Why do some think "music" (not gear, trading, etc.) is the ultimate end?

@ musicfan2349

Wow Bozak Concert Grands...brings back a bunch of memories.  I loved those speakers.  I'm willing to bet they were paired with McIntosh.  Was
very classic for the period.

Warm Regards,
barts 

@fuzztone -- thanks. We're good. Appreciate the follow up.

If music was against the law☆☆☆☆☆

I've always been pretty meticulous and particular when auditioning new equipment for purchase. I do so to avoid buyer's remorse about installing equipment into my system that doesn't provide the sonic benefits or improvements I was expecting. Though I can appreciate that some people love the thrill of trying out something new, auditioning equipment by doing A/B testing and having to switch equipment in and out of my system is frankly a pain in the butt for me. But, I continue to do it every so often when I make a change to my system. My philosophy on getting new equipment is do it once, get it right, and move on.

With equipment in place that sounds good to me, hearing both music I know and new music provides me with both the enjoyment and novelty that I seek. As an example of my preferences and typical equipment purchase pattern, high quality music streaming has been a revelation for me and is motivating me to build a new digital front end to play streaming music at least decently well. I've never owned a great CD player, but the ability to listen to tens of thousands of new artists via Qobuz streaming is a radically different and valuable new experience for me. Some people may be most excited by getting and trying new equipment; I am motivated by listening to music reproduced more insightfully. I wouldn't claim that one is better than another...we are all wired differently.

@hilde45- I think thread has transcended the usual banter here, and asked some hard questions about the "why" of it-- our universe, small as it may be within the world at large, offers a huge number of paths to pursue.
To me, the issue is exposure. To music, to systems, and the process of learning. I was struck by a book I happened on while killing time in Boston one day, called "The Perfect Wrong Note." It’s really a meditation on why musicians are taught by rote and calls into question how music is learned by students, suggesting that a player who has a tendency to play a wrong note can learn from that experience. It’s a little "zen" but a worthwhile read.
I started in this hobby’s first (or second, depending on how you count it) golden age- in the late ’60s when solid state was replacing tubes and records were still a mainstream medium. Even at that time, there was a tier of equipment that was priced beyond what most could afford, but promised a level of performance that was revelatory. Much was promoted in the U.S. by Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound fame, and in a slightly more grounded way by J. Gordon Holt, of the original Stereophile. (There were many magazines available at the time, some quite good, that offered more technical articles as well as consumer fodder for the casual or aspirational reader). The goal, as it was stated at the time, was to assemble something that resembled real music and short of that, something that accurately reproduced the recording.
The first goal is almost impossible in my experience. It works best with small scale stuff, not full orchestras and with fairly simple, uncluttered musical passages. In my experience, a lot of systems suffer some form of congestion when things get busy or complex and the illusion of "real" falls down.
The alternative, being true to the recording, is equally elusive. Few of us have had the opportunity to sit in on an actual recording session and compare it to the resulting recording, particularly after it has been mixed down and made available as released product. (Listening to playback in the booth over studio monitors from the rolling tape-- and here I date myself-- isn’t the same as listening to the record). And a lot of records sound good not because they are made simply- to the contrary, there is a fair amount of studio gimmickry that goes into making something that sounds "natural."
Jules Coleman, who was a professor of jurisprudence (the philosophy of the law) wrote some interesting things before he retired, one of which questioned the primacy of "accurate" reproduction as a false ideal. I refer to him here only because I think he tries to unravel an assumption most of us have about the role of accuracy in hi-fidelity reproduction: [url]https://thevinylpress.com/listening-to-recorded-music-a-rumination/[/url]
Coming back to the choice of paths, there are many-- with the current plague, we aren’t free to visit showrooms, people’s homes or take in live shows, but that will pass. Listening to as many different systems as possible is not only revealing of strengths but of weaknesses of various systems and that’s instructive too.
We used to have audio clubs, which do still exist in a few cities in the States and perhaps abroad, but much of the kibitzing is now done on chat boards like this, rather than in person. (We didn’t necessarily accomplish much at this meetings, apart from whatever the featured demonstration was-- it was largely a social thing, a chance to swap records, and casually chat and see folks that shared a common interest). The Internet has many advantages, one being worldwide reach and the ability to find things that are not readily within your immediate circle, geographically or socially, but it does have a certain flatness to it, compared to meeting in person.
I know of no one who is expert in all the things associated with our hobby- there are so many niches just to Western music alone that one could devote one’s life just to the study of one performer or composer (not an entirely uncommon thing).
I guess, at bottom, my point is that if you are just really starting out in this hobby, the best thing you can do for yourself once this Covid thing passes is to get out there and experience as much as you can-- by way of prerecorded music, live performances, attendance at seminars, trade shows (a good place for the audio minded to socialize and meet some of the manufacturers). I was never particularly skilled at mechanical and engineering things, so that’s another deep dive. I can read technical papers with some modest understanding and ask questions of people with more knowledge than I have. 
You could look at it as acquisitiveness, but the acquisition of knowledge, rather than "things." (Though I have lived life as an ardent materialist and still have a substantial record collection). Indeed, that takes us to yet another branch, the collection of recordings, which is yet another aspect of this hobby or overlaps with it. And is itself a vast subject, with many different niches of knowledge.
I treat all of this as an adventure at this point, given my stage in life- I’m retired, my systems are relatively mature, and I have the time to explore and learn. It’s hugely rewarding and I wish the same for you.
regards,
Bill Hart

