Made in America

I see that you're kind of new here. If you had been around longer or frequented any of the other audiophile forums, you'd know there are a core group of audiophiles that are passionate about "made in America" audio gear. They get very upset about the influx of "knock off" and "look-alike" gear, especially from China, and refuse to buy it. Yes, "made in America" means plenty for a significant number of audiophiles. Although, gear from Japan and some of the European countries has an excellent reputation and is prized by many audiophiles. It's the gear made in China that is very polarizing.

China is building a Lenovo manufacturing plant somewhere next to Greensboro so some of the Lenovo laptops will be made in US. Which one would you prefer after all?

A lot of my favorite gear I use is by American companies.

OHM, Bel Canto, Audio Research mainly. Logitech Squeezebox also (though theline was recently discontinued...grrrr).

I have two mhdt DACs made by some guy in the far east that are real giant killers though.

I also am fond of the British products I use: DNM Reson ICs, Linn turntable.

Dynaudios from Denmark are gold standard speaker designs IMHO.

LEts not forget France, Triangle speakers can be very good values if you can find them in the US these days.

And of course, from Japan, the DEnon DL103R cart, another giant killer.

Very important to me.

I am upgrading my current system with US companies.

Vandersteen for speakers
McIntosh for amp/pre-amp.

I can be just as guilty as the next guy when it comes to buying American made goods. Not always, as I'll seek out the best quality when I'm paying the bill.

Let's face it. Most of American made goods are made overseas (and down south) in factories owned or co-owned by American companies that just sell to themselves here, stateside, increasing the mark up along the way.

Keeping that in mind, you can still put money in the pocket of Americans when buying some "foreign" product. As for actual, foreign made equipment, I'd have no qualms whatsoever (if I could afford it) buying something like a Luxman. Heck, my new plasma is a Samsung and I wouldn't mind driving a Mercedes C class.

We're constantly bombarded with the notion that we live in a global economy when it comes to labor (our declining wages) but told to buy only American made goods to get our vote. Don't fall for the hype: buy American when you can but if you get the itch to try that "other" make, don't feel too bad about it.

All the best,
Nonoise

yep i can't still see myself driving Ford(burp).

I prefer to buy American of course, but I think one would be ill advised to not accept the trend towards a more global economy and America's evolving (yet still predominant) place within it. It is happening faster than ever and will hopefully be a good thing for all in the long run, though many will feel the pains of transition in the interim.

I want the best I can afford regardless of where its made with the exception of China due to labor practices. I realize most parts in my U.S. assembled amp were sourced from China. Can't get away from it.

What could be some cost advantages for buying U.S. made gear? Is a $5k amp made in the US a better deal than one made in France because your paying less for taxes (import tax fixed into the price) ? Are profit margins the same? When someone says you'd have to spend twice as much to get this level of performance does that comment include import duty and taxes? Import Duty on a $5k amp from France is a about $270 and that doesn't include shipping. I would think your money goes further if you can buy something assembled here at home.

I try to buy American, but I have owned some Canadian and European gear too. Currently, my speakers, amp, preamp and turntable/arm are American made.

I also prefer made in American products, however have settled for made in china or chinese parts for American companies. But do prefer beyond the name plate, the sound of American Company's products. My Revels speakers have Chinese made cabinets, My Audio Research pre-amp has some chinese relays, My Ayre CDP has a japenese transport, my McIntosh amps are made in USA but owned by a japenses holding company which recently sold to and Italian holding company that also owns Audio Research. My Linn TT is scottish, but the cartridge is japenese. My Cardas cables, Running Springs, PS Audio, Harmonic Tech, all seem to be American. I have a world of confusion all in one cabinet.
But so far I don't have to call Bangledesh for tech support...

I have Luxman amp from japan.
Harbeth speakers from the UK
AZ cables from the USA
Nordost IC USA
Rega p5 UK
Hegel Hd11 DAC Norway
PS Audio PWD USA

In the past I own cayin china made, Marantz china, Yamaha USA,
Ayon Austria.
So far I don't get focus in where they were made, more in how they sound or match my taste.

I respect made in America products and followers, just not the way I look the hobby or handle myself.

Regards

there is denotation and connotation involved in this question.

i think the connotation is that an american company manufactures in the states, employing american workers. i suspect that what i have described is what people mean by american products, rather than a toyota assembled in the us, or a chinese company hiring american workers and building some product.

i think when people advocate "buy american", they imply, from an american company, located domestically.

