Bass- at what frequency does it change from sounding like a string to just a low tone?
I have two subs and speakers I like. I have little experience comparing them to anything else. As the frequency of a given note goes lower, at some point in my system it stops sounding like an instrument making the sound and instead it just sounds like the sound. I’m not crazy about this, but maybe that’s how it is for everyone?
Strings produce a bunch of different frequencies that make them sound like a string. The technique used to vibrate the string changes the frequency profile, if you will, of the sound. A hard pick produces different frequencies than fingers, etc.
One good example song is "Snuggle Up" by Brian Bromberg. If your low end is clean and clear enough, there’s a lot of very low frequency pitches mixed with textures on top from fingerstyle playing with muted plucks. A pure synthetically produced sine wave at the same fundamental frequencies would just sound like pure tones, without the overlaid textures.
I agree with gladmo but will try to answer directly. 60hz grabs the kick drum impact and is as high as you need to go with good speakers imo. At 80hz you are clearly into the bsss guitar range and it can get hard to match tone even with a highpass it sounds like a sub/sat combo to me. At 60hz you get bass slam but could lose a touch of texture at 40-50hz if you have VERY capable speakers
But if you listen to just the subs with no speakers right around 35hz it is just tones or at least very slow cycles and it is just tones more or less. At 35 you are below an electric bass guitar. 35hz is what shakes the room for home theater.
I have had subs in 3 systems while electronics and speakers changed a few times the subs always stayed. rough speaker specs and casual measurements in my room confirmed the specs more or less (large room with minimal nodes). It is different for each system room.
thiel 2.4=flat to 32hz, used a 60hz highpass, thiels have great low bass but it is tuned too light for my tastes.
revel 228be=flat to 45hz? used a 60hz highpass, Revel has no low bass, totally mixing in action… in bad need of subs
JBl 4367=flat to 40hz, use a 40hz highpass. Amazing bass texture from these JBLs and they outperform the subs from 40hz up with more texture and tone but they drop lock a rock at 40hz.
All this information is quite helpful. My subs are SVBs, So I’m using a low pass filter set at 58 for Atc Speaker’s that go down to 48, measured at six not three drop off.
I guess what I’m really after is when subs are operating properly, or even with just floor standers, how low am I supposed to be able to hear notes as they would sound with actual Instruments in the room?
I am worried that my system doesn’t sound as good as it could, and that maybe other people hear much more than tones at frequencies lower than mine.
I have ATC SCM40 mains, 2 SVB3000s, along with an A308 MF amp, a good streamer, and a good DAC. I also have a very challenging room with no options to improve anything at this point, room-wise. I don't know if I've ever looked at my profile.
So I gather that for the most part, the lowest sounds aren't within the range of instruments per se, and the clarity of these is room dependent.
Gosta: I have a hell of a time determining where to set the sub volume. Which result reflects the recording's intent? How did they mean to balance the bass with the rest? And what sounds the best to me? you'd think I know that last one, but when it comes to bass... I wish I could discern all this better. Anyone else's experience deciding volume would be welcome.
You shouldn't hear the subs, at all. They should just make your speakers sound enormous, in terms of dynamic range as well as depth. It's hard to tell what you are describing but it sounds like really poor integration.
First, check the placement. Look at the AM Acoustics room mode simulator and try to keep your subs and speakers out of the lowest octaves. Next, measure. Use Room EQ Wizard or OmniMic to see what the response looks like from your listening room. There should be no gaps or excess peaks, but listeners often prefer an elevated shelf below 100 Hz.
String tone of any basic frequency is always a function of the fundamental and it's harmonics which vary from instrument to instrument. Otherwise a given frequency, bass or not would sound the same from every string instrument. To speake about string tone without the harmonics, or indeed any instrument without its harmonics makes no sense.
I have ATC SCM19's, Musical Fidelity M6si, Lumin D1 streamer and a Denafrips Ares II dac.
I use four subs connected to the MF via MiniDSP 2x4.
I am still tweaking the setup because the speakers a relatively new to me and I have reconfigured my listening space. Despite this the low end sounds very good to me, but I certainly appreciate your frustration. There is such a range of bass content and quality in music that it's hard to tell if an imbalance is your system or the sound mix. Either way I don't think anything but the lowest tones should be unrecognizable or boomy. If they are, it might be a result of the placement of the subs, the room itself or a combination of both.
Also, I am curious about what you feel is a "very challenging room"?
The basic method mentioned by @erik_squiresis going to be the most productive for most people. But you can get an idea of what your low end frequency response curve might look like by using something like the "Tone Pak" by Bass Mechanik just to get an idea of general areas where your bass is to loud or too soft. It’s basically just level normalized test tones from 2hz to 50hz. Tedious, but helpful and ultimately educative for most people, I would think.
Note: don't keep a single sine wave going at even moderately loud decibel levels for an extended period because it can damage your sub.
I would set the volume on the sub with test tones and a DB meter for starters then adjust to taste after that.
I set my subs ruler flat and let the wife listen. She said there was no bass?!? So I adjusters it for her by taste and she ended up 10db hot lol!