@whart Thank you for your eloquent post, and the reference. I’m wanting to write about the experience of listening in an age of technological distraction from the point of view of philosophy, so this is an important thread on which I can pull. My question here is meant to elicit statements which may limn the different value systems people bring to the hobby. In part, it helps me reflect on the excitement and curiosity I still feel for the gear, even though my system is assembled. (E.g. "Why do I still care about the gear? I'm done!" That kind of question.) 

@musicfan2349
It seems in your experience, you found something that was most important of all. 

I would really have loved to been in that room with you for that 2112 spin I'll tell ya.

@hilde45-- You are asking a question that I’m not capable of answering-- it seems to deal with psychology to a large degree. Why are some people deeply engaged by a pursuit and others only have a passing interest? I’m excluding the "I’m not interested at all" but instead focusing on why one person may shop for a stereo, learn enough or rely on advice of friends or a salesperson and be done with the pursuit, happy to utilize the equipment ---as in your example of a toaster-- (I have yet to find a good one these days), where others get bitten by the bug and really do a deep dive into the particular field where it becomes a hobby or passion.
I think in many past threads we’ve already excluded attention getting as a factor-- having a cool car as a poseur is certainly an easier way to attract attention than "wanna hear my stereo?" So, in some ways, the analogy to cars, and perhaps to other hobbyist pursuits fails. (Most car guys I knew were hardcore enthusiasts, not
poseurs, and a lot were capable of turning a wrench).
I suspect it has something to do with a passion that gets fulfilled. There was a guy who collected model trains- his entire basement in Pasadena was walls of enclosed glass shelves with various trains, along with a large model railroad set up. I doubt he did this to attract a mate, or draw attention to himself. There was some need that this fulfilled. Perhaps somebody qualified to speak to this aspect of the human experience can offer insight. I tend to go overboard on most things I do-- it’s sort of my nature if something draws my attention enough.
Of course, there are many things about which I’m completely ignorant. I enjoyed watching Queen’s Gambit knowing I can’t remember even the basics of chess.
My interest in music goes back to my earliest years. I can read, and play but these days rarely do so; I was involved in the industry but at a remove (as outside counsel) and do like gear. So, I can answer the question for myself. But, for others? I think we wind up back at the personal history/background/exposure thing-- and truth be told, both my profession and my interest in this hobby happened to coincide because of my fascination with music. I heard music in my head that I wanted to play but I never considered myself gifted in the way some musicians are--and if you asked them, I’m not sure they could give you a clear answer as to their prowess. Their ability to express themselves came through the music itself (though some are quite articulate).
Not sure most of this is on point, but it’s kind of hard to sum up humanity, passion and creativity in an Internet post. It’s an elusive thing--and one that is endless in the sense that a creative person is always looking forward until they reach an age where they are unable to call upon their gifts anymore. (I had the pleasure of hearing Glenn Campbell on that Goodbye Tour or whatever it was called and it was apparent that he wasn’t all there mentally, but he still had the muscle memory-- his playing was inspired). Sorry to leave this on a bittersweet note- but we all only have so much time-- and that may be a driver of passion too-- the knowledge that all of us are mortal and can only have so much time and energy to pursue whatever it is that makes life worthwhile.