Humbuster,

FYI - while it's true that McIntosh gear has been continued to be manufactured in the U.S. (mostly), McIntosh Laboratory has not been a U.S. owned company since 1990 when it was acquired by a Japanese car audio manufacturer (Clarion), until 2003 when it was sold to another Japanese company (D&M Holdings), and most recently was sold to Fine Sounds SpA, an Italian firm.

For me it is hard to get nationalistic when buying most anything. Some of the worst products I have purchased in the last 20 years have been American made. Fortunately most of my high end USA audio stuff was pretty good after it settled in and got the bugs worked out.

But I've had both good and bad products from both domestic and foreign companies so I focus on who will be able to service the product when it fails. It is getting harder as time passes even to find a good USA tech when the manufacturer has closed shop. So I also buy product that is easily understood and repaired with the techs we have. A harder test for foreign products in the USA. Note a lot of very good Chinese products/manufacturers can't even get a distributor to last more than a year or two. European product is not that much better.

But nationalistic "Buy American" is just so much union propaganda, IMHO. Our manufacturers do not subscribe religiously to that, why should we. Even our government doesn't subscribe to that!

Mrtennis, what do you mean by "American company"? Most of companies are international. Is "Phillips-USA" American or Dutch company. They still have small building there to signify their origin. Is Telefunken German (bought by Vishay)? We can ask who is majority shareholder or where company was incorporated (Tyco in Bermuda). But if I can determine for sure, that company is not American shall I then stop buying in 7-eleven because it is Japanese or in Trader's Joe because it is German, not to mention Shell Gas (Dutch), Burger King (UK) etc. Every single Toyota Avalon sold anywhere in the world, including Japan, is made in Kentucky giving jobs to a lot of folks there. I have currently two Avalons (one 17 years old) and they work like Swiss watch. I had Ford Taurus before that was falling apart costing me a lot of money and sleepless nights. Ford's quality is still very poor (according to latest surveys), perhaps because a lot of people buy "American". Should my next car be Toyota or Ford? I think it should be the "best" car for me. Making selections based on other factors is against the very system we live in and hence un-American.

Regardless of product genre (audio or otherwise) I always try to buy American whenever possible and always avoid Chinese goods. The former because I see it as being best for our economy, the latter because of far too many experiences with poor quality goods that disappoint. Products from other countries get a fair shake. Regardless of origin all goods have to meet certain standards.

The only items in my system today that were made in China are power tubes. The rest are from the USA, Canada, Japan and Great Britain. YMMV.

I think the pertinent phrase here was coined by one of your recent presidents, ie: "The New World Order". A very scary prospect when you consider the ongoing economical adjustments we've been observing in Europe and China which holds the largest US cash reserves in the world. That's a big I.O.U.. They already own Canada. They own all the major steel manufacturing facilities along with the iron ore mines in the world. This on top of everybody else clamoring desperately to get their share. Take a wild guess where we'll be here in North America when the dust settles?

hi kjabki:

i already answered that question. however, here it is:

the company is located in the us, and uses only us components in its products. it doesn not matter wheteher the workers were born in the us or somewhere else.

Right now I have a nearly All American system, but not because I'm particularly nationalistic about such things. I just seem to gravitate toward small companies that are accessible to me, for example I like being able to speak to the owner if necessary. And I have found some brands that I like.

I think it's great that we still have talented folks in these specialized small businesses that build things worth owning. However, maybe some of these companies build elsewhere... My current system:

Quicksilver amps (great customer service and these well-made amps will probably be collectible vintage pieces 40 yrs from now)
Audible Illusions preamp (slow service but worth it)
Silverline speakers (bought directly from Alan Yun, nice guy)
VPI turntable
Bottlehead phono preamp (cool company that has a very helpful and friendly DIY support group attached to it)
My only non USA piece of gear is my CD player

I have also owned and think highly of Vandersteen and have always liked vintage JBL

Just read an article on NPR. Most "American" car? Toyota Avalon, 85% of all parts made in USA or Canada and assembled in USA. Who woulda guessed? I would have thought a Buick or something like that. My Subaru was built in Indiana.

My entire audio system, except PCs and AC outlets, is nominally US made but percentage wise (parts) it's anyone's guess.

I think at one time this question would have been relatively easy to answer but these days it's much less clear.

I knew that Rja, I bought a Toyota Avalon that was built in Kentucky.

Yes. Built/Made in America means much more to me than other gear made outside of the USA!

for those who are concerned about "made in america", consider the possibility that you could purchase a product, be happy with it and find out that that it has no american part, and was manufactured outside of the us. Is that a problem ?

