It's taking a slightly different slant on things, but with many of the people that I come across, if they consider me a whacko, then I take that as the kindest compliment. These people are so mainstream and so into the most mundane materialistic elements of life, that I want to be completely separated from them, both by distance and at an emotional level.
I pray that these people think me strange as it reaffirms my successful efforts in not being like them.
Viva La Whacko! (is whacko masculine or feminine?) |
So now NASCAR, the "Bose" of car racing, is used as the standard for engineering of race cars and motors! Frankly, Albert Porter, I thought that you would at least use F1 racing as a standard. If there were any advantages to "cyro" of spark plugs in F1 motors I think that we would have heard about it! NASCAR is Mid-Fi at best.
Salut, Bob P. |
Your right Bob, Joe Gibbs Racing, like Bose, has been very successful. Joe has won nearly $32,000,000.00 in just over a decade. Not bad for a small shop in the Carolinas. Joe Gibbs |
Even these rationalizations are geeky. |
Still, Joe Gibbs Racing doesn't build the ultimate racing motor any more than Bose makes the ultimate speakers. Using NASCAR as validation of techniques used in making "ultimate engines" is not very convincing. Maybe if BMW used "cyro" techniques on the spark plugs of their F1 racing engines that might have more weight with the skeptics! After all, BMW does make the "Ultimate driving machine".
Salut, Bob P. |
NASCAR does embrace the technology, regardless of whether you respect that part of the sport or not. So, race people DO CRYO treat spark plugs even if you do not approve of the team, the driver or the country they represent. This began with Eldartford post, If car buffs thought they could increase acceleration by Cryo treating their spark plugs, they would get the same treatment. Since NASCAR does embrace this technology, his comment was wrong just as he is wrong about it's value in high end audio. |
Very interesting thread and posts by people, certainly thought provoking.
I feel audio is a bit different from say, collecting watches, being interested in cars, boats, etc. I think the difference is that cars, boats and watches are ready made things, you buy them and they are ready to go or wear. Audio is different, its not ready made, you buy it and the actual work starts before you can actually derive full benefits. The work that has to go into audio is that you need to set it up and match everything in your room before you can get full potential from it, sorry full potential is also wrong to say on my part since nobody can really get it right, they may succeed to get it to sound good but not perfect.
This extra input required after you buy the stuff is more challenging than just selecting and buying it. There is a lot of hard work that goes into it. This is one thing ordinary people may not want to do.
I visit a watch forum, folks there buy watches and than the thing is over after they post their pics and everyone says "beautiful watch" or "awesome watch". The poor guy than starts looking for another watch and again post pics before people start praising the watch all over again. With audio it starts AFTER one buys the stuff.
I don't know if I have succeeded in getting my point across or not but I tried. :) |
No Albert, Eldartford is not wrong about "cryo"'s value in high end audio and it is only your opinion that he is wrong.
Stating that NASCAR uses a certain tecnology does not validate that technology any more than if BOSE embraced monster wire and that was used to validate the use of of that technology. That was my point.
And how did "nationalism" get into this thread?
Salut, Bob P. |
Since people are still throwing my name around, I think that I should be allowed to respond.
If you go back to my original posting which (as we seem to have forgotten) was about why the general population thinks we are "wackos") I cited belief in the miraculous results of Cryo as the sort of thing that get's us that reputation. My personal beliefs aside, it was the view of the general public to which I referred. I was not starting another Cryo argument. Been there, done that.
Perhaps I should have picked another example. "LPs are better than CDs". Most non-audiophiles would agree, but I don't think I could get that one by Albert!
Can anyone suggest an audiophile attribute that we all can agree makes us "wackos" in the eyes of others?
. |
Bob P. cryoing is not a matter of opinion, it can be heard, even if you can't measure it! While you're measuring the value of cryoing, can you weigh up a pound of Love, or a pint of joy for me? Or don't those things exist since they cannot be measured, only expereinced??? |
How about one audiophile baiting another with a statement he (eldartford) knows is not true? That sounds fairly wacko! |
Yeh, We argue endlessly about minutia that most ordinary folks can't envision, let alone hear. And, we do it with a sense of certainty and authority that boggles the mind. Talk about hearing flea farts in an auditorium! But its fun so long as its kept in prospective. :-) |
Quadophile
You are making the assumption that anyone who buys high end audio gear has to take the time to set it up themselves, work at tweaking it etc.
Here in the Big Apple, I know non drinkers who collect wine, non drivers who buy Porsches, and I have at least one ex girlfriend who pays people to DRY HER HAIR every morning.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think concerns about wasting a weekend terminating the ends of speaker cables and tweaking tube traps is what keeps them from rushing out and buying Magneplanars.