For me the audiophile journey has always been 50-50. I love my music and my gear. The goal has always been to get the best possible sound within a budget that didn’t require selling my soul to the devil, while getting damn close! But it can’t just sound good. I have to really enjoy looking at it even when I’m not listening to it. I love it when non-audiophiles walk in, see it and say "WOW".

I certainly enjoy the music, but I also enjoy dusting and polishing the my equipment, so I guess I can understand both.  If I had technical knowledge, I would probably enjoy testing and replacing the electrolytics (I would jump on buying equipment if I knew how to test and service them).   There must be something to the allure of those blue meters on the Macs, right?

I enjoy watching the equipment review videos, and I also enjoy watching the stereo equipment repair videos, especially those by xraytonyb, even though there are a lot of technical things he talks about that are totally foreign to me (my ex-gf said I was “weird” to watch stuff like that, but I find it interesting).  

It's gotta be easier to have a couple walls packed with vinyl, a hard drive full of downloads and a subscription to Tidal or Qobuz than it might be to keep a closet (warehouse?) full of gear at the ready and suitably warmed up.  Not to mention the sheer time it might take to install that particular cartridge you believe is the magical device that'll bring your Casino Royale soundtrack to bigger, better life.  Then again, just last week I put the word to Jeeves.  "Jeeves! I wish to hear Love over Gold!  Order my golden-eared musclemen to hook up and position my Magicos!"

Hello,
I am a gear and music audiophile. I would love to hear all of your systems. Just to experience the differences between the sounds.  I have driven some nice cars. The experience was different in each. A Porsche does not drive like a Ferrari. A corvette does not drive like a Mustang. I’m still driving, but it’s a different experience. Tube or solid state? Vinyl, SACD, or stream it? They all sound different. As long as the recording was done well it’s all good. I have to say I love listening to music. Any time I can experience that music in a different way excites me because it is new. I have Pink Floyd’s, Dark Side of The Moon in UHCD, SACD, Vinyl 2018, Mofi Vinyl, and CD, they all sound different, not bad, just different. 

Great audio club name: “golden-eared musclemen”

I don't think listening to music, no matter how noble that may be, is classifyable as a hobby. Hobbies are related to things one does, gets absorbed in and that count as an activity.

Jeeves- interesting viewpoint. Anything that involves "collecting" while an activity during the hunt, is ultimately passive, e.g. film collecting, record collecting, stamps, baseball cards. (though some of those "hobbies" are in reality, money making enterprises, or involve trading, but leave that aside).
Is buying equipment a hobby--going to a store, or website, writing out the check or filling in the cc payment? Set up is an activity, but once that’s done, unless you are constantly tweaking, it’s passive.
Not sure it really matters at the end of the day what you call this way of occupying time or interest (or spending money). I can tell you I exercised a lot of muscles the other day moving around quite a few stacks of records. :)

PS: for me, a lot involves research and reading about the recordings, the performers, the sessions, etc. And some writing. All of that is an activity, though pretty sedentary. As to being "absorbed," I think that depends on the degree of involvement and time spent. 
Bill

It would be interesting to contrast "active" vs. "passive" listening. Some listening -- like some viewing, e.g. of art works in a museum -- is quite an active thing to do. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2007/07/music-moves-brain-to-pay-attention-stanford-study-fin...

One difference between the pursuit of music and sound is that the pursuit of music won’t drive you crazy.

@rvpiano -- good one! Although, I have met some pretty obsessive Deadheads who followed the band around, tried to acquire every live recording, set list, etc.

If your love of music is not the object, you might as well collect stamps, or watches.

@danvignau The question asked "on what grounds does one assert that?" Care to elaborate what your reasons for asserting it are?  

