Phono Stage Amp

However your current phono stage / cartridge match is DEFINITELY a problem; it’s just that you may be dealing with multiple issues here.

@mulveling

The root problem is WHY crank the volume up just past half way and there tends to be distortion.

If the M1 can’t provide enough voltage to feed the downstream components, then the preamp volume control should be able to turn all the way to max to add gain. It may increase noise level but not distortion.

The root problem is WHY crank the volume up just past half way and there tends to be distortion.

If the M1 can’t provide enough voltage to feed the downstream components, then the preamp volume control should be able to turn all the way to max to add gain. It may increase noise level but not distortion.

In theory that’s fine, but especially with TT gear involved, my experience is that if you don’t keep the signal in a "sweet spot" range at EVERY stage, bad things happen - and at best, suboptimal sound is the result. OP needs to fix the phono stage mismatch either way.

If OP gets a better phono stage and the distortion still remains at higher listening levels, then other potential culprits like feedback (solutions: better isolation, or simply moving the table, maybe a subsonic rumble filter...) should be examined in further detail. One problem at a time...

@cinqcepages,

FWIW: The cat Eye tube upfront as output level indicator. If that cat’s eye ever blinks shut while you’re playing your tunes, you’ve reached full power from the Cary 805 amp.

Below is from Stereophile measurements:

Cary 805 amp voltage gain averaged 23.2dB at 5dB feedback (into an 8 ohm load, slightly less into a 4 ohm load, slightly more into a 16 ohm load). With 0dB of feedback, the gain increased to 25.2dB; with 10dB of feedback it dropped to 18.2dB (all into an 8 ohm load).

Mike

@mulveling My older M1:

MC input Frequency response RIAA/IEC ±0.2dB Input sensitivity 300µV in for 300mV out (at 1 kHz) Input impedance 47KΩ THD at 1 kHz 88dB “A”-wtd. Line level outputs 1 pair RCA (phono) left and right 300mV rms nominal

No dip switches.

Are you suggesting Bob's Sky 30 SUT? I looked it up and am reviewing it. It seems very reasonable and affordable. My MF is 10+ years old. 

There is an Audio-Technica Signet MK10T step up for sale now @ A'Gon.

Not certain if the 1/15 ratio is enough for your low output cartridge, but others here should know.

If so, it would be an inexpensive experiment.

DeKay

Move the turntable and see how the system react will not cost anything.

MC input Frequency response RIAA/IEC ±0.2dB Input sensitivity 300µV in for 300mV out (at 1 kHz) Input impedance 47KΩ THD at 1 kHz 88dB “A”-wtd. Line level outputs 1 pair RCA (phono) left and right 300mV rms nominal

No dip switches.

Are you suggesting Bob’s Sky 30 SUT? I looked it up and am reviewing it. It seems very reasonable and affordable. My MF is 10+ years old.

Ah, that indeed appears to be a different version than the "M1VINL" we were looking up. This one’s spec’d 300uV to 300mV is better (60dB versus 56dB), but still too low for that cartridge IMO.

I have a couple of the Bob’s Devices Sky units, along with many other SUTs too. I almost always prefer a good SUT to an active MC stage, sometimes significantly so. The Sky is a good one, reasonably priced. There are better, but they cost more. Yes, I recommend them with a few caveats:

1. You must carefully match the SUT ratio to your cartridge. 20 - 30 is good for a 0.25mV cartridge. 30 in this case if you keep the M1, because it could use the extra gain.
2. You must use a low-capacitance, short (less than 1m) cable run from the SUT to your MM phono stage (set to 47K load). Bob sells a good 0.8m one for $400.
3. Always run a SUT into an MM stage (or MM mode). NOT into MC!

Don't the 805's have multiple taps; which ones are you using?

@mulveling Thank you.

@twoleftears My speakers show 50 - 100 watts and they show 4Ohms.

I am running 805's out of the 4ohms. Was my assumption wrong?

@cinqcepages,

I am running 805's out of the 4ohms. Was my assumption wrong?

No! But, I would try all three output taps and use the one that sounds best.

Mike😎

@mulveling For now, One more question; or asking for verification:

TT -> SUT -> MF M1 (MF M1 input from SUT is MM not MC) then lastly, Care in choosing RCA.

Ground from TT to SUT and, if necessary, ground also from SUT to MF M1

Am I understanding?

And If I add a higher output Cartridge it would be a bit better as well.

Thank you for your help. The more I think about it - this has to be it. I do get great volume from the CD and DAC for rock music. No distortion. Even the loud mayhem type rock like metal. Sometimes I just like to hear the JAZZ a litter louder than it lets me.  