I have discussed this concept with certain members of this forum, and maintain my stance that high end audio should be no different from any other luxury item, and it is only so because of marketing and sales failure.
To review, I respectfully suggest that a $30,000 audio component might best be defined as a "luxury" -- regardless of the owners' underlying enthusiasm or experience with our hobby.
But no, for some reason, none of this is luxurious, it's simply "wacko".
A few questions for you to ponder: Do poseurs who order "Supple Leather" "tiptronic transmissions" and cup holders in their Porsche 911 Turbos even know what a "heel/toe" downshift is?
The London market has one of the highest per capita sales of cabriolet cars and Ferraris and Porsches are everywhere in South Kensington, an area where the it OFTEN RAINS and traffic averages 3 MPH?!?!?
But who cares!! ITS A PORSCHE, or a FERRARI, or an ASTON MARTIN.
How many Manhattan kitchens, buffed out with $50,000 of Viking ranges, Sub zero fridges, Thermidor Double Convection ovens, and authentic "Boos" butcher block counters never see any more "cooking" by their owners than opening a paper bag of chinese food? MANY, I can assure you.
But WHO CARES?! Because the place LOOKS amazing and fills its owner with pride and joy when they reach into their 8 foot stainless steel fridge for a mineral water when their neighbor drops by after her Pilates classes.
How many Rolex "Sea Dweller" wearers dive any deeper than their 4 foot deep, "infinity" lap pools?
Or indeed swim any deeper than their glass and polished nickel showers? I have one friend who wont even do that because he hates to clean soap out of the clasp?!
If you don't believe me, just ask the next Rolex Submariner wearer you see, how often he goes spear fishing or something and see what kind of a look that you get.
I have never met Albertporter, but from his posts I consider him to be a leading light in this obsession and a rare individual that is trying to make a change, reaching out to audiophiles and non audiophiles alike and promoting our hobby in a sophisticated and gentlemanly way.
Most of the audio industry, however, couldn't market its way out of a paper bag, except perhaps for the snake oil selling sharks who lurk in the shadows, prey on our endless fascination for all of this and who could never build a high quality, long term, repeat business market.
Most audio businesses are hopelessly stuck in the old model -- wackos selling to wackos.
Or even worse -- eccentric, condescending wackos arrogantly trying to convince affluent non wackos to BECOME wackos.
History has proven that trying to incubate audiophiles from American Express Black Cardholders who might wander into your emporium is a lousy business.
But year after year after year after year after year, the wacko lemmings trek to CES and stereophile shows, delicately placing a single long stem red rose on top of a mini monitor in an ugly hotel room, perhaps while letting their aesthetically challenged wife or girlfriend pursue her dream of becoming a "model" in their brochure, while at the same time desperately trying to convince fickle, sophisticated and not necessarily even rich enough to buy their product wackos like ourselves that their latest offering "blows away" yesterdays state of the art.
It is really, really sad.
This - and NOT the publics indifference to expensive, high performance products - is at the root of why most audio salesman don't drive Ferraris and why we are all considered weird.
If I sound pissed, it is because I am. Music and audio are wonderful, joyful things that everyone should enjoy and incorporate into their lives.
And in the meantime, BOSE and MP3 are taking over the world and moving us in the direction of the dinosaurs, not because they are any good, but because they are marketed by smart, tough businessmen who try to think like their customers -- however uneducated and misguided they might be -- and don't waste time trying to convince Mr and Mrs Rich and Glamourous that they should study up on the finer points of power cables.
If a high end audio "businessman" was somehow recruited to become the Chairman of Rolex, he would probably suggest revamping -- better yet perhaps cryoing (?) -- the swiss movements to improve the accuracy of the time 1/10000th of a second -- thereby "blowing away" last years model and competing watch manufacturers and diminishing their trade in value by 80%. Who in their right mind would even THINK of buying a Patek Phillippe ever again, when they improved it even more?!?!?
Another great idea -- the audiophile CEO of Rolex could offer their customers seminars and demonstrations on SCUBA diving. Surely this would increase the sales of Submariners and Sea Dwellers when 9 out of 10 of their customers become avid SCUBA enthusiasts.
Another essential, he could add disclosure documents inside every Rolex green leather and wood presentation box, explaining that all Rolexes require a "break in" period (typically a day or two longer than the warrantee period) before you should really judge whether or not its cryoed movement keeps time to within 1/10000th of a second. The boys in the returns and accounting departments will surely applaud that one.
Well, guess what? It's NOT about the TIME?!?! folks. And it's not about the number of feet that the a Submariner can be submerged under water.