Someone asked for my raison d'etre for my post, but I can't even find my post:   I said that if music is not the object, one might as well be collecting stamps or watches.  Let me put it more succinctly:  As a psychologist, my highly opinionated reasoning is that some people are so insecure that they are never satisfied, and never will be.  Too many of them (US?) who are possessed demononic Audiophilia, could simply listen to the music, and tryd to learn about more music.  Then, after many years of this music therapy, they could lose some of their hoarding symptoms and insecurity, and then live a relatively normal life.  Unfortunately, from the music list in another post, I believe many of those who are afflicted are neurotically stuck in the 1970's, for example, furiously trying to make their old music sound better, when there is a whole world of music to explore. TeeHee

@danvignau  Thanks for clarifying: either "demononic audiophilia" with neurotic music tastes or relatively normal love-of-music.

danvignau -- Yeah, I get a kick out of the '70's music obsession here.  But be nice! Call it "predilection." 

edcyn,  You are very nice. Point taken!

If it wasn't for the enjoyment of music, I'd likely not own the stuff I do.

Given that the bulk of it isn't SOTA (the 'purpose-built' computer that links some of it together being the exception), I tinker with my penchant for DIY'ing Walsh speakers, rather than the 'system' as a whole.

In that regard, one could say that's my 'hobby' aspect.
If it wasn't for music, eclectic as my 'tastes' go, I wouldn't bother with any of it.

Listening to music on said system is the primary function of it.  It's been set up to wreak the 'best possible' from it, within the knaves' budget that's driven the collection.  I suspect having the kings' ransom to put towards it would mostly make it appear a tad more acceptable to some elements of the gathered readers here.  But it's 'end function' would remain the same.

I listen to what I enjoy listening to, on equipment that allows for a 'certain level of competance' to do so.

It's quiet @ 'idle'; has no 'quirks' that 'get in the way' of listening to anything I care to listen to, which is what I like to 'do' with it.

The only 'critical listening' performed with it is to see what my diy efforts are yielding.  That's where/when/how it functions as an instrument towards an end.  I can tell when the 'upstream' engineers have been lazy or lax, when compression exists (or not), or the recordings suffer from the existing technology of the time.

But I don't let that get in 'the' or 'my' way of just enjoying listening to the music it reproduces.

There are other concerns in my existence that demand OCD-level attention.  Entertainment is a means of recovery from those activities.

Good thread, BTW.  Not too much negativity so far....;)

Enjoy what you may, J

@asvjerry Thanks for your answer. Something you made me think about is that music is a necessary condition for having audio equipment and skills to use it at all. (This is obvious.) Then again, the need for fuel is a necessary condition of having cooking equipment and skills, too. Recipes, techniques, and the "joy of cooking" are now just assumed as normal parts of the preparation of fuel (nutrition) and someone could say "I love to eat good food but I enjoy preparing it even more" and many wouldn’t bat an eye. What got this thread going for me was the notion that when people say "I love to listen to music but I enjoy the gear and techniques even more" there are more than a few who see the focus away from music as being a sign of something wrong. As I’ve said before in this thread, I’m not saying any particular valuation is right or wrong. I’m more interested in understanding the nearly automatic response (of some) that music is the *only* plausible ultimate value.

The problem of my constant upgrading, is that I may never be able to get back to the point of listening to music PURELY for itself without adulterating it with the scourge of “good sound.”
Very sad.

My eyes are too glazed over to pore over every post here, but it's probably been said many times in this thread that the better the sound quality, the closer we audio nerds get to the music's emotional essence.

The OP’s question is a very valid one.  Continuing my last post, I realize that occupying so much time and effort on improving your system, it’s practically impossible to ignore it while listening to your music.  It inevitably worms it’s way into your consciousness (or unconscious) rendering concentration on the music only partial.
If you can let that not happen, more power to you.
I can’t!

Mmm, now that's an interesting and compelling comparison....the pursuit of excellence in cooking vs. the reproduction of ones' music...*s*...