MrT, mis-direction is not a new marketing trick. I do my due diligence when purchasing, that does not mean that I've never been lied to. Hell, lying is as American as apple pie!! Life happens, what you gonna do?

Made in the USA means a lot to me. Look, I've got kids who will be entering the job market within a couple of years. And so do many of you! I hope there's more out there for them than flippin' burgers or makin' coffee.

I live in the Philly area. Here's a stat that may surprise some. Ten percent of ALL World War II war materiel was made in the Delaware Valley area: ships; steel; tanks; uniforms, etc, etc. Did you know that the USS New Jersey was built in the Philly shipyards??

During the 1950s and 1960s, Philly hosted every industry you can think of: steel; chemicals; heavy manufacturing, textiles, even insurance, banking and finance. You ever hear of Botany 500 -- that's Daroff & Co, Broad and Lehigh. Daroff employed hundreds if not thousands of people. Daroff is gone. Walk into any clothing store and check where most of our clothing is made.

In many ways, Archie Bunker was more Philadelphian than NYC. It's all gone. Tourism, restaurants, sh*t has taken its place. Philadelphia's population has shrunk from over 2 million in the 50s to less than 1.4 million. What's more important is that the population has radically changed. Instead of tax paying blue collar workers, we have more people living in poverty and welfare than you can imagine.

Anyone check out the news blip last week about the factory fire in Bangladesh -- hundreds of workers killed. Why?? Maybe because Bangladesh doesn't have OSHA, fire codes, EPA rules, health care insurance, social security, minimum wage protection. How can we compete against that? What does fair trade mean if our working citizens have to go back to 1900 sweat shop conditions. It took decades to turn those conditions around.

So my friends, I ask you. Are we really better off buying cheap sh*t made overseas by exploited workers, while our workforce get's dumber, less skilled, demoralized, less educated, and so forth.

Folks, I remember the old saw my Econ prof taught us back in the 70s. "Just think of it. With technology, importing cheap goods, look how our standard of living will improve. The hands of workers will be unshackled from the drear of mundane work, and the human mind will be free to create new jobs and opportunities for all." What a crock! Today . . . you'd better get your kids' butts into high tech, health care, or the like, or else they'll be flippin' burgers. What's worse, if they go to college, a useless degree and thousands in school loans.

So . . . damn straight. Buy American or at least Canadian;. Pay more if you have to, but support our economy or else our kids will have less than us and our country will become a second class world power.

And since I'm on a roll, one more point. Our elected officials are either nitwits or flat out liers. If they don't know what the underlying problem is and the long term solution, they're idiots. If they do and they're not telling us the truth and educating the polity, then they're liers. We're not in 16 trillion of debt for nothin.'

And by the way . . . I'm proud to say that all of my electronic gear is ARC, made in the USA. Turntable -- VPI, made in New Jersey. Cartridge -- Soundsmith Zephyr, made by Peter Ledermann in Peekskill, NY. Speakers --Paradigm S8s, made in Canada.

Bifwynne,
I hear you. Before 2000 our unemployment rate was around 5% and we had a surplus. By the end of 2008 we closed and moved overseas 60,000 plants and laid off over 5 million workers.

All one hears is of the unnecessary and onerous burdens place on companies (like worker safety regs and pollution standards) so off go the jobs to places were 112 people can burn to death so some a-hole stateside can enjoy a bigger return on his "investment" by ignoring those standards.

Why should those same people who exploit labor give a tinkers fart about an educated populace? It's more easy to manipulate them if they're ignorant.
As for those who collectively owe more in student loans than what's owed in credit card debt, that was just another scheme.

Our elected officials know damn well what's going on.

All one has to do is listen to the right ones and back them.

All the best,
Nonoise

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

Well said, Bifwynne!

Does that mean made in Venescuella, Peru, Brazil, Chile, Argentina also?

i think there is a trade off between the utility of the product and helping to provide employment for americans.

i can't specify how to determine which way to go, except to say, that certain products have reliability and safety issues. for such products, the country of origin is immaterial.

in addition, with respect to audio, there is the cost and sound factors. if there are two components, one made in the us, which costs more than another, manufactured not in the us, and there is very little difference in sound, it is hard to pay more, just because it is made in a foreign country.

i think american companies have to be competitive.

the classic example is wallmart vs a local store. wallmart's prices may be a lot less, so it is difficult to patronize the local merchant if there is a big price differential.

