Should people who can't solder, build or test their speakers be considered audiophiles?



  So, if you bought that Porsche but can only drive it and not fix it do you really understand and appreciate what it is? I say no. The guy who can get in there and make it better, faster or prettier with his own hands has a superior ability to understand the final result and can appreciate what he has from a knowledge base and not just a look at what I bought base. I mean sure you can appreciate that car when you drive it but if all you do is take it back to the dealership for maintenance and repairs you just like the shape with no real understanding of what makes it the mechanical marvel it is.
  I find that is true with the audio world too. There are those who spend a ton of money on things and then spend a lot of time seeking peer approval and assurance their purchase was the right one and that people are suitably impressed. Of course those who are most impressed are those who also do not design, build, test or experiment.

  I propose that an audiophile must have more than a superficial knowledge about what he listens to and must technically understand what he is listening to. He knows why things work and what his end goal is and often makes his own components to achieve this. He knows how to use design software to make speakers that you can't buy and analyze the room they are in and set up the amplification with digital crossovers and DSP. He can take a plain jane system and tweak it and balance it to best suit the room it is in. He can make it sound far better than the guy who constantly buys new components based on his superficial knowledge who does not understand why what he keeps buying in vain never quite gets there.

  A true audiophile can define his goal and with hands on ability achieve what a mere buyer of shiny parts never will. So out comes the Diana Krall music and the buyer says see how good my system is? The audiophile says I have taken a great voice and played it through a system where all was matched and tweaked or even purposely built and sits right down next to Diana as she sings. The buyer wants prestigious signature sound and the audiophile will work to achieve an end result that is faithful true to life audio as though you were in the room with Diana as she sings. The true audiophile wants true to life and not tonally pure according to someones artificial standard.

 So are you a buyer or an audiophile and what do you think should make a person an audiophile?
mahlman
Actually top gear has been known to saw cars in half, on multiple occasions. In addition to all the above mentioned activities. 
I propose that an audiophile must have more than a superficial knowledge about what he listens to and must technically understand what he is listening to. He knows why things work and what his end goal is and often makes his own components to achieve this. He knows how to use design software to make speakers that you can’t buy and analyze the room they are in and set up the amplification with digital crossovers and DSP. He can take a plain jane system and tweak it and balance it to best suit the room it is in. He can make it sound far better than the guy who constantly buys new components based on his superficial knowledge who does not understand why what he keeps buying in vain never quite gets there.

That guy’s the audio-equivalent of Ken Miles (recently portrayed in Mr. Mangold’s ’Le Mans ’66’). I actually know a guy like that, a friend of mine, and while most of us may think we can wring out a good deal of potential from our stereo set-ups, when audio über-geek Mr. Miles turns up and works his magic, one’s humbled.

I can certainly vouch for active configuration and its merits, although many may think what defines ’active’ is merely represented via products with build-in amps and DSP’s, and not that filtration prior to amplification on signal level offers the choice of separates as well. Add to that high sensitivity drivers and horns and you’re really unpopular with any mention of audiophile aspirations. Indeed, why not expel any such need for entitlement and go as we please, when what’s audiophile typicality veers from our own goals?

Btw, it's a classic trait seeing those outspoken about defining more strictly the terms of being an audiophile to conveniently fall within that classification themselves. Vanity, vanity..
You are not an audiophile if you do not have an appreciation of classical music. I would even go a step further and say if one does not have any classical music training, and no music theory knowledge, you can't really approach a true understanding of music. A deep understanding of music composition, or rather, the ability to compose music, is also a must!

Myself, I play baritone saxaphone, tenor saxaphone, and bassoon. I also play a bit of guitar and even the bag pipes. I played in a jazz band every saturday evening at a local bar for 7 years of my teenage life. I have a inherently deep and passionate understanding about music at the deepest levels!

I regularily attend concerts by the Toronto Symphony Orchestra at the Roy Thompson Hall. I go see them at least twice a year. I like ballet, and have seen the Nutcracker every year for the last 3 years! I'm not the biggest fan of opera, as the formal dress code bugs me, but I do feel I see enough classical music concerts to consider myself thoroughly engrossed in the music.
My favourite genre of music is classical. Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Holst, these are the lords and gods of my music world. Nothing can touch the classical greats; the giants.

I listen to my music on JBL loudspeakers, and though I could learn to solder and work on them, I don't need to. They are thoroughly reliable and dynamic loudspeakers, capable of rendering concert level volumes if I so ever need.

This is what I say to you folks who think they are true audiophiles: unless you already have a prexisting history with classical music, you are not really able to appreciate music on a fundamental deeper level. You are only enjoying music on a surface level. And you are in NO position to judge others on what you consider to be audiophile or not. I love music as a passion much more then 99% of the people on this forum. MUCH more.