One is the daily need for sustenance...basic through luxurious.
The other, a need to feed a different form of hunger that also has its' own span of satiation....;)

Both exhibit a 'range' of means towards their ends:
-Cooking over an open fire, the fare suspended on a green stick....to a 'full boat'  kitchen, with the 'hi-end' stove, fridge, utensils, et al...
-The bedside clock radio 'kick-starting' ones' day through the monoblock amps driving 2001 monolith-scaled speakers, the entire affair rivaling the cost of a very well-appointed Mercedes....*L*

Both fill a need....but existence precedes essence.

One can live without music, after all.  A somewhat bleak future to contemplate in a dystopian someday, but I suspect even the most jaded audiophile stripped of the 'mega-system' would pick up sticks and tap out a rhythm to scratch the itch while bbq'ing the days' catch....

"Life Before the Comet" hits the Top Ten of Fireside Chants....coming to a drum circle near you! *wry chuckle*

It all started out that way, after all....and I find contemplation of When The Music Started.... and Why....interesting on multiple levels...

When did the sound of rocks and sticks with early versions of 'raps' and yowls give way to...perhaps something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRg_8NNPTD8

...sans the amplification, of course....;)

Obviously, the emotional 'drive' to create and experience 'music' has deep roots within the human experience, considering that it's existence is pretty universal....at least, on this tiny rock in the void....

...and the noise kept the wolves away....*G*

All in fun, J

  I am not sure why the angst over the original question.  For me it is simple.  If I had to choose between hearing the music I love on a less than optimal system, vs having to listen to music that I dislike on a great system, I'd pick the former
every time.  Fortunately I don't have to make that choice, and certainly I enjoy how great gear enhances that music.   Now, if there really are people that appreciate great gear but don't like music, I am not going to stop them, although I would be puzzled by their choice

For me it is simple. If I had to choose between hearing the music I love on a less than optimal system, vs having to listen to music that I dislike on a great system, I’d pick the former
every time.

@mahler123
Nice to hear your thinking on this, but that’s not the original question. The original question is why do some dismiss the love of gear by the tactic of making music an ultimate end. Your answer is to a different and much easier question -- but I'm still glad you posed it because it opens more doors.

Listening music is a spiritual endeavour, like mathematics or poetry...

Listening music not only give enjoyment, like collecting cadavers when you are a good sniper, or female bodies if you are a pimp,or cars or gear or postal stamps; listening music can and must transform the soul coming from the spirit....

Then audiophile hobby is not essentially collecting gear, not even implementing the rightful controls of the 3 embeddings for any audio system, it is listening music first with the wish to listen to it with the optimal sound experience possible....


Music is more than only pastime enjoyment, it can be also therapeutical, and it can liberate our limited senses and by a cenestesic miracle propel our soul to the spirit world where all our senses merge in an interpenetrating one....



« At the end music is no more incoming waves of sound»- Groucho Marx thinking about the deaf Beethoven

For me its about enjoying music that I like to the maximum possible level. If I could listen to every song I play at a concert (in a good venue) with non-animal fans showing up, that's nirvana. Unfortunately, many of my records are by artists that are no longer with us, so it's impossible. Other than that, it's how can I come as close to that experience as possible? Most live albums are not recorded well, but when you find them....BINGO. Otherwise well recorded, mastered and pressed studio albums will have to do. 

To do that you need an excellent stereo and high quality records (some would say streaming or RTR or HiRez DLs or SACDS or whatever, but that's not the point here) to come as close to that experience as possible.

To the hardware fetishists/collectors, insanely obsessed tweakers, record collectors (or should I say investors) who never play or even open them, constant upgradeitis victims with monopoly money to blow (or sadly not like I was in college), or those who listen to the same thing over and over to hear "the wire" and not the music, I'm not going to criticize you. It's a free country (and mostly free world) so whatever floats your boat. BTW, at times I can be all of the above.