As for sub setup. If you can not highpass the -6 or -10db point of your speakers is probably the place to start. The -3 might have too much over lap. A test tone/DB meter will save a lot of messing around.
I think a highpass is well worth the effort. You can then just pick a frequent where both the subs and speakers work well. I have found it is best to use the 3db point of the woofer NOT the speaker as a whole. For ported speakers this cuts out the port and for sealed it minimizes boundary gain and you can get a cleaner sound. All in all it does not matter as long as you enjoy it. I stopped carrying about “correct” a long time ago. You can have all the other audiophile stuff and a frequency response that you enjoy.
Yeah, almost no normal person is going to choose a ruler flat response. It’s really only an hypothetical ideal. We all have preferences which are also affected by offensive acoustical issues.
My room has a slanted wall of windows in front of the speakers, closer to one than the other. Beside that is a rounded wall of windows. The view is wonderful--no chance of drapes. The ceiling is quite high, vaulted, octagonal, with long beams breaking up the surface. Three open areas are contiguous. There is only one wall to place a system and the speakers can’t be more than 18" from the wall to the back of them. The subs can only be next to the mains. There is no sidewall and only a partial wall behind one main. The other is next to a staircase. The wall behind the two mains is composed of different material. The other walls are veneered plywood.
We do have carpeting and the lower part of the windows are obscured at random with furniture, etc.
Despite all that, there’s really good off-axis sound, the speakers and subs disappear, and I’m generally happy with my system, which is a big step up from what I had before.
It’s an amazing home in a beautiful spot, no matter how anything sounds.
I interpret this as "lower midrange issues" at frequencies that are cirtical to your listening. The lower mid is difficult to get "right" in that we are asking the speaker to be both agile (detail) and powerful (moving lots of air) at the same time. At these frequencies controlling the cone movement during long(er) excursions is no easy task. Frequency response is measured at the factory at 1 watt @ 1 meter, which is at a very low STATIC volume level. Now, introduce dynamic elements into the equation and you may find that as speaker that measured -6 db at 48Hz is far below that mark when high energy is sent to the driver. It may fall well behind the other midrange frequencies and sound "anemic". I call this "pinching the midrange" whereby the bandwidth changes relative to speaker output. When powered subs are added to the system, they are happy filling in those deficient frequencies abandoned by the midrange and can become quite dominant. This produces sonic "warts" that will not only bring attention to the subs, but the subs are not as good as the mains in producing detail in those areas.
I did a quick search for your speakers and appears that ATC makes some pretty nice stuff. The spec you mentioned of -6db @48Hz is interesting in that -3db is a typical published spec. -3db represents the point where HALF of the energy is gone (it would take twice the power, or twice as many speakers to flatten it out). That’s pretty significant. -6db is 3 db below that point, so your missing half again as much sound at that frequency. Not seeing a graph, I can only speculate at this, but it appears that you COULD have compromised lower midrange at 100Hz, or even higher. That being said, it’s not a matter of what frequency instruments change from music to sound, but rather your speaker’s ability to produce BOTH detail and acoustical energy at those frequencies. This task, then, is handed over to the subs (and, depending on the sub) may, or may not do a good job of sending the signal out into the listening room in good shape. The room could be a factor here as well.
I’d try turning off the subs and listening to your mains full range at moderate volume levels to see if the lower midrange musical detail, body and richness are there. If so, it’s a matter of dialing in the sound of the subs for best sound quality (probably subs set lower than you have them set currently). If these sonic elements are missing, you may want to do some speaker shopping.
@m669326 To answer your question, any frequency. When you listen just the bass, it most likely not going to sound natural. For example a double bass can go as low as 31hz(E1), or 5 string guitar. Almost every instrument has overtones that make is sound like it is intended to sound, natural and realistic. The same concept applies to sub and speaker integration. In a well integrated sub should give intention to self.
I believe the correct question and answer is at what frequency is it NO LONGER a musical note produced by an instrument (Not synthesized). I must bring up my own speaker design as an example of what should be heard. I can clearly get down to somewhere around 45 to 50 Hz without any indication of straining on my 20 year old design using 8 drivers. I do own a sub of my own design but it delivers ONLY the nonsense that the Movie makers like to promote and I seldom even turn on the amp for the sub. All instruments capable of producing such lows have their own unique tonal qualities and resonances. You shouldn't even have to pick out just one instrument. If I were forced to choose one and only one It would be the Chinese drums and even then I have found only one sample that even comes close to qualifying for the title of best/lowest bass. I would suggest that if your speakers aren't producing that beautify unique sound of an actual instrument then there is a serious deficiency in your system at some point.
If yo jump in here at abut 52 minute point you will catch a lot of 52 HZ and nearby harmonics and I even saw the graph dip down to about 45 Hz at a few points.
At the level of equipment I use, what matters most to me is if I can discern actual notes instead of just low rumbles and thumps. One of my go to sound tracks for bass is One od Emmylou Harris's more obscure albums called "Thirteen". She does her version of Bruce Springsteen's "My Father's House" which has a synthesizer doing a pretty convincing imitation of a pipe organ.
