Recommendation for an audiophile speaker cord that is not "bright"?
A friend has loaned me the Nordost Valhalla I and II as well as Nordost Frey 2 cables. They are wonderful speaker cables but do emphasize the "brightness" of my system including my Wilson audio Sahsa 2 speakers.
Any suggestions? Would used Transparent cables provide a richer bottom end? What about Audience Reference?
Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated. - Thank you - Gerry
I can second the Audience recommendation in terms of tonal balance. However I’m not sure it will be a good match for Wilsons. Audience cables are fairly light gauge and Wilson speakers tend to be difficult (low impedance) loads and current hungry. I feel like I always see them with massive amps and garden hose cables. Something like Au24 SX may not let the speaker “breath” enough, but I’m sure Wilson owners and others can state with more certainty.
I like Cardas Clear and I think it’s one of their better cables, but as others have said it is not going to be as warm and sweet as the traditional Cardas sound. To me that’s a good thing because I find most Cardas to be a little rolled off and dull. Eg golden reference may sweeten things but I don’t think I’d be willing to sacrifice the life of the sound to get the tonal balance right.
One that I think might be worth trying is Crystal Cable. I’ve heard them in two very different systems and I was impressed with how detailed, open and natural both were, with not a hint of glare or brightness. One was with Audiovector SR6 speakers and a Devialet amp and it was super smooth and present. I don’t recall the model of cable but I believe it had a gold silver alloy. It did not strike me as bright as silver is wont to be - perhaps the gold is the trick. BTW, not surprised the Valhallas are burning your ears off. :) They can do great things in just the right system but seem super critical of any upper frequency energy.
Wilson Audio does voice their loudspeakers with Transparent Audio cabling. If able, attempt an audition w/ Transparent to compare against Nordost. What other gear is in your system currently?
I am a big proponent of simple twisted wires as speaker cables. I don't have mega-bucks equipment or speakers - BUT JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT: go down to your local electrical lighting/supply place and get lengths ( distance you need for speaker cable + 2') of 12g solid core copper wire, vinyl-jacketed. Take two lengths and twist them together. Leave ends stripped bare and fasten into place (if bi-wiring, obviously do two sets per speaker). Run your system for a good 300 hours non-stop - and for under $20 you may be presently surprised...
1. I doubt that is the tube amplifier, but you could be right. These speakers do have an impedance problem at low frequency (e,g, 100 Hz). I now use an ARC GS150, 8 KT150 tubes putting out 150 watts into 8 ohms. That might be a problem.
2. The room was designed and built not as an anechoic chamber, but it took 2 years with the help of an audio engineer from the University of Michigan. I doubt that this is the problem.
3. Since the plain old copper wires sound much better (no "brightness"), with slightly less resolution, maybe I should stick with those.
The system is: Dedicated mains --> custom-built audiophile wall receptacle--> Nordost Valhalla power cord --> Nordost Qbase --> --> earth ground-->Nordost Frey 2 power cords--> McIntosh C22 preamplifier, high current one into adjacent ARC GS150 amplifier. Since I live in a rural area where I cannot stream, I use ripped or downloaded files from my work, or my brand new Esoteric K1X (bought it in Tokyo this fall) as the CD/SACD front end for those hard disks. It has a Cybershaft (not Shunyata, my apologies) master clock synced into the K1X using a Shunyata 50 ohm Sigma clock cable. The interconnects are also Shunyata Sigma XLRs. The speakers are Shasha 2 / DAWs. I also use a Nordost QPoint under the McIntosh preamp (greatly improved the audio quality). I am open to suggestions...
If those expensive wires are causing your amp to be unstable, then the low cost copper wires will be better. You may be confusing "detail" for artificial high frequencies. Most claims about high end wires is marketing, but highly capacitive wires can make amplifiers unstable.
If it is bass de-emphasis, that is harder to address without an amplifier change or tone controls.
Sounds like your room is well designed, but a wide dispersion speaker can seem bright where a narrow one does not. Frequency response is on axis but we hear room response.
The amp instability can be measured in minutes with an oscilloscope and a signal generator. The bass de-emphasis can be detected by swapping out for a good high current amp, and a room response issue with a measurement microphone and something like REW. Not sure who you know who can help, but may be a better path than buy and try with unpredictable results.
Ruraltrauma- I might have missed it but I still don't see where you told us the speaker cables you tried that you thought sounded OK. That is kind of important. If you tried a brand that does not have the brightness in your system you should consider moving up their line. Many manufacturers try and voice their cables with the same "house sound".