I will mention that my son loves music (he is out of college and off the payroll, so he is in control of his finances), and likes a lot of the music that I like +rap, and just got his first hifi system. It's an $8 speaker he bought at Walmart to play music from his iPhone. He asks me why I care so much about the sound - he can hear the music just fine and it worked great when the had a few people over. I recently sold an older amp and preamp I was saving for him because I knew it was hopeless (he knew I had it for him and all he needed was a source box and speakers and didn't care)....If he does ever become interested in music sound quality and wants to spend judiciously, he can go explore some used equipment. And he has someone to help him.

hilde45 I disagree. The point of Zen and The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is that the mechanical aspect worked along with the ride to cement the bond between father and son.  Without the ride, the maintenance, much less the bike, is worthless, as is audio equipment without the music.

We can agree to disagree on what "the point" is of the book. A few key passages point me toward my judgment. 

Pirsig: “A classical understanding sees the world primarily as underlying form itself. A romantic understanding sees it primarily in term of immediate appearance. If you were to show an engine or a mechanical drawing or electronic schematic to a romantic it is unlikely he would see much of interest in it. Is has no appeal because the reality he sees is its surface. Dull, complex lists of names, lines and numbers. Nothing interesting. But if you were to show the same blueprint of schematic or give the same description to a classical person he might look at it and then become fascinated by it because he sees that within the lines and shapes and symbols is a tremendous richness of underlying form.

The romantic mode is primarily inspirational, imaginative, creative, intuitive. Feelings rather than facts predominate. “Art” when it is opposed to “Science” is often romantic. It does not proceed by reason or by laws. It proceeds by feeling, intuition and esthetic conscience. […]

The classic mode, by contrast, proceeds by reason and by laws – which are themselves underlying forms of thought and behavior. […]

Although surface ugliness is often found in the classic mode of understanding it is not inherent in it. There is a classic esthetic which romantics often miss because of its subtlety. The classic style is straightforward, unadorned, unemotional, economical and carefully proportioned. Its purpose is not to inspire emotionally, but to bring order out of chaos and make the unknown known. It is not an esthetically free and natural style. It is esthetically restrained. Everything is under control. Its value is measured in terms of the skill with which this control is maintained.

To a romantic this classic mode often appears dull, awkward and ugly, like mechanical maintenance itself. Everything is in terms of pieces and parts and components and relationships. Nothing is figured out until it’s run through the computer a dozen times. Everything’s got to be measured and proved. Oppressive. Heavy. Endlessly grey. the death force.

Within the classic mode, however, the romantic has some appearances of his own. Frivolous, irrational, erratic, untrustworthy, interested primarily in pleasure-seeking. Shallow. Of no substance. Often a parasite who cannot of will not carry his own weight. A real drag on society. By now these battle lines should sound a little familiar.

This is the source of the trouble. Persons tend to think and feel exclusively in one mode or the other and in doing so tend to misunderstand and underestimate what the other mode is all about. But no one is willing to give up the truth as he sees it, and as far as I know, no one now living has any real reconciliation of these truths or modes. There is no paint at which these visions of reality are unified.

And so in recent times we have seen a huge split develop between a classic culture and a romantic counterculture – two world growingly alienated and hateful toward each other with everyone wondering if it will always be this way, a house divided against itself. No one wants it really – despite what his antagonists in the other dimension might think.”

To go way deeper than with Pirsig in the same direction, try Jean Gebser, "the ever present origin" and reading Julian Jaynes and Ernst Cassirer will do the rest of the job....

Classical and romantic, or left brain and right brain are surface manifestation of polarities deeply seated in the dynamic genesis history of consciousness...

Gebser, Cassirer, and Jaynes are all complementary works but perhaps a bit hard to read then i suggest this small book, very astounding one indeed : Owen Barfield, "saving the appearence" and more easy read than the three i recommended already : Iain McGilchrist: "the master and his emissary" will complement Barfield.....After these 2 you are ready for Gebser/Jaynes/Cassirer....

In one small book by the physicist Henri Bortoft, disciple of David Bohm: an explanation of Goethe vision and perception: "taken appearence seriously"... Understanding Goethe the greatest thinker since Plato and easily the more underestimated and difficult to understand anyway, is very helpful even if you read none of the books i suggest....Goethe was a supremum artist and his science understanding had 2 centuries in advance then.....😊

The best Christmas to you and to all.....