Ps. I have an undergraduate degree from UWO Don Wright Faculty of music. I don't need anyone telling me I'm not educated. Because I am. Get on my level, gents.



nonoise6,023 posts06-23-2020 5:01pm
Hate to see you go but might I remind you the inventor of the internet, Al Gore, did not have a science degree.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/internet-of-lies/

All the best,
Nonoise


Oh my gosh, you actually bit on that? HA ha ha HAHAhaha.

" Ps. I have an undergraduate degree from UWO Don Wright Faculty of music. I don’t need anyone telling me I’m not educated. Because I am. Get on my level, gents. "

OK I will bite. What precisely is your level and please don’t use any big words.
One other passion I'd love to share. I am a very avid fan of broadway. I am blessed to have seen many of the best and sometimes first run casts of the best shows. I have seen the first cast of Wicked back in Chicago in 2008. As well as Hamilton back in 2017 at the Panasonic theater in Toronto. I have seen the Toronto production of Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera twice, The Lion King twice, Spamalot back in Chicago '08, Mama Mia, and Book of Mormon twice now.

I can't get enough of Broadway!


So yes. Going to see live performances is mandatory if you consider yourself an audiophile. And the more you see, the bigger of an audiophile you are. At least in my eyes! Who even cares about the stupid darn equipment as long as it sounds accurate. Accuracy begets dynamics, begets realism, begets emotion. If you have a system that is capable of rendering true concert recreation, with a good, and flat frequency response, everything will fall in line. And most speakers can do this with proper setup. It's an audiophile myth you need to spend stupid amounts of money to get a true connection to the music.

Believe me, I would know. I have the classical trained ears to hear what does and does not sound accurate. You can trust me over your own ears. Did I mention I hear just fine and dandy to above 20kHz still? Not sure if most of you older gents can say the same....
Oh my gosh, you actually bit on that? HA ha ha HAHAhaha.
No, mailman, that trap was laid for you. To be triggered and then try to lamely turn it back in a futile attempt of oneupmanship has me laughing.

It sure took you long enough to gather yourself in composing a response.

All the best,
Nonoise

" No, mailman, that trap was laid for you. To be triggered and then try to lamely turn it back in a futile attempt of oneupmanship has me laughing.

It sure took you long enough to gather yourself in composing a response.

All the best,
Nonoise"
  All rightee then. You win right?
" So yes. Going to see live performances is mandatory if you consider yourself an audiophile. And the more you see, the bigger of an audiophile you are. At least in my eyes! Who even cares about the stupid darn equipment as long as it sounds accurate. Accuracy begets dynamics, begets realism, begets emotion. If you have a system that is capable of rendering true concert recreation, with a good, and flat frequency response, everything will fall in line. And most speakers can do this with proper setup. It’s an audiophile myth you need to spend stupid amounts of money to get a true connection to the music.

Believe me, I would know. I have the classical trained ears to hear what does and does not sound accurate. You can trust me over your own ears. Did I mention I hear just fine and dandy to above 20kHz still? Not sure if most of you older gents can say the same.... "
I can certainly agree with this. While I have not attended many live performances the few I have were with small groups playing Cellos and Violins. That sound is what I strive for. Have you heard Enrico Dindo? I have a particularly good recording of his where the early 1700’s build Cello he plays is just extraordinary. Vivaldi is played more often than anything else around here lately.

Sadly my ears are not the worlds best and sometimes I invite a friend whose wife and daughter are classical musicians over to listen to the latest tweak or speaker setup. I can cup my ears and get some of what he hears but I am sure I miss things. He confirms I am on the right track for things beyond my hearing range though and I don’t miss what I can’t hear.
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Don’t let the idiots get ya down, they are the same people that brought you Love Canal and an industrial river that burned twice.....

same people who get lapped by .... wait for it.... a Tesla...
The Lotus looks fun, might drive one this week
Although I still believe I'm an audiophile overachiever (better than the rest of you), I never realized there were so many requirements for being an audiophile. Thanks mahlman! 
" Although I still believe I’m an audiophile overachiever (better than the rest of you), I never realized there were so many requirements for being an audiophile. Thanks mahlman! "
To be a true Audiophile is a tremendous burden and responsibility few can bear. As you perilously weave through the labyrinth of pseudo science and jargon dujour, if you survive mentally intact, you just might be an audiophile.
"Get on my level, gents."
Some of us are a little uneasy about parachuting. It may hurt when we hit the bottom.
"I can't get enough of Broadway!"
Any from that list of Broadway shows that you have seen on Broadway?
Top Gear is still on and the old Top Gear guys are on "The Grand Tour" on Amazon..
It's really not the same watching either Top Gear or The Grand Tour anymore. The chemistry the hosts had with that particular venue was the juice that kept that show going.