"There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey". John Ruskin

Boutique companies are a consideration.
I personally have products from Wavelength (Gordon Rankin) and Doshi (Nick Doshi).
There are others of the same ilk.
Do a bit of research to weed out imposters.

Mrtennis, I am not trying to be crosswise with you. Your post permits the inference that we should let the free market set the price and let the chips fall where they be. That's ok. I'm not a communist.

But if you're also saying that if one can get the same quality widget for less, then buy cheaper -- even if the competition is not on a level playing field. Then I must respectfully disagree.

Compete -- yes, of course. But not when the stuff we import is made under slave labor conditions or back door subsidies (e.g., direct grants or even indirect as through currency manipulation).

Here's an idea: the federal government has all those workers who like to regulate sh*t. Here's a job. They can start with strategically important industries. They ensure that (i) there is no foreign government subsidy of the products we import, (ii) the labor component reflects US standards of minimum wage, OSHA, EPA, and basic health insurance, and (iii) the currency is allowed to reflect free market supply and demand.

If the US dollar is weak because we're giving more US chits to foreigners than we're taking in -- then so be it. The cost of goods will go up and companies may be encouraged to build plants here here.

Did you hear that the US may be the world's largest energy producing country in the next 5 years or so, even more than Saudi. Do you why? In large part because the price of oil has risen to the point where it's economical to drill. Sh*t, half the territory of North Dakota has oil wells on it.

If the foreign country still wants to have their workers live in cardboard huts, no problem. The US can simply impose a countervailing duty that can be used to pay displaced US workers income replacement benefits.

Look our standard of living will decline because income will not keep up with the cost of goods and services -- but it WILL happen sooner or later anyway. How much longer can we import more widgets than we build for ourselves? How many more people will remain unemployed or underemployed before we realize that the US dollar over time will have to decline because foreign governments and investors will simply not want to take cheap dollars for their wares. Would you??

The world is not that complex. It's all about barter, using money as chits to trade. If someone is holding a lot of US chits, he can dump them or invest them in securities and demand high interest rates. I wish it were that the chits could return to be invested in US industry, but I suspect that the capital will fly out the US back door into foreign countries anyway.

There is an imbalance -- it will correct itself one way or the other. The correction could be catastrophic like 2008/9 or it can be managed so we can have a soft landing.

So when will our elected leaders stop the crap and tell us the truth and prepare the country for what's coming. They also need to stop the smoke and mirrors that it's just about taxes. It's about basic supply and demand and the cost of production. Taxes only affect the balance on the margin. IMHO

In the meantime, until the "inside the belt" bozos act like real leaders, buy American if at all possible. Where's Harry Truman and Ronald Reagan when we need them.

In my post above I mentioned that most of my audio system is "American". BUT, I don't know how many of the constituent parts are "American". Just because a product is built here does not mean that it contains a significant percentage of "American" parts. So in this respect what exactly does "American" mean?
As an example, again as mentioned in my previous post, the Toyota Avalon is the most "American" car, meaning it is built here and contains more American parts than any other vehicle.
Now I'm sure many folks driving Fords think they're driving "American" cars when in reality their vehicles may be built in another country with a smaller percentage of American parts.
I'm all for buying American made products and do own many but the distinctions are being blurred more every day.

Excellent point Rja. I think, but am not entirely sure, that most if not all the innards of my ARC gear and my VPI Classic is American made. OTOH, I understand that the transport ARC uses in its CDPs is made by Phillips in Euro-land.

When made by Phillips happened in Euro-land? How long ago?
please advise.

Marakanetz, as I recall, I read somewhere that ARC imports the Phillips Pro 2 transport from Holland. Regardless, it's ARC favorite CDP transport. ARC uses it on the REF CD-8 and the CD-5, and used it on the now discontinued Ref CD-7 and CD-3 MkII.

Recommended reading: "The World is Flat" by Thomas L. Friedman. Global competition is a reality that isn't going away. I lead a product development group in a manufacturing plant. I have to work hard every day to maintain a competitive edge, stay profitable and keep customers from switching to overseas producers. I use my stereo to come home and unwind when I can get the chance. We use overseas suppliers ourselves. I don't always agree with it, but it is over my head. I have been in cities in the US that straddle state lines and seen incredible differences in prosperity on one side vs. the other. So I know government has a huge impact on the economy. Not just at the federal level, but at the state level too. I'm convinced too many of our government leaders play to the lobbyists funded by special interest groups and big business. It is frustrating to me to see CEOs making thousands of times their workers' average salaries (in the 60s CEOs made about 30x their average workers' pay) and yet they will close a US plant and ship the work overseas to gain a 1-2% margin. In the end, those companies still fail. Look at how many big corporations these days have let their CEOs earn more than the companies themselves earn. It is crazy. They dismiss their talent and then run the company into the ground trying to cut costs by shipping manufacturing out of the country. (I am sensitive to this because it has happened to me in the past.) We need government leaders to stand up and put communities first and jobs first.