That book (Zen, etc) was popular around the time I was in college. Between the motorcycle angle and philosophy it seemed a natural for me, yet I never could get into it. Sometimes with time and experience things change and you find new meaning. But no. Thanks to the excerpt above I'm quite sure I was right to take a pass, and I care less and less for pretentious blather as the years go by. 

Pretentious blather is in the eye of the beholder. 

@mahgister I also like the aesthetics of John Dewey -- experience-based, interactive. "Classical" and "Romantic" are old labels meant to capture something, but they hardened and set people apart. That's his thrust, I think. Pirsig was pushing toward something like a more integrated view, a connective, dynamic way of seeing experience rather than pigeonholing ways of seeing. Good work done here: https://www.palgrave.com/gp/book/9781403974020

And yes! Have a great holiday.

Thanks hilde45...

Pirsig is an interesting writer and your recommendation is interesting...

Pirsig was pushing toward something like a more integrated view, a connective, dynamic way of seeing experience rather than pigeonholing ways of seeing.

You are right and it is the reason why i name few of my favorite to walk the same walk....

I only push the many writers i did recommend to go more on the same road, and Dewey was indeed one of the great american thinker with Peirce, and few others....

By the way the best friend of Goethe is a thinker in his own way and express very deep thinking about the polarities in his own way in a very simple and deep book : Schiller "on the aesthetic education of man" a pleasure to read...

Happy holiday to you and all....

What is this a philosophy, English or history class? If that was the subject of the OP, I surely would not have clicked in. Come on, I’m sure there are a lot of other forums out there that have readers who all want to hear about this stuff, but I would bet 5% or less Audiogoners do.

@sokogear There are many threads of an esoteric nature. No one compelled you to come back to this thread, to read it, to reply to it. You are free to leave, anytime. You clicked on it -- so what? You didn’t pay, you’re not contracted to check back. So don’t.

Many people are naturally philosophical and make philosophical observations all the time. I learn from them and I’m interested in hearing them. There have been some on this thread. You may resent the fact that you’re not inclined that way, but no one is forcing you, so...exit if you’re not interested. To each his/her own.

It remind me of my schoolyard teen years, when some objected about listening the words they dont understand or reacted to interest they dont like....My hate of crowd come from these years indeed....

Coming back to the OP matter, gear has no interest to me apart from their contribution to sound quality....
Music is a so deep subject that Stuart Hameroff says with Roger Penrose that the brain is more akin to an orchestra than to a computing device...

I know they are right because in the music the signification and the sound wave body make one complete unity.... This cenesthesy is already the perception of an encompassing reality.... In this sense the music is a multidimensional consciousness potential in the making.... A computation suppose that and his itself only the shadow of a more deep music.....It is not bad poetry when a great mathematician physicist, Michael Berry, call the prime distribution a musical event, not only a mere computational event....

Understanding music is akin to improve our conscious participation in the phenomenas flow in our own body and in the world that are always ONE anyway, and that are made one on another level for the conscious listening experience, and Pirsig outpassing the sterile subject /object customs and barrier is a walk in the right direction indeed....



:)

mahgister -- Love your post.  A true attempt to argue that meaning can indeed exist within a piece of music.

Thanks and merry christmas edcyn....😌

@hilde45-time is money and once clicking I go down a rabbit hole for curiosity. Seems as  if you are encouraging the divergence instead of sticking with your OP,  and mahgister is encouraging you with a back and forth.

My $.02, but note that I am still following....but not reading the complete “esoteric” posts.

@sokoogear Threads lead in many directions. It's like a conversation. Tangents sometimes lead interesting places. When they don't, I stop following or skip over, as is your strategy. To each their own. Peace.

Attention to gear and sound can take away from the pleasures of listening to music. 
It brings me great pleasure to analyse sound and enjoy beautiful amplifiers and speakers.
But often, as I concentrate on sound and gear, I find myself overlooking the music. 
It is important to strike a fine balance, always remembering that gear is the means and and music is the end.   
As much as I can enjoy playing with gear, it's the music that really fills my heart with infinite joy.  
Gear will give me great satisfaction, albeit at a different level.
A bit like comparing material and spiritual pleasures.