It's about STATUS and BRANDING and LUXURY and QUALITY and PERCEIVED VALUE and FUN and STYLE and PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP and KEEPING UP WITH THE ZETA-JONES.
Now we wackos know that all of these things can be found by digging into the wonderful and quirky universe of high end audio products, but thanks to the elegant, charismatic geniuses running this industry, the public has NO IDEA and therefore could care less.
For years, I have been thinking about giving up my day job to correct this issue in the universe, and would therefore welcome ideas or private emails from any of you who might be interested in the subject or in getting involved.
OK, I feel better now.
Thank you for your time, thank you for listening and best wishes to all of you. |
Cwlondon, are you saying that most so-called audiophiles are not like all of those wonderful Rolex watch lovers et al. and therefore that is why they are called Wackos? |
Nrchy, I doubt that a NASCAR race driver can experience, as you say, the benefits of "Cryo" treated spark plugs and wires, let alone measure it! It is a common practice in racing to paint something yellow, usually the rear differential because that makes the car go faster. Maybe I should paint my speaker cones yellow and increase the transient response.
Salut, Bob P. |
Nrchy...What statement do you refer to? |
Correction..In my earlier posting I obviously meant to say that non-audiophiles would generally DISagree that LPs are better than CDs. |
Do you not read what you write? If not, you haven't missed anything! |
No wonder people think everyone is a Whacko, go listen to music, if you guys want to argue about NASCAR go to a NASCAR site................FOCUS |
To some, Cryo spark plugs and wires is music to their ears!
BROADEN your listening and music tastes. |
It is a well known fact that yellow paint has a lower coefficient of drag hence it's use on race cars. May also be the reason behind B&W's nifty yellow kevlar drivers. But that is beside the point.
As for the real point of this thread, why audiophiles are wackos and others with expensive hobbies aren't, re-read Cwlondon's post and stop there. |
I once read a study that concluded people who frequent topic specific internet chat sites tend to take more radical positions and make more extremist statements than they would in normal social interaction. Political conservatives become even biggest A-holes, Aryan supremacist become whiter and wine enthusiasts become even whinier. You get the drift. As audiophiles/music lovers we tend to magnify sonic minutiae and elevate its importance. One product inevitably blows away another. Take the recent thread on PMC vs. ATC speakers. It's hard to tell the products apart, yet two people argued at length over the huge differences between the speaker brands. Any sane outsider reading would of course assume the people are fairly wacko. Their intensity alone would alert normal people to that fact. But so what! It's people being insanely passionate about something that makes the world interesting. |
That fat guy in the Nordost ad dancing because he bought $3,000 Nordost speaker wire. |
I can distill Cwlondons comments down to a simple phrase..One cannot prove the worthiness of his/her dimentia through "proper marketing".Man invented mirrors for a reason. |
Brucegel
Oh my god! The veil has been ripped away?!
There is nothing more to discuss in this thread.
We are, in fact, "wackos". |
All thing find their level.Eveyone gets what they give.Its only about the music."Same as it ever was"(David Byrne) |
So CW, if audiophile only spend big $$$ for prestige and not perceived benefits we can appreciate we'd be okay. I.E. the people with $50,000 kitchens don't claim any benefit other than prestige are sane? I think you may be on to something but maybe notexpressed quite right.
Maybe there is a reason why marketing giants like Marantz and Sony either 1) don't sell or 2) got out of the high end. Instead now they only sell "midfi" stuff at "midfi" prices. Why do you think this is? Back in the day, Marantz sold the most expensive amp made but it was never reviewed. An old timer told me the stereo mag's couldn't afford to buy one to review :-).
I had the Fanfare $1,500+ tuner and my Marantz ST6000 for $279 smokes it for front end receiving strength and virtually EVERY spec on the spec sheet not to mention 2 antennae inputs and 60 presets (vs. 7). |
Thought all you "wackos" might enjoy this new thread that was directly inspired by this one. Marco |
CDC
In my view, people who can't cook but still spend $50,000 on a kitchen, or people who can't drive but still order Porsches with "Tiptronic" transmissions -- they are no more and no less sane than audiophiles who spend thousands speaker cables.
(If anything, I might argue that they are LESS sane, because in my thesis that only audiophiles care about audio, we assume that the audiophile, at least to some degree, USES the equipment.)
In the end, whether or not Mr and Mrs Super Rich Famous and Glamorous care about high end, I will still obsess over it, contribute to this forum and tweak the placement of my speakers into perfect equilateral triangles until I am dead and buried.