Tonyeinsc, well said.

I have a brother in law who used to work at Imagineering for Disney back in the day. He's headed projects in Japan, Florida, and almost went to France. One day the department heads at Disney held a meeting and told them if they could get rid of all of them that day, they would.

As you can guess, they were farmed out to sub contractors who used to work at Disney to do the same work for less and without benefits. He did that for a few years until he got some backers he met in China to fund his company to compete with the guys who screwed him out of his job.

It's really off putting to think that he had to get Chinese backers to do American work, but it freed him up to do it his way. I would say it's a funny way to do things but it's really sad that it has come to this.

All the best,
Nonoise

Bifwynne, I guess that it's indeed good to know about ARC transport especially if DIY bug bites. I've been always thinking that there's no more Phillips manufacturing in Holland.

Not audio related, but an interesting story about a classic product reinvented to still be made in America.

All it takes is the will to do it. There's no magic to it.

Ideology can be a dangerous thing when not thought through. The answer can be staring you right in the face (and it is: we've been here before, many times) but a belief system based on "gut feelings", preconceived notions, and mob mentality can derail any sensible and non threatening solution.

Nowadays, people will most certainly cut off their nose to spite their faces.
They'll tell you it was due to the principle of the matter. A principle that exists only in their head and not in reality.

All the best,
Nonoise

EVERYONE should read "Web Of Debt" by Ellen Hodgson Brown, JD

"EXPLODING THE MYTHS ABOUT MONEY Our money system is not what we have been led to believe. The creation of money has been "privatized," or taken over by a private money cartel. Except for coins, all of our money is now created as loans advanced by private banking institutions -- including the private Federal Reserve. Banks create the principal but not the interest to service their loans. To find the interest, new loans must continually be taken out, expanding the money supply, inflating prices -- and robbing you of the value of your money. Web of Debt unravels the deception and presents a crystal clear picture of the financial abyss towards which we are heading. Then it explores a workable alternative, one that was tested in colonial America and is grounded in the best of American economic thought, including the writings of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. If you care about financial security, your own or the nation's, you should read this book."

If you care about how we got here, what the dangers are and how to fix the problems, please, please read this.
Steve

Not audio related, but still a good example, i'd agree to Onhwy61.
Manufacturing here vs. there isn't much of the investment difference especially after shipping expenses of transporting overseas goods. Steve Jobs of Apple mentioned that it will be very hard to bring back the manufacturing to USA, but indeed the custom system shouldn've promoted overseas manufacturing for extra profits.
It's completely wrong perception that with larger profits of large companies to gain larger revenues. Larger revenues are generated by smaller percentage of unemployment and welfare benefits.

I recently read an article that compared the federal governments income in the past to the present. A major portion of it was once generated by import duties and tariffs. This is now a minor source of income for the federal government.
Now compare that to another article I read about the cost of a Harley in China. Although I can't recall the exact figures the cost for the bike, as well as the cost to license it, was astonishing.
Although I accept that we are in a global economy and I generally attempt to avoid jingoism, when it comes to China we are definitely not playing on an even field. I would feel a whole lot better if the relationship was a two way street.
If anyone has read these articles perhaps you could reference them here.

A little OT, but here is an interesting article about insourcing. I grew up in a blue-collar town in the midwest and this made me feel good. I recently purchased one of the high-efficiency heat pump hot water heaters described in the article (made in USA).

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/12/the-insourcing-boom/309166/

Rja,
Yes, up until the Civil War, all government revenues were paid for by taxes and tariffs on imports and about half until the 1st World War.

Steve,
I've heard of Ellen Brown from the Thom Hartmann show where she sometimes offers her latest views. Quite the thinker that lady.

Marakentz,
The savings of labor (typically 5% of product) is only one aspect of the nickel and dime act we endure. The cost of shipping back usually ends up in a wash. The major savings (according to a Bain co-worker of Romney who headed offshoring of labor) comes from avoiding environmental standards, medical benefits, pensions and safety standards. It seems we Americans have it too safe and easy for their tastes.

All the best,
Nonoise

Consumer demand leads, and corporations follow. On another current AudiogoN thread, a member is lamenting the fact that dealers won't sell across state lines. He wants the product for less, and who wouldn't? Corporations know this.