To think that Jeremy Clarkson punched an asst on the set for not having hot food at the ready was petty and stupid. He's also said lots of awful things that'a come back to bite his in his arse.

The only one worth watching now is Chris Harris. He's as good as the Stig sans the helmet. His Youtube channel used to be fun to watch but nothing new for quite some time. It's a pity he has to share his time with the clowns they now have. It's just not the same anymore.

All the best,
Nonoise
@tomic601, a Lotus would be my ride if I hit on a Lotto tix.....;)

I've always prefered 'nimble' vehicles,  and P/W ratios is what makes a sportbike leaves most watching you disappear...

....and why the Elise was in the top 5 of TG's track times....above a Ferrari *tsk*L*

Enjoy the test drive. 👍

BTW, some fella got the NY>CA non-stop down to 25 hrs. recently...
Solo.  In a rental car....'heavily modified'....

I'd loved to be there when he turned the car in...*LOL*  He'd installed tanks totalling 150 g. of fuel....gravity fed....trunk, back seat and passenger seat removed....

'Extremists'.....;)
Re parachuting. It’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the sudden stop. 😀

mahlman OP
So yes. Going to see live performances is mandatory if you consider yourself an audiophile. And the more you see, the bigger of an audiophile you are. At least in my eyes! Who even cares about the stupid darn equipment as long as it sounds accurate. Accuracy begets dynamics, begets realism, begets emotion. If you have a system that is capable of rendering true concert recreation, with a good, and flat frequency response, everything will fall in line. And most speakers can do this with proper setup. It’s an audiophile myth you need to spend stupid amounts of money to get a true connection to the music.

Believe me, I would know. I have the classical trained ears to hear what does and does not sound accurate. You can trust me over your own ears.

>>>>I’m getting a bad feeling. One of the worst sounding systems I’ve come across was the system of a professional musician. First Oboe, National Symphony of Washington to be precise. It’s not that his components were bad, either, on the contrary. He was a dealer for Cello speakers and electronics.

So, the moral of the story is being a musician doesn’t necessarily guarantee anything. An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. 😬
Don't know about Cello speakers but I do agree with listening to live venues enough to at least have an idea of what real life sound should be like. Assuming the acoustics of the venue are any good. Maybe this guy thought that was as good as he could get due to limited exposure to nice gear. There are many people who think  Bose and B&W are really something too but I would not be caught with them in my house.
  An ordinary man can build a $100,000 sounding system for $6,000 if he tries and save the dough for himself.
Does an orchestra sound any different when you are playing an oboe on the stage from when you are sitting in row 10 away from the stage?

Maybe the problem with that oboe player was that he was a dealer for Cello. Maybe he just did not get the Cello right.
Duke, you must live in a house full of women.  
Mahlman, so you have a bias against B&w as well I see. So one of my others systems with 800D3s is also terrible, as is mine with the Tekton Ulfers. I guess my Wilson Sasha Daws will be next on the list, lol. What a live performance sounds like? So many different setups, different amplification methods used, or non amplified, different acoustics. Live has many different sounds. Trying to group it as one sound dosnt seem to make much sense. And since acoustics are not great at many venues, I’d say live isn’t really the end goal holy grail sound to me. Recorded in a studio where acoustics can be better controlled makes more sense in my mind. Live can be fun for the entertainment, not always so much for the quality of the sound
Maybe the system was accurate, and you don't like accurate systems?  In my experience, musicians will tell me what sounds most accurate, and what sounds most pleasing and often they are not the same, it all depends on the person.



>>>>I’m getting a bad feeling. One of the worst sounding systems I’ve come across was the system of a professional musician. First Oboe, National Symphony of Washington to be precise. It’s not that his components were bad, either, on the contrary. He was a dealer for Cello speakers and electronics.

So, the moral of the story is being a musician doesn’t necessarily guarantee anything. An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. 😬

From my experience most musicians are not into as accurate a sound as most audiophiles Hgh I’m sure there are ones who want the ultimate in accuracy also. They are people like the rest of us, and each have their own preferences as well.  
Some of you guys make no f*cking sense. Get your head on straight. Also, the guy above me shills Synergestic Research. GO FIGURE! HAHAHAHA

roberttdid
Maybe the system was accurate, and you don’t like accurate systems? In my experience, musicians will tell me what sounds most accurate, and what sounds most pleasing and often they are not the same, it all depends on the person.

