bass amps, they will have the same sound signature of your amp. That's the part I personally like the best.

Again, you are giving them a try. I just don't know of a lot of speakers in this class that will give you full range sound with the subtle qualities that make properly set up Vandy's special. as we all know, getting great bass does cost a few dollars. Please keep us posted on your quest. The great dealers like Randy, Bruce in SD and Johnny in NJ all have other speakers they offer to folks who don't love a specific brand. You should also call Richard. I promise you that he'll be up front and brutally honest about how to get the most bass out of Treo's and he'll be the one who can tell you what you would get with a pair of his subs. Good luck and keep us posted please
I don't think it's a question of bass quantity, but of quality. If the OP doesn't care for this aspect, well that's that. No matter how much you wish it so, not everyone is going to like the Treos.

Shakey
Thanks for your response Shakey. If you read my resonses in this thread you know that I have said it may not be for him, so not sure where you get your post from. He said that it was both quality and quantity, so your statement doen't make sense to me. Someone mentioned using Vandy subs and I finished my post with a response to the question that was asked. Since you have proven in any thread on Vandy's that you don't know much about them, I'll say it again, using the subs with them allows them to play in the 20's with authority and frees up the Treo's to do what they do best. I personally like the Quatro's much better than using the Treo's with subs, but if you get used Vandy subs or a good deal on them, it's worth it for many who have done this and been very very happy.
If one runs the Treo full range, a sub will not correct what the OP describes.

Shakey
Shakey(((If one runs the Treo full range, a sub will not correct what the OP describes.)))

Yes it will Shakey,but just not your sub....

Unlike other subs
A properly high Passed pair of Vandersteen 2WQs will correct for this
by adjusting the High pass to optimize the main speakers
Tighter or fatter, your call, your preference, you achieve a smoother in room response, dramatically reducing the distortion with the main amp, speaker, room pairing.
The 2WQ subs offer a Level output and Contour setting tighter to punchier this allows optimizing into a room with either a wood floor to a cement floor.
Most folks reaction why does my whole system get better?
Best,
JohnnyR