Consumers have an expectation (right or wrong is irrelevant) that newer versions of product A will be better, faster, smaller, more efficient, more powerful, AND lower in price than the earlier versions of the same product.

Corporations try to meet these expectations. UNTIL CONSUMER DEMAND CHANGES, CORPORATIONS WILL NOT CHANGE!

Personally, I don't think the consumer expectation is unrealistic. I think the financial burden placed on US companies by federal and state governments is bordering on counter productive.

Ironically, I think high end audio is a bit immune to this. Enthusiasts will pay outrageous amounts of money for nearly anything from feet and cables to speakers and amps. Obviously, there is enough margin in the few units sold to keep some of the "American" high end companies still in business.

Pgawan, it is a much more complex issue than consumer demand. The market sets the prices for products. Companies then make the decision to produce those products based on profitability and capital investment. (It takes money to make money). Just a few years ago, I was paying $89/month for cable but now it costs me $140/month for the same level of service. I am not happy about that at all; but I have not found a suitable, cheaper alternative. This cable outfit is making a ton of money for their investors and they reward their CEO handsomely for it. The market dictates the prices and companies must find ways to produce and make a profit. The point is, most of our mainstream products are produced by large global companies. These companies have resources the world over and the decision to invest in this country or that is based largely on profitability. What you did for me yesterday doesn't matter. Its all about what can you do for me today. Senior level management is filled with egocentric people. That is a reality. They likely, generally speaking, have failed marriages and/or fractured family lives. These same management teams also fail to maintain relationships with their direct employees that produce their products. Being egocentric, they tend to severe those relationships and move on. They cannot break those paradigms just as much as sometimes older manufacturing plants are not able to break old paradigms and move on. A good example is a certain tire plant in the midwest a couple of decades ago. It was a US owned plant. Quality was poor, productivity was poor and the plant was loosing money. The management closed the plant and sold it. They said that they had no other options. They blamed the workers for all of the issues. A foreign firm bought the plant and rehired the same workers. They invested money into the plant and it became a top producer with excellent quality and profitability. The only change was the management team. Is that the case every time? No, of course not, but it is more often than not. The relationship between senior management and their manufacturing plants is just like a marriage. Both sides have to work at it and let go of the baggage. Egocentric management teams, however, tend to fold up the game board and go home when things do not go their way. Start a new relationship in a new location and lay down their egocentric rules. It works for a while until that new plant becomes restless and tired of the onesided relationship. If you follow the news at all, you have seen this played out over and over again.
Yes, enthusiasts will pay outrageous amounts of money for nearly anything from cables to speakers and amps. There is a market for high end equipment and none of us can really guess at the motivation of the leadership of these high end US companies. Maybe they love this hobby too and they keep their manufacturing close at hand so they have more control over it and the day to day operations. Maybe they feel a sense of duty to their local community. Maybe, if they had the capital and market growth potential, they would invest in a plant overseas to generate maximum profits.

Too many maybes. Your first premise is likely the correct one. My wife here in Canada works for a well known outfit that converts full size vans into motorhomes. This company has been on a downward spiral for the last ten years due to exactly the same thing. One hand doesn't know what the other is doing. The problem is, neither does it seem to care. However in this case the workers are to blame! Consequently so is upper management. Production is down so they hire 50 workers from a plant that just went under for the same reason and guess what happened? Production actually went down. Why? Because in that 50, they also hired the management team! Upper management appears for a weekly pep talk but doesn't want to hear the details or complaints. That's up to, you got it, the management team who consistently turns a blind eye to inefficiencies in the plant. Otherwise they'd have to admit they've been incompetent letting it go for such a long time. The workers see very clearly what's going on and play along, save for a few. Everyone sees very clearly they're eventually going to be out of a job. Look what happened to General Motors. Not much difference there. Or in a lot of companies. It's not just about losing jobs overseas. New immigrants come in, see what's going on, and jump on it(but I'm referring to self employment here). Production is the number 1 goal elsewhere. The Federal government is well aware of the laxidaysical attitude of entitlement the unions have garnered and ingrained in the mentality of the labor force. Up here in Canada the immigration flood gates are wide open. It's no different south of us. So we have companies heading overseas while the Federal government tries desperately to stave off the inevitable by increasing immigration. But the immigrants ultimately end up adopting the status quo as soon as they learn the ropes. No one's gonna make a fool out of them. In the the end the population just keeps increasing along with the deficit.