However, I maintain my position that audiophiles are "perceived as being wackos" (remember why we started this thread?) for no other reason other than wackos are the marketing face of the industry and have failed to create or associate any luxury goods cachet with their products.
I think this is unfortunate because it keeps the market small and contributes to the prejudices that started this thread.
Your comment about Marantz and Sony is a popular argument but here, too, I respectfully disagree.
GM may focus on minivans to the exclusion of 400 horsepower sports cars, but that doesn't negate Porsche's or Ferrari's ability to capture the imagination of the public, build genuine, successful businesses and/or become status symbols to aspirational, mass affluent consumers.
Like your $279.00 tuner, there are inexpensive Japanese cars that can be tweaked out to outperform a 911, but that fact isn't going to put Porsche out of business any time soon.
Oh...and one other thing: I was in SONY Style the other day on Madison Avenue and it seems that they, in fact, are catching on to this idea.
In the back of their showroom, in boutiquey little rooms, they now have insanely expensive, limited production headphones, digital cameras and other quirky overpriced and completely unnecessary products, far beyond the reach of our grubby wacko hands, displayed in huge vault like glass cases and marketing as their luxury sub brand: Sony Qualia.
Again, only the wackos have made this wacko.
Because actually, it is a joy, a luxury, and something that no one who can afford it should be without. |
Somewhere in all this coveting lets try and remember to give our wives and children a hug and tell them how much we love them.Unless you are a self absorbed single guy then you may rub the bubinga cabinet with a one hundred dollar bottle of purified tung oil. |
Brucegel
I give both my wife and son a hug at and tell them I love them as much as I possibly can.
If "wackos" weren't running the hi fi industry, then I might be the one getting more hugs and reassurance from my wife, despite the fact that there are six foot Magneplanar Tympani panels dominating our living room. |
Good to hear there is sanity out there.Peace. |
CWlondon, do you have any ideas how audio should be marketed? I'm commonly asked by non-audiophiles "Do you REALLY hear the differences?" or "How can you be so sure of what you're hearing?" Most people don't listen that much or that intently to start picking up on sounds.
Just off the top of my head, how do you legitimize:
1) A $5,000 CDP that can't read a CD but a $70 Sanyo boombox can. Deal went nuts trying to find a reason to blame me.
- A $1,500 CDP that failed during demo - on 2 separate occasions.
2) One guy uses "garden hose" size speaker wire then you've got Mapleshade wire that's 1/16" dia. How can both be the best when they are such polar opposites?
3) Companies who put together garbage with no engineering background with serious design flaws that Stereo mags rave about. There are too many companies who ride the high price wave with just fancy packaging because most people don't know the difference. If you want audio jewelry fine but if you're buying for sound, how do you really know?
I remember one salesman saying on line that if he had product he wanted to move, he would set it up real good in his store. He had othere stuff that sounded better but not when he set up the "bad" stuff well. How can you trust a industry like this?
Another example, I had a defective preamp. Fortunately I could compare to a good one soon thereafter. I don't think I could've heard the sonic degradation unless I had a good one to compare to, the differences were so small. Otherwise I'd still be happily listening to my defective preamp and never know it. I'm not saying only specs matter but at least it's a good place to start. You've got to have some kind of solid foundation to build upon. Subjective opinion is fine for one individual with one stereo but not for mass market, IMHO.
4) A 40 year old McIntosh 275 amp being close to state of the art even today. All the while stereo mags are finding big improvements in power amps every month. How can this be?
5) I had a dealer tell me how the speakers he stopped selling last year sounded like crap (very highly regarded, well engineered, strong audiophile following) but his new line is great. Do you think he told people they were crap when he was selling the line a year ago? Should I believe that he won't be calling the new line crap when it doesn't sell and he dumps it for something else next year?
I know people who would love to have a nice stereo but the risks are way too high. And you will lose thousands if you guess wrong. Unless you can solidly define what is out there and the differences between stuff, very few people are going to buy into it. |
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Well if anyone want's support for the observation that audiophiles are Whacko's look at the "Expensive Cables" thread....'nuf said. |
CWlondon, do you have any ideas how audio should be marketed?
(Yes, I do. Which I why I continue to contribute to this thread. And I could be available for consulting, if anyone would like some help. I am very expensive but I continue to give away some of my best ideas here for free.)
I'm commonly asked by non-audiophiles "Do you REALLY hear the differences?" or "How can you be so sure of what you're hearing?"
(Great audio is not for everyone. But it should be for a lot more people than the audio wackos reach.)
Just off the top of my head, how do you legitimize:
1) A $5,000 CDP that can't read a CD but a $70 Sanyo boombox can. Deal went nuts trying to find a reason to blame me.