>>>>I’m getting a bad feeling. One of the worst sounding systems I’ve come across was the system of a professional musician. First Oboe, National Symphony of Washington to be precise. It’s not that his components were bad, either, on the contrary. He was a dealer for Cello speakers and electronics.

So, the moral of the story is being a musician doesn’t necessarily guarantee anything. An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. 😬

>>>>>I hate to be overly judgmental in these matters but I must be a better judge of sound than you are. Especially involving a system I heard and you didn’t. 
" Mahlman, so you have a bias against B&w as well I see. So one of my others systems with 800D3s is also terrible, as is mine with the Tekton Ulfers. I guess my Wilson Sasha Daws will be next on the list, lol. What a live performance sounds like? So many different setups, different amplification methods used, or non amplified, different acoustics. Live has many different sounds. Trying to group it as one sound dosnt seem to make much sense. And since acoustics are not great at many venues, I’d say live isn’t really the end goal holy grail sound to me. Recorded in a studio where acoustics can be better controlled makes more sense in my mind. Live can be fun for the entertainment, not always so much for the quality of the sound "

Yes the ones I have heard were pretty bad for the money though I have only heard ones up to 22g in price. Watched the little "Please do not touch our Diamond Tweeter" sign on top while I thought about how bad they were. Killed any interest I had in them.
Nope your Wilsons won’t be on there because I am not going to ever make an effort to listen to things like that. I have no interest in super high priced things no matter how good they are. I have people come by who have listened to those types of speakers and they like my home built just as much so I am quite content to trust their judgement and not waste my time.

Yes on large live venues but small ones can be superb. What I find hard is to get good recordings from any source be it live, studio or whatever. Much of the music I used to listen to I have thrown out because the initial recording engineers have done such a bad job that even Audacity can’t fix it.
d2girls
Some of you guys make no f*cking sense. Get your head on straight. Also, the guy above me shills Synergestic Research. GO FIGURE! HAHAHAHA

>>>>Is there a Report Whiner button?
I shill Synergistci research? When did this happen? I have bought their products, but I am not in the audio business any more than I spend lots of money in the industry for my personal listening pleasure. And if it’s not ok to talk about the products you own, and why you might or might not like them, then this whole forum is a waste of time. Mahlman, it seems you are just against things that are outside your budget range. There are products outside my budget also, but I would not turn down a chance to hear them, much less assume I would dislike them. Also seems that they’re probabaly are not many things you do like based on your additional comments about music recordings. M thinking you and kenjit should collaborate and create speakers and a proper recording studio. I would agree that B&w from the early 2000s were nothing special to me, but the 800d3s do sound very nice. I tend to buy much of my equipment on the used market and let someone else take the big depreciation hit, so I’m not paying full dollar. More value for the money that way, and I don’t have to spend hundreds of hours breaking it in. 
No, they are called music lovers .
( J sets out the means for popcorn...)
Just keep tapping the middle of your forehead. Something is bound to happen eventually.

geoffkait22,899 posts06-24-2020 3:39pm
>>>>Is there a Report Whiner button?

Stalker alert 🚨 What’s eating robberrttddidd? 
" Just keep tapping the middle of your forehead. Something is bound to happen eventually. "
  That right there is the funniest line in the whole thread and combines snark and truth in an epochal way
This folks is why two 1/2 wits don’t necessarily add up to one whole wit. Do the math. 
Get on my level, gents.
I am not on your level at all...No formal education in music classical or not...


But I can write 100 pages about the 5th symphony of Bruckner without being able to read the partition....Musical sounds are for me words and stories and metaphors...

I can appreciate Scriabin and feeling the abyss and similarities between him and Hildegard Von Bingen, Josquin Des Prez and Sorabji….Is that validation of any level at all?


:)


«All music is already in one gong note» -Grouch Marx
I wonder. Do flying saucers come with little martian peoples, entities or whatevers? Further I wonder if they perceive music as we do or if they have ESP recordings they listen to.

  What say you on this geoffkait?
Funny you should ask since my early career involved reverse engineering alien and foreign technology. My office was located just down the street at Wright Patt AFB from the US Air Force Operation Bluebook that investigated UFOs. Coincidence? I also was taking a graduate course in aerodynamics of reentry vehicles at the time. But I’ve already said too much. Wasn’t Wright-Patt where they took the alien 👽 recovered from the crash of the UFO 🛸 in the desert at Roswell? 😳
I don't know but you were there, right? So what do the little green guys look like?
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I only got a glimpse, it looked like robberrttddidd’s head on a sheep’s body.
"My office was located just down the street at Wright Patt AFB from the US Air Force Operation Bluebook that investigated UFOs."
Office? Is that how local McDonald’s is now called?
Stop using my jokes, pinhead. Get your own jokes.