Speaking of thumpers, I'm glad to see that the Hip hop car thumper bass craze has mostly subsided.
The part of the audio spectrum that makes a note sound like an instrument rather than just a sound is contained mostly in the harmonics. Depending on your crossover point a vast majority of the harmonics are going to be reproduced by your mains and not your subs so it stands to reason that the lower the note the less definition there will be. Also if the bass you are listening to is being created by an electric bass guitar and that player is using flat wound strings you are going to get less definition because flat wound strings have a much weaker harmonic structure.
@waytoomuchstuff IMO the way ATC rolls off the low frequencies is better than the usual way. They roll off slowly starting at a higher frequency. This is probably a marketing disadvantage but in most practical situations it's a plus. A speaker that slowly rolls off the bass has far fewer troubling room bass problems while still being capable of great punch and greater dynamics than a speaker that tried to be flat to 30 or 40hz. It allows you to place them where they're optimal for the rest of the frequency spectrum and fill in with subwoofers what isn't there. I've got a pair of custom built 110s I bought used about 10 years ago. I've had them in in at least 5 locations and they're very easy to just set and forget. The 3 inch mid doesn't have the beaming issues a larger driver would so the in-room response is good and they don't upset room nodes nearly as much as you might expect.
My guess is the room has much more to do with making strings sound like just a note than the speaker. Most rooms have huge peaks and valleys in the deep bass. I 15db resonance peak will swamp the texture and that peak will be different in every room.
Bass is a very subjective thing! I used to have a pair of Klipschorns and what I found was the base response was so low and went through the walls in the floor that it wasn’t truly clear and accurate! What you have to remember is that the vibration of a string is not a constant! There’s slight pitch variations in each note played on the bass! At the same time this will vary from bass to bass! Also, it does depend on the player and how he strikes the note whether it is with a bow ,fingers, or a pick! All of those determine the sound! Also with a bass string there is a certain amount of decay so if your system sounds like a tone but during the decay starts to gain detail you would adjust for turning bass back! What I think you are referring to or at least I referred to as as mud! It just sounds like a tone, but it doesn’t have realism! I always opt for realism over depth of tone, anytime! But whatever you prefer, works for you! Trust your ears, and what your ears have learned over the years what is preferable to you and soothe your soul!
Great thread. FWIW my combo of Wharfedale Heritage Lintons and REL T5i connected with Mogami cables, including speaker-level custom Neutrik to the sub, is a dream date. Easy to make the sub disappear. The REL volume knob is click equipped, so I keep it at one setting for daily casual listening…and turn it one click lower volume for louder active listening events, LOL REL set to roll off at about 55 Hz on upper end. Vintage recapped Crown PS-200 pushes 135 +/- wpc into 4 ohms.
The Lintons and the REL have similar drivers - fast/tight 8” woofers which I unscientifically think helps them blend.
The low E-string on a bass guitar is usually tuned to 41.2 Hz, while the lowest note on a standard piano is A at 27.5 Hz. The harmonics are all multiples. Anything less than 27Hz except for a Gravitone - a resultant 64' flue (a 32' stop combined with a 21+2⁄3' stop, which is a fifth, producing a difference tone of 8 Hz on low C.). That's the basement.
I brought the low pass filter down 8 and lowered the volume by several clicks. I think things are better. When I play tracks that I know have low, clear, string-sounding notes, it’s marvelous. It’s hit or miss on random tracks, which is about the recording itself, I guess.
Where you put the subs also makes a big difference in the sound. I only have one and it’s 6’ behind my listening position. On 99% of the music I play, I can’t tell it’s there.
@m669326 "I have a hell of a time determining where to set the sub volume. Which result reflects the recording's intent? How did they mean to balance the bass with the rest? And what sounds the best to me? you'd think I know that last one, but when it comes to bass... I wish I could discern all this better. Anyone else's experience deciding volume would be welcome."
My first question would be regarding how you came to positioning your subs? If one or both of them are in your rooms nulls you may be needlessly pushing them to compensate the null. Beyond that consider this:
While not unique, SVS's remote controlled volume and its customizable presets are stunningly deficit among the majority of consumer subwoofer processing. So its not surprising the majority of the heartfelt suggestions and experiences are likely by those who simply do not have these remote features at hand.
As a Bassist its very rare that the original recording of my instrument makes it past post production without it being embellished. With more consideration this would be true of recordings by most Bassist and Drummers.
I think you actually answered your own question by touching on the subjectivity in the recordings, our systems and ultimately our individual taste. SVS enables your subjectivity well beyond those who must set up their low frequency systems for a generically single presentation which serves all their listening. You have the option.
I can remotely control the volume up for Hip Hop, down for a delicate presentation or use the six custom equalized presets that suit my taste. There are certain LP's that simply sound better with the subs off. Inexplicably, I have yet to find a digital production were that was the case.
The only places for the subs are just inside the main speakers, or just outside the main speakers. I have them just inside simply because that makes it easier to walk around the array, given some other room elements.
One of the reasons I got the SVS subs was the ability to control them remotely, from my seating position.
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