- A $1,500 CDP that failed during demo - on 2 separate occasions.
(You can't, you shouldn't and you don't need to. Sell something else.)
2) One guy uses "garden hose" size speaker wire then you've got Mapleshade wire that's 1/16" dia. How can both be the best when they are such polar opposites?
(Some sports cars use V-8s, others turbo charge much smaller engines. They can all be great.)
3) Companies who put together garbage with no engineering background with serious design flaws that Stereo mags rave about. There are too many companies who ride the high price wave with just fancy packaging because most people don't know the difference. If you want audio jewelry fine but if you're buying for sound, how do you really know?
(This is another example still stuck in the old model. The audio mags trash Bose, but they still sell like hotcakes. Again, its about MARKETING)
I remember one salesman saying on line that if he had product he wanted to move, he would set it up real good in his store. He had othere stuff that sounded better but not when he set up the "bad" stuff well. How can you trust a industry like this?
(He sounds like a creep, and you are correct, you cannot necessarily trust an industry like this. If the industry became more sophisticated and trustworthy, these used car sales style prejudices would fade over time.)
Another example, I had a defective preamp. Fortunately I could compare to a good one soon thereafter. I don't think I could've heard the sonic degradation unless I had a good one to compare to, the differences were so small. Otherwise I'd still be happily listening to my defective preamp and never know it. I'm not saying only specs matter but at least it's a good place to start. You've got to have some kind of solid foundation to build upon. Subjective opinion is fine for one individual with one stereo but not for mass market, IMHO.
(Think more about the performance of sports cars, the differences in high priced kitchen appliances and the subtlety of wine, yet there are still powerful brands in all of these businesses.)
4) A 40 year old McIntosh 275 amp being close to state of the art even today. All the while stereo mags are finding big improvements in power amps every month. How can this be?
(It cannot be. I agree that not much is new - check out my "latest" system -- most of it is 20 years old. Your point about the mags is yet another example of how the industry sells BS instead of quality, while shooting themselves in the foot. This is why they are not succesful.)
5) I had a dealer tell me how the speakers he stopped selling last year sounded like crap (very highly regarded, well engineered, strong audiophile following) but his new line is great. Do you think he told people they were crap when he was selling the line a year ago? Should I believe that he won't be calling the new line crap when it doesn't sell and he dumps it for something else next year?
(You shouldnt believe anything he says. He is another example of why this industry is hopelessly stuck as a cottage industry, lousy business, run and promoted by wackos.)
I know people who would love to have a nice stereo but the risks are way too high. And you will lose thousands if you guess wrong. Unless you can solidly define what is out there and the differences between stuff, very few people are going to buy into it.
(I agree that the differences should be clear. But the differences are not what we debate in our geeked out forum. These products could be differentiated by a long list of things, many of which have nothing to do with how it sounds.)
Best of luck
Cwlondon |
I think a lot of the complaints against spending the $$$ we do for our listening pleasure is the music we listen to. My son has a pair of DOGG speakers that really fill his room out for the DOG music he listens to. I tried some of his music on my system and it was terrible. I tried my music on his system and it was terrible. So.......I think that if you want to listen to subwoofer music and the booming that goes along, then buy the cheap blaster speakers. If you want to listen to classic, jazz, or even early RNR, then get a good system....IMHO |
Because they write long responses not broken up into paragraphs for easier readability (especially on devices). |
Have you read this message board lately? |
Maybe your a wacko most people are not.HELLO!!!!!!! |
Have you checked the calendar? |
Hey, that’s nothing. Check out model railroaders sometime, dude.
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Because we are! ha, ha, ha...
ozzy
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Guys in their late 60's coming near to blows over which heavy metal
band was best are seen as nut jobs .
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Wisdom lies in choosing your insanity wisely. |
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There's nothing wrong with me that the next $150 fuse won't cure.
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An obsession is a very peculiar thing indeed. 🏅 |
Frank, Have you read "The Rules" - (of) Velominati? Similar could be put to Audiophilia. |
Just scrolled through listing photos of 24 homes of $million+ without seeing a single pair of high end speakers. A couple dedicated theaters that got a photo or two as opposed to 5-10 of the spa bathroom and 25 of the kitchen. I've attended Parade of Homes for years in many cities and, again, have never seen a decent audio system-lots of whole house, ceiling mounted speakers though. I was asked by the listing agent and a stager to remove my system the two times I've sold a home. I declined. My practice with any move has been the stereo is the last thing out of the place I'm exiting and the first thing set up in the new place. Yup, I've ended up sleeping on the floor for a night or two at times.
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