I use twisted copper cables without terminators. The system sounds better, so that's where I may end up (at the beginning, pointed in the right direction).
I am borrowing some hi Z (high pass roll-off?) Transparent reference cables to try out today.
Stay away from silver plated copper cables. I've have good luck with just pure copper. Verastarr makes a very good pure copper flat cable. Love them. Really helped with the brightness I was getting before and still delivers all the detail your system can deliver.
op-if you haven't dropped dead from reading all this yet, good work. I too need a less forward top end for my ears. I met Ray Kimber at RMAF last Sept. He made me a pair of the 8's custom split. 5 strands go to the woofer and 3 to the mid/upper. all copper. About $300 as I recall. Love them. I was shopping the Cardas market before Kimber as they have a rep for being softer up top. But those will cost you 2-3X what the Kimbers do. No silver or Nodoze for you.
I’ve also fought against overall brightness with metal domes and DAC direct into SS amp, and had Eclipse 7 speaker cables before upgrading to Cardas Clear. Either could work for you. The eclipse had more dynamics and midbass, but the Clear is just better overall and not bright nor dull. The treble is really extended and clean and it has great low bass. The eclipse had a slight hardness or glare in the low-mid treble which became obvious in comparison.
Honestly, I would suggest trading out that Vahalla PC for a Cardas Clear which I also have on my ML 532H amp. You may lose a little in clarity, but man, what you will gain in terms of system balance. This trade will actually earn you money. At a recent audio show, I noted that Cardas Clear was a very popular choice. I've never liked Transparent, but have only a couple short experiences in showrooms. Good Luck!
Going from some generic twisted copper cables without terminators to a $2000+ per meter speaker cable is quite a jump. You should experiment more in the low end before you take the plunge. Who knows you might find something you like along the way.
Like others have mentioned I would avoid all plated cables for now and stick with pure copper. All of the plated speaker cables I tried either sound too bright or harsh with my system (YMMV). I would also try some solid core cables instead of the usual stranded construction. Get a pair of the Audioquest Type 4 "no frills" cables audioadvisor sells and see what what you think. For me they improved the bass and low end punch vs a simple twisted stranded pair. They also had a pleasant midrange and I didn’t notice significant brightening in the treble.
Considering the amount you are willing to spend trying it should be a no brainer. You can get an 8 ft pair with bananas for $110 shipped. Then if you like it work up the Audioquest solid line. They should have the same voice. https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AQT4NF&opt=474|492|494|498
I'll add a third recommendation for Analysis Plus Cables . In searching for cables I first looked for a company with Proof of function and genuine science and engineering . And yes, I was impressed NASA chose their speaker cables for a special project they had . After that I saw AP's solo crystal interconnects were most highly recommended and their silver oval 2 speaker cables as well as the larger big silver oval speaker cables had highest approval . I do not find their silver speaker cables bright with my open baffle Spatials and the solo crystal ic's are just magical . That does it for me . I cannot imagine better than what I have now for cables . BTW , balanced connections with XLR are the future of high-end sound , IME . Pro level . I don't believe in using cables for tone control . Best new price can be found here :
cguitargear777 vendor on EBay Used can also be found in the usual places .
"There is complex interaction among amp/speakers/speaker cable. "
Nothing complex about this, it is all about opening up so the amp can breathe freely. And there is only one way to do it right, hook up some thick solid core copper conductors.. How much is enough? No power-conductor on the secondary site should be less than 9awg on smaller systems, 7awg on a fullrange system. Bi- and tri-wiring opens up a good system quite a bit.
OldHvyMec, you`re on the right track with your thinking.
And your reasoning for 7awg? ... any idea the resistance of a voice coil? How about the variation from one speaker to another? Does length of the run come into play at all?
This is hand waving with little to no justification leading others astray.
What’s up with all these “scientists “ recently posting on Audiogon forums? Easy to spot: zero feedback on AGon, and brand new accounts. And same pseudo science rhetoric
What up with all these easily spooked golden ears. Easily spotted because anytime anyone suggests that they are biased by their eyes, they get all antsy and rush to their keyboards. It’s like they can’t figure out how to have a different forum account and sell/but account.
They also like to use the term pseudo science even though they would not know science even if it hit them with a rotting fish.
Those book smart guys are why audio is better today then it has ever been. Those book smart guys (that also often play instruments) do blind tests to show that people do like a flat response.
The people who refuse to pick up a book ... They keep making the same old mistakes.
I would rather enjoy all types of music on my system and get drawn into the music than worry about a flat response. Even if it is flat coming out of the speakers which is almost impossible, the room interactions will not make it flat. If the music coming out of the speakers were truly flat, most wouldn't like it.
Thyname spout all you like, but actual tests by real experts like Toole and others show that flat response is the right one. The BBC dip is to compensate for typical room effects to get flat room response.
audiozenology114 posts12-21-2019 12:19amAnd your reasoning for 7awg? ... any idea the resistance of a voice coil? How about the variation from one speaker to another? Does length of the run come into play at all?
This is hand waving with little to no justification leading others astray. ------------------
Years of research. Resistance of a voice coil? The voicecoil is not a part of this, it is the reciever. Power doesn`t run back to the amp as some thinks, it is "burned off" in the voicecoils.
Strange this, while running fat pc`s audiophiles finds it hard to understand that all wiring on the secondary low current site must be quite a bit thicker than their pc`s.
On one side I know that most of you are to far out in the hifi-jungle to ever understand what you are into, but incase someone should be humble enough to try out my advices I`ll give them here for a while, some moore weeks mybe before I`ll give you up.
Have you ever wondered why components like this is avaiable? Do you have any experience with filtercomponents on this level? What kind of wiring would you use to connect it?
So pretty much you are ignoring that voice coil resistance and impedance is part of the circuit ....right, gotcha. So basically that 7awg number is made up.
And no, I don't wonder why components like that exist. They exist because people will buy them. Many will even convince themselves and others that a very small different in resistance is critical compared to large DC resistance and/or the large output impedance of the tube amplifiers they reference in the marketing blurb.
How "humble" of you .... advice without anything to back it up, is worth ....
On one side I know that most of you are to far out in the hifi-jungle to
ever understand what you are into, but incase someone should be humble
enough to try out my advices I`ll give them here for a while, some moore
weeks mybe before I`ll give you up.
Quite an interesting discussion. A few things on my end:
1. My current speaker cables are labeled "Transparent high performance 10-2 10 AWG (upgradeable)." I was going to try some used Transparent REF RSC8 (MM2) ("high z", apparently designed for high impedance amplifiers), but the same dealer wants to charge me the full price for a tryout, so I decided against that option (it is not their fault, it is their business model); 2. I use the word "resolution" as in light microscopy. That is, the ability to discriminate 2 signals that are close together. So my objective is to increase the resolution of the system, but it may be that I need to change other components in the system as well. I try and change one variable at a time; 3. I do believe that changing speaker cables may represent the lowest priority in terms of audio reproduction; 4. My next step may be to using the lending library at the Cable Company.
Oldhevymec - the older McIntosh preamps are good - my colleagues are from the Ann Arbor branch of the University of Michigan, not MSU FWIW...
I live in rural Michigan...I do miss 30 years ago on the web with the first USENET groups...thank you for all of the advice and am always eager for the feedback! - the old OP
Stereo5, w.r.t. flat response: This is one of the major goals of room acoustics ... to achieve a flat frequency response. Audiophile eschew tone controls, but then place speakers in a somewhat or poorly treated room ... and that room is tone control, complete with phase (almost like an electronic one).
Issues with fidelity aside, most people do prefer the results of the amplitude correction applied by AV processors and receivers. Why? ... because it achieves a somewhat flat response. Even better is to accomplish it at the speaker and with room tuning (while correcting other maladies).
Sorry to derail a bit ruraltraumsurgeon. It sounds like you are on the right path, but I would caution you not to confuse high frequency emphasis from amplifier stability with "detail". There are better controlled ways of emphasizing high frequencies if that is what you prefer. Amplifier instability would not be my preferred method.
Oldhvymec: I am not offended Oldhvymec, but I also don't agree with unfairlane either with his suggestions, his conclusions, or his statement that somehow he has the "truth" and we should be blessed to have that truth shared with us. The problem with that "truth" is it is appears based on a limited experience set, with conclusions made based on correlation, and not necessarily causation. People often say "well I figured this out from 25 years in the hobby" and that is great. Would it come as as shock to know that people who design this equipment will often test more variation in a week or month that a hobbyist, even an active one, over their whole life? Their knowledge set also allows them to better determine causation as well, not simply correlation.
Online, others have been critical of the combination of this McIntosh preamp with an ARC power amplifier. It may be that a solid-state power amplifier is better (avoiding the controversy of A, versus AB, versus D, versus tubes).
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