@mulveling For now, One more question; or asking for verification:

TT -> SUT -> MF M1 (MF M1 input from SUT is MM not MC) then lastly, Care in choosing RCA.

Ground from TT to SUT and, if necessary, ground also from SUT to MF M1

Am I understanding?

Yes! Perfect. Usually the SUT should become the grounding point from your turntable. Usually you don't need or want an additional ground run from SUT to Phono Stage. Just use short, shielded, low capacitance cables from the SUT and follow the arrows (shield terminated on the SUT side).

And If I add a higher output Cartridge it would be a bit better as well.

Higher output is easier to work with in general (0.25mV is always at least a bit tricky), but you would not want to use it with a 30x SUT, or maybe even a SUT at all. Depending on its output level it may be fine with the M1's MC mode. In my experience, cartridges of 0.5mV - 0.8mV work well with a 60 dB phono stage. But a 15x SUT will work nicely with those 0.5 - 0.8mV cartridges too, and you can order the Bob's Sky 30x / 15x switchable :)  

Thank you for your help. The more I think about it - this has to be it. I do get great volume from the CD and DAC for rock music. No distortion. Even the loud mayhem type rock like metal. Sometimes I just like to hear the JAZZ a litter louder than it lets me.  

I absolutely love playing heavy metal, loud, on my Tannoy speakers or Stax headphones :) 

@ditusa No the cat eye never has. I eventually turned it off. Figured if I ever sell the unit, it would be good if it worked. Eye candy, but not so much.

I do appreciate your help. Here was my thing: I had enough money but not the experience to think it through and plan my outfit. Instant gratification was more the thing. Plus: I WANT TUBES. Why? Don't those McIntosh look great? But not the right reason to buy gear.   

I do feel stuck. I don't have the money now; at lease disposable. And I am getting old. Already thinking about my daughter having to get rid of my junk.....

If you like the sound with your digital source gear just just replace your current cartridge with one of higher output.

You can get a nice 1.0 mv Grado for $600 as well as gobs of high output MM's

 in the same and even lower price range.

Assume that they (even though less expensive) would sound better than the current mismatch you are dealing with.

If the dealer who originally set you up is local have them install it.

DeKay

     Just my prediction:

     The system will sound much better with an MM cartridge, or SUT, but: still lack his digital's OOMPH, unless the OP uses a juicier (higher voltage output) phono stage.

                                       Happy listening!

cinquepages,

mulveling beat me to it, and blesses you with the gain calculation! I can only add a couple things.

Since the SLP-05 has input level controls, where do you have them set when playing vinyl? If you haven't tried turning up the input levels, it's definitely worth a shot. You'd need to be careful to turn them back down for digital.

And in spite of the review that said the single ended inputs sound better than the balanced, with many pieces using XLRs gives up to a 6db increase, so that's also worth a try.

David

Good proposal to connect 200wpc.  If this solves problem, it exonerates the TT and front end.

@whyduhitme   Starting again here.  You don't get the fuzz on other inputs than phono.  So try a different phono amp as I note the MA252 has no MC input.  I don't see why changing the phono amp prevents you plugging into the line level inputs on the MA252 as you do now.   I assume you get equal fuzz in both channels?  Check the settings on the Mofo are suitable for the cart.

@cinqcepages,

Just a thought, do you run the Cary 805 amp with or without feedback?

Mike 

@ditusa Without feedback. 845 tubes.

@clearthinker Thank you.

@mulveling I am doing it all it all except the TT and Tonearm. The Bob's; the E-GLO and a cartridge.

May I ask one last question? Within a $500 range: what cartridge would fit in nicely with those and my 11.1? And so I understand you - why MM or why MC at this point with this whole new solution?

I do appreciate your advice and time spent with me. KARMA Maybe sometime I will somehow with or without you knowing - have helped you or someone you know, out.

@rodman99999 I finally started with your recommendation, I picked up a cheapy cart. It arrives tomorrow. MM. 

That is the fastest and easiest test. And it gives me a spare cart as well, when I am done changing / upgrading.

@cinqcepages -

     Post any progress, please.

+1 @mulveling

sort out your phono stage cart mismatch first by either a SUT or stronger phono stage 66-72db. Hopefully this will be enough volume boost to satisfy, otherwise you’ll need more amp power or a more efficient speaker

I scanned other responses and didn't seem to see this idea -- apologize if it's already been mentioned.  But turntables don't like vibrations; they're much more susceptible to vibrations causing distortions than, say, a CD player.  Maybe when you crank up the volume, your speakers are causing enough vibrations that the turntable's tracking is getting compromised.  Just a thought.

Good luck investigating and correcting the problem.

Happy listening,

Dawgfish

@dawgfish 

I am isolating the TT away from the